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jeepman83706 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #1 · After second shooting some weddings... So I found an extremely helpful photographer in town that is going to allow me to second shoot with him this "season." My question is, after I spend time with him second shooting, do I: a) advertise on places like CL and offer free wedding photography and do this a handful of times so I get experience as the primary photographer or... b) start charging on my own (perhaps a lower price) even though I would have no experience as numero uno? TIA!! Jan 28, 2008 at 09:33 PM

mkweaver Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #2 · After second shooting some weddings... Would you bite the hand that feeds you? "An extremely helpful photographer" offers to help you and allow you to second shoot, then you want to cut him down by "offer free wedding photography" And, if you think you are worth nothing, then why do you think anyone would want you to shoot their wedding, even for free? If you work a season with a helpful photographer, then you should be able to judge by comparing your work with that photographer's work and see if you have learned enough to risk someone's once-in-a-lifetime event with your work! If you are, then charge what you are worth! If you haven't learned that much, then second shoot another season and learn some more! And don't undermine the industry by low-balling the pricing! Edited on Jan 28, 2008 at 09:45 PM Jan 28, 2008 at 09:44 PM

jeepman83706 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #3 · After second shooting some weddings... wow...how angry Only kidding! I guess my thought was that a B&G would most likely pass over someone who has never been a primary photographer. Maybe if my images are good enough as a second shooter, then maybe that wouldn't be the case. Something tells me though that brides are going to want experienced photogs aka those that have a few under their belt as the main photographer... Jan 28, 2008 at 10:24 PM

letenele Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #4 · After second shooting some weddings... Have confidence. If you see that your work is good, you should charge. If you do it for free, no one will have confidence in you, nor will they trust you with their event. Spend this season under the helpful photographer's wing, and then at the end of it have a sit down together and discuss how far you've advanced, what your next step should be, and how much your starting prices should be. Just because you don't have the experience of being the primary shooter, doesn't mean that you can't take gorgeous images. Don't undersell yourself. Jan 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM

hassy501 Offline [ X ] p.1 #5 · After second shooting some weddings... Regrouped and re thought my post.......i was way overboard on the other one..... Without knowing your background its hard to give you a definitive answer.....what is your schooling, experience, training, type of photography you have done, what gear do you own, any business training, marketing skills ? Are you artistic with natural skills with a creative eye and a fast learner or are you more mechanically inclined ? All of that comes into play in whether one season of second shooting is enough to open up your business...... Just having "some" photography skills is not enough to be successful.........if you have some other regular paying job then you will have a lot more leeway in the time it takes to be successful..........but if you are banking on being a full time wedding photographer depending on the money you make as your sole income, it doesn't happen overnight............. I personally know many wedding photographers who work out of there home, have average skills, are married with kids, second shot with good studios for a couple of years and they struggle to book 10 weddings a year. They dont advertise, dont market but expect clients to call....................it wont happen. Be realistic in your expectations and your skill level. Not everyone can be a successful wedding photographer simply because it seems easy and fun.......... Edited by hassy501 on Jan 29, 2008 at 01:54 PM GMT Edited on Jan 29, 2008 at 01:54 PM Jan 28, 2008 at 10:36 PM

jeepman83706 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #6 · After second shooting some weddings... letenele - thanks for your input. hassy - the original intent of my post, whether it was worded correctly or not, was to try and figure out how to go from second shooter to primary photographer, and what obstacles one might face from the B&G if one does not have the experience as the primary. simple as that. I'm not here to destroy your field Jan 28, 2008 at 10:42 PM

Mike Mahoney Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #7 · After second shooting some weddings... jeepman83706 wrote: So I found an extremely helpful photographer in town that is going to allow me to second shoot with him this "season." My question is, after I spend time with him second shooting, do I: a) advertise on places like CL and offer free wedding photography and do this a handful of times so I get experience as the primary photographer or... b) start charging on my own (perhaps a lower price) even though I would have no experience as numero uno? TIA!! A season of second shooting should get you enough experience to start on your own. I'd not do it for free though .. after your apprenticeship evaluate your portfolio relative to others in your area and charge accordingly. Good luck & enjoy. Jan 28, 2008 at 11:23 PM

Marcus Watts Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #8 · After second shooting some weddings... hassy501 wrote: You seem to think that second shooting for a season, (however many weddings that may be) now qualifies you to be a charging professional................. If you are shooting for one season with a photographer who is very good and you are a disciplined learner you may well be able to shoot on your own. Just make sure that couples have a clear idea of what to expect with a broad sampling of your work. not just your best shots. Never ever work for free for a couple. No matter how bad you are. let them find someone better than you for the money if that is going to happen but if you get them only by working for nothing then ruining someones photos will not be more moral because you did not charge. Working for free as a second shooter (if that is what you are doing) is acceptable in that you are really trading your time and effort for education. There are plenty of charging professionals right here on FM who are not great photographers. I don't deny them the right to be making a start but i will always encourage anyone at any level to constantly aim to improve both their photography and business skills, myself included. Can you get to WPPI btw? Edited on Jan 29, 2008 at 01:18 PM Jan 29, 2008 at 01:14 PM

