['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

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momv630
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p.52 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

apdieb wrote:
Are you focusing and then recomposing? The af point is showing which point was used...if you lock a subject and then move prior to shutter release, your review will show the point used (regardless of where it was when it locked).

Nope, I purposely stay on the subject to do this test. It's always one red square to the left.

Mar 25, 2008 at 11:21 AM

stan_g
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p.52 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

My 523xxx has never been touched by anyone, and I still believe that the 1d2 I previously owned (20,000 images), grabbed focus faster in one shot. HOWEVER, after over 14,000 images, I have unlearned/re-learned the way the 1d3 acts and how to set CF's, and am very happy that I did not send mine in for adjustment, then mirror-fix, then whatever's next. The main difference I notice is that in one shot, the mk3 hesitates momentarily, grabs focus, then shoots all in about 1/4 to 1/2 a second. The mk2 will be done in less time without a perceptible hesitation. Also the mk2 won't shoot if it doesn't grab focus wheras the mk3 will, often grabbing something usually in the background if I automatically assume it's on the right subject. Still I like so many other qualities of the mk3 including IQ I won't give it up.

I have a question for apdieb. From what you said I gather it doesn't hold the prefocus when it takes the pic, or did yu mean it holds the prefocus but indicates a different point on the record.

momv630 wrote:
apdieb wrote:
Are you focusing and then recomposing? The af point is showing which point was used...if you lock a subject and then move prior to shutter release, your review will show the point used (regardless of where it was when it locked).

Nope, I purposely stay on the subject to do this test. It's always one red square to the left.

Edited on Mar 25, 2008 at 01:08 PM

Mar 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM

lidesun
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p.52 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
after over 14,000 images, I have unlearned/re-learned the way the 1d3 acts and how to set CF's,

Can you tell us how you set your CF to get the best result at ONE HSOT mode other than the stand CF..

And any experiences of how to shoot with Mark III ...

I am very interested at your findings....and sure will help those troubled by the Mark III's AF issue.

Thanks

Edited on Mar 25, 2008 at 01:27 PM

Mar 25, 2008 at 01:24 PM

stan_g
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p.52 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

in the way of explaination. I previously had cameras that used the same basic AF system of EOS3, 1V, 1d, and 1d2, and had found the fine tuning I liked and a "feel" for when, what, and how, that system worked for me.

The mk3 is way different and changing expectations was a slow process for me and it took me 10,000 shots to become comfortable (not satisfied) with the mk3 AF. I set:
C.Fn III, 2 = slow
C.Fn III, 7 = +1 (global microadjustment)
C.Fn III, 8 = 1 (left, right expansion assist)
C.Fn III, 14 = 1 (AF assist beam fire disable)
C.Fn III, 16 = 10, 5 (continuous high and low f/s)

I also set
C.Fn II, 2 = 1 (high iso NR enable)
C.Fn I, 3 = H, 100 (expand high iso to 6400)

I find that if your not used to the III's AF and don't compensate somehow ( ie. slower to mash the shutter release), the camera tends to lock focus on a higher contrast subject in the distance.

If you're coming from a Canon body other that a 1d series, the mkIII's AF is impressive and you just get used to it without dimished expectations.

Edited on Mar 25, 2008 at 02:11 PM

Mar 25, 2008 at 02:03 PM

Jeff
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p.52 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Necip, considering the fact that RG repeated the tests over and over with the same results (i.e. the MkIIn fared significantly better in each round), I don't see how conducting your test proves anything in regard to comparing the MkIIn and MkIII. If the test required the tested cameras to be mounted on a bracket with the same subject at the same time with the same angle of view, etc