ethics of selling

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Archive 2008 · ethics of selling

andrew81
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p.1 #1 · ethics of selling

I just my MKII from someone on the boards and though it works and takes great photos. The seller was less than honest in his description of the unit. There is a lot of dust and scratches on the rear LCD and lots of body scratches. Never mentioned and the photos disguise this fact nicely.The hotshoe has black paint on it I just discovered and some bigger body dings have been painted. Again not mentioned and no photos of it.
I paid $1575 inc. postage and paypal (to a US address) so i guess it is a bargain but would have liked to have been told before I opened the box. It is a bit of a let down.
I am not naming the person but rather posing the question as to the ethics of selling 2nd hand Canon gear (to keep it Canon related)
Do you have to tell the buyer EVERYTHING about the camera or is it just part of buying 2nd hand. Is it ok to paint over paint chips and not mention them?

Mar 17, 2008 at 11:54 PM

Antony
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p.1 #2 · ethics of selling

Well Andrew, I think that if the seller has not stated the body was in mint condition, and you didn't ask, and it works perfectly then it's a case of buyer beware. If a mint condition body was your goal then you should have enquired accordingly. At the price you paid and without any misstatement from the seller I believe he has not acted unethically. Personally, I would have given a full description, but that's me. You wouldn't complain when buying a second hand car if you later find out it had been repaired at some stage as long as it worked correctly.

After all, it is a working camera, cosmetics are just that - cosmetic. I understand that you made no claim to require a mint copy and stated your goal was the best deal - I think the seller can rest easy and perhaps in future you should simply reassess what your priorities are. If cosmetics are important say so, and ask the questions.

Edited by Antony on Mar 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM GMT

Edited on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:05 AM

rosscova
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p.1 #3 · ethics of selling

Ethically, I think a seller should disclose all details about an item that they know may have an effect for the buyer. If they have covered dings and scratches up with paint, they clearly know that it would have an effect. It doesn't matter what the price was, the seller should fully disclose any signs of damage or wear.

Personally, when selling, I like to find the biggest scratch or ding on any item, even if it's almost non-existent, and describe it, accompanied by a clear image. That way the buyer can see for themselves what I mean when I say "little to no sign of wear/damage".

Your seller won't necessarily agree, but I think they've definitely been unethical.

Ross

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:06 AM

Vivek
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p.1 #4 · ethics of selling

For me, if I am the seller, it is better to tell whatever _negatives_ the item has than not to... It just helps me sleep better at night. I can also not be accused of less than complete disclosure.

For some other folks, a few I have dealt with too, it is not necessarily the case; they believe that the buyer needs to ask all questions he needs / wants answers for.

-- V

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #5 · ethics of selling

Antony wrote:
Well Andrew, I think that if the seller has not stated the body was in mint condition, and you didn't ask, and it works perfectly then it's a case of buyer beware. If a mint condition body was your goal then you should have enquired accordingly. At the price you paid and without any misstatement from the seller I believe he has acted ethically.

After all, it is a working camera, cosmetics are just that - cosmetic. I understand that you made no claim to require a mint copy and stated your goal was the best deal - I think the seller can rest easy and perhaps in future you should simply reassess what your priorities are. If cosmetics are important say so, and ask the questions.
You are right. I never wanted to pay for a mint condition MKII. My problem is with the blatant cover up of things like hot shoe marks and other marks. The dust behind the LCD is the biggest disappointment.
Thanks for your input. This isnt BTW a debate as to whether the seller did me wrong. The negatives of the sale dont outweigh the negatives.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:10 AM

Tomagado
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p.1 #6 · ethics of selling

I'm with the full disclosure crowd. I've sold a few lenses on here, and if the glass wasn't flawless or wasn't a perfect copy, I said so. I'm thinking of selling my Mk II soon, and know the first things I'd say : Has thin paint around the neck strap connectors and has a single small mark inside the LCD cover. Oh, and I'd have to mention it has a new shutter in it, just because I couldn't sleep at night knowing I cheapened myself to make a few extra bucks.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:12 AM

Antony
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p.1 #7 · ethics of selling

Andrew, refer to your original WTB request:

"After much umming and arring. Im making the switch to the 1 series cameras.

Am looking for a very very good deal on the MK1, body condition doesn't matter, obviously it must be in good working order and under 20k clicks.