Cathy Yount Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #9 · After second shooting some weddings... hassy501 wrote: You seem to think that second shooting for a season, (however many weddings that may be) now qualifies you to be a charging professional................. At first, when you are shooting for the helpful photog, you're going to learn things along the way that will teach you the artistic side of photography, the actual images, but you are also going to pick up on the business sense as well. True, it won't be like a full-blown class, but don't go into this thinking you won't learn anything about the business side of it. Pay attention and take notes for what works for that business and what doesn't. The best thing I ever did for my business was to get inside the mind of the bride. I actually started my business when I got married. I took what I liked and didn't like from my own photographer and applied it to my business. That was a big chunk of the business sense I needed. My husband has a BSBA, so he takes care of a big chunk of the business side of it, but I've learned a ton of stuff from him as well and he's continuing to teach me. A lot of it is common sense on what your customer wants and needs, how to treat a customer, how to make your business grow, and how to act in a challenging situation (irate brides mad at something you can't control, someone trying to undermine you in any way, etc.). It's all about paying attention to the current opportunities that you have and garnering as much as you can from each experience. Top that off with a few business classes and you're set. I agree with all here who say that you can't make it on photography alone...you HAVE to know the business side of it, or you won't survive. In this business, the minute you stop growing and stop looking for a challenge, that's when your business will go down the tube. Jan 29, 2008 at 01:54 PM

hassy501 Offline [ X ] p.1 #10 · After second shooting some weddings... jeepman83706 wrote: letenele - thanks for your input. hassy - the original intent of my post, whether it was worded correctly or not, was to try and figure out how to go from second shooter to primary photographer, and what obstacles one might face from the B&G if one does not have the experience as the primary. simple as that. I'm not here to destroy your field Well the first obstacle would be to get a business license and start a legal business.If your skills are good enough to shoot your own weddings then there will be no obstacle,,,,,,,,,have your website, sample albums and dvd slideshows to show your client.........that should convince them.......if not, then its back to the drawing board............ Simply "saying" that you are the greatest is not enough........theres thousands out there saying the same thing.........prove it to them........... Jan 29, 2008 at 01:58 PM

hassy501 Offline [ X ] p.1 #11 · After second shooting some weddings... jeepman83706 wrote: So I found an extremely helpful photographer in town that is going to allow me to second shoot with him this "season." My question is, after I spend time with him second shooting, do I: a) advertise on places like CL and offer free wedding photography and do this a handful of times so I get experience as the primary photographer or... b) start charging on my own (perhaps a lower price) even though I would have no experience as numero uno? TIA!! Whats your experience in photography and your background ? What gear do you own ? Do you have a website ? Jan 29, 2008 at 02:00 PM

dmacmillan Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #12 · After second shooting some weddings... jeepman83706 wrote: So I found an extremely helpful photographer in town that is going to allow me to second shoot with him this "season." Don't get ahead of yourself. I take it from what you've said you haven't photographed weddings outside of friends and family, if that. You're exceptionally lucky. There are far more photographers who want to break in the business by being second shooters than there are opportunities. Be careful not to betray the trust that's been given you. It will not only damage you but also those who come behind you. Spend this season concentrating on being the best darned second shooter you can be. Do anything you're asked. You can show initiative, but only after you ask permission. Keep you mouth shut and your eyes and ears open. At the end of the season, you'll have a much better idea how to position yourself in the market. You'll also have a much more realistic understanding of the business of wedding photography. How long has the photographer willing to take you on been in the business? How many weddings do they do in a year? What kind of work do they do, shoot and scoot, mid range or high class expensive? Doug Jan 29, 2008 at 03:31 PM

jeepman83706 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #13 · After second shooting some weddings... I appreciate everyone's replies. I have no intention but to learn as much as humanly possible from assisting this photographer, both from a photographic standpoint and from a business standpoint. I have a strong network of friends, some of whom have started and are running successful small businesses who have offered to help in that regards if it comes to that. I really got interested in wedding photography a couple years ago when my best friend got married in Indiana, and his photographer was Kevin Swan (the guy who does KISS albums). I actually have been in contact with him a bit, picking his brain on all sorts of stuff, and he also has been extremely helpful. Anyway, since my best friend's wedding, I have been reading all I can, dumped my P&S, and got myself a DSLR. I have been practicing as much as I can and am in the process of acquiring the right equipment - 70-200 2.8, 17-55 2.8 are at the top of my list!! Right now, all I want to do is take as many pictures as I can of weddings, engagements, etc, building up a portfolio and building a website, and learn as much as I can about the business side of things. Then we'll see if I can go somewhere with it. Thanks again for all of your replies. Jan 29, 2008 at 04:22 PM

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