Open to all MKII's"

The seller has obviously taken you at your word. I don't believe in this situation he has acted unethically - you stated that you didn't care the body condition.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:15 AM

Antony
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p.1 #8 · ethics of selling

If we are talking about what is ethically right, then yes, if he feels it would influence your purchase decision then full disclosure would ethically be required. However, based upon your own WTB that wasn't the case.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:17 AM

geniousc
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p.1 #9 · ethics of selling

Antony wrote:
Well Andrew, I think that if the seller has not stated the body was in mint condition, and you didn't ask, and it works perfectly then it's a case of buyer beware. If a mint condition body was your goal then you should have enquired accordingly. At the price you paid and without any misstatement from the seller I believe he has not acted unethically. Personally, I would have given a full description, but that's me. You wouldn't complain when buying a second hand car if you later find out it had been repaired at some stage as long as it worked correctly.

After all, it is a working camera, cosmetics are just that - cosmetic. I understand that you made no claim to require a mint copy and stated your goal was the best deal - I think the seller can rest easy and perhaps in future you should simply reassess what your priorities are. If cosmetics are important say so, and ask the questions.

Edited by Antony on Mar 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM GMT

For me, that is BS!!!! disclose all period! That's what makes BS tick, how would you like to be on the recieving end of that camera? Better yet, what if everybody selling on B&S did that?

Edited on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:19 AM

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:18 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #10 · ethics of selling

Antony wrote:
Andrew, refer to your original WTB request:

"After much umming and arring. Im making the switch to the 1 series cameras.

Am looking for a very very good deal on the MK1, body condition doesn't matter, obviously it must be in good working order and under 20k clicks.

Open to all MKII's"

The seller has obviously taken you at your word. I don't believe in this situation he has acted unethically - you stated that you didn't care the body condition.
I can see your point of view. However this was a MKII not a MK1. If this was a MK1 and I paid say $600 for it I would be happy as the MK1 is a back up. I really dont give a crap about body marks, it happens. I dont like that they have been covered up. There was also never a mention to the amount of dust behind the LCD which is a big thing I think. Something I certainly would mention.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:23 AM

Antony
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p.1 #11 · ethics of selling

geniousc wrote:

For me, that is BS!!!! disclose all period! That's what makes BS tick, how would you like to be on the recieving end of that camera? Better yet, what if everybody selling on B&S did that?

Well the seller didn't post on buy and sell, the buyer did. The buyer stated that condition was not an issue, he just wanted the best deal. The seller sent photos. The buyer didn't ask any questions. The deal was well under market price. So no, I don't think it is BS. We are talking about a few dust specks, a couple of minor dings and some touch up paint that the seller may very well have used for himself. If these were major matters then Andrew would presumably have addressed them with the seller.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:23 AM

Antony
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p.1 #12 · ethics of selling

That said, I understand what you are saying, and personally I desacribe everything in full detail. I think he just took you at your word Andrew.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:24 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #13 · ethics of selling

oh i obviously realise this is an older camera and for $1500 I probably wont get a camera without LCD scratches. If I wanted that I would have been willing to pay $1900.

If he has knowingly acted unethically then things will worth themselves out i.e karma.
But it is interesting to see others views.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:26 AM

geniousc
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p.1 #14 · ethics of selling

Antony wrote:
geniousc wrote:

For me, that is BS!!!! disclose all period! That's what makes BS tick, how would you like to be on the recieving end of that camera? Better yet, what if everybody selling on B&S did that?

Well the seller didn't post on buy and sell, the buyer did. The buyer stated that condition was not an issue, he just wanted the best deal. The seller sent photos. The buyer didn't ask any questions. The deal was well under market price. So no, I don't think it is BS. We are talking about a few dust specks, a couple of minor dings and some touch up paint that the seller may very well have used for himself. If these were major matters then Andrew would presumably have addressed them with the seller.

Then, if that's the case you may have a point

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:27 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #15 · ethics of selling

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:28 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #16 · ethics of selling

Antony, while I appreciate your input here please dont speak for me. Especially when you arent giving out correct information!
The seller DID NOT RESPOND TO MY MK1 WTB
This is a CANON MARK II, NOT A MK1

So you are incorrect in saying that I said condition was not an issue.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Binh Ly
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p.1 #17 · ethics of selling

i can relate, i posted a wtb for a lens a while ago and asked the seller clearly if the lens has any marks or scratches or anything else that i should know about. seller says "glass is clean, everything is perfect except for 1 small scratch on barrel". so i go ok, i don't care much about a small scratch on the body.

well, when i got the lens, the damn front element had crap and dirt almost 1mm thick (no kidding) and it took a while for me to clean it all out (it's like it accumulated for years). then i discovered tiny wipe scratches on the front element (wtf

) and then the worse part is the pouch reeked of cigarette smoke. well i didn't want to go through the hassle of paying out of my pocket to ship it back so i just kept it, but was fairly disappointed. the only saving grace was that the lens was very sharp so i guess that made up for it a little.

i learned my lesson, next time i buy a lens there must be clear closeup pictures of everything especially the front element, no exceptions. people have different meaning to the word "mint" or "perfect" or whatever, and i hate it when they don't disclose that they smoke.

whenever i sell a lens, i take a picture of everything and it is very clear what the condition of the item is including all the scratches if any. that way there are no surprises of anything.

Edited on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM

geniousc
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p.1 #18 · ethics of selling

Have you noticed that every lens on B&S is sharp and a great copy yet sometimes the same sellers complain about front back focus issues.

Edited on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:42 AM

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:40 AM

Binh Ly
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p.1 #19 · ethics of selling

geniousc wrote:
Have you noticed that every lens on B&S is sharp and a great copy yet sometimes the same sellers complain about front back focus issues.

yeah i've noticed this once in a while. i have also seen people here say they bought a lens and it was soft and they unloaded it (very proudly i might add). it's very comical. if i had a lens that needed calibration, i would do everything i can to send it to canon and have it calibrated before i sell it to anybody. man that is just dishonest!

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:45 AM

matsuib
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p.1 #20 · ethics of selling

Binh Ly wrote:
yeah i've noticed this once in a while. i have also seen people here say they bought a lens and it was soft and they unloaded it (very proudly i might add). it's very comical. if i had a lens that needed calibration, i would do everything i can to send it to canon and have it calibrated before i sell it to anybody. man that is just dishonest!

This probably will be moved, since it's not Canon related per se, but...

I once sold a Sigma lens here that I wasn't happy with that I sent off to calibration, but I sold it with the full disclosure of why I sent it off and with the test images from Sigma it came back with. And I discounted it to reflect my thoughts.

I also have bought lenses here that people have told me there's a slight front or back focus, and they have similarly discounted so that I could send it off for calibration if need be. People are often pretty good on the boards.

Edited by matsuib on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:52 AM GMT

Edited on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:52 AM

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:51 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #21 · ethics of selling

well good news is that I love the camera despite its dirty appearance. Prob how my wife feels about me!

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:51 AM

Stunnaz
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p.1 #22 · ethics of selling

I'm not sure how the Buy&Sell works here, but I do a lot of buy and sell on Ebay. With Ebay, you check their feedback as well as recent transactions, and that should give you a good idea of what type of seller you're dealing with.

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:53 AM

radioblurs
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p.1 #23 · ethics of selling

andrew,

people keep saying you didn't ask any questions, etc.-since you never said that, can i ask: what did you ask? how did he/she respond?

from my end of it...it's one thing to get pics of a dinged up used camera-it's another thing to get pics of a painted over dinged up camera-if you can't see the dings, how do you ask the appropriate questions?-yes, you got a deal, but the seller was trying to hide something (i sure don't paint my cameras)-it would bother me too

daniel

Mar 18, 2008 at 12:55 AM

malice4you
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p.1 #24 · ethics of selling

I always disclose condition, in too much detail, for anything I sell. I also include massive detailed photos so any buyer can see exactly what they are getting. I always hope for the same from sellers, but if I don't get them, I don't really care. What's important is the quality of the images, not the exterior condition. If I paid a premium for a perfect condition item, and it came looking like it'd been dragged behind a car for 10 miles, then I'd complain. What DOES annoy me is people who use blurry cell phone photos to sell items - purchased a used knife that was WAY abused but the tiny 320x240 blurry cell phone camera photo made it look fine. But...I did not ask questions, so it is MY fault, not the seller's.

You got a nice camera for a pretty good price if you ask me. If the images coming out of the body are fine, then stop worrying about the exterior. If you're really that concerned, send it to canon and have them replace the back LCD cover for cheap, maybe get them to give you some touchup paint too. Probably won't cost that much... Otherwise, go out and shoot with a great body that you don't gotta worry about being the first to scuff it up.

My three 1D series and 20D have scratches, scuffs, etc....they have character. The photos coming out of the bodies are still great. Isn't that the important part?

Mar 18, 2008 at 01:02 AM

andrew81
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p.1 #25 · ethics of selling

he sent photos in answer to condition question which dont shot any of the scratches as there is enough contrast in the shot to hide the paint job on it.
I do concede I dont think i asked enough detailed questions. I wont be leaving negative feedback for the seller on FM as I know myself well enough to know I am often impulsive once I have made up my mind on getting something.

The question really is, should a seller reveal everything to a buyer.
It has EVERYTHING in the box and was even packed with the original foam bits. Buying from another country always has its downsides!

Mar 18, 2008 at 01:04 AM


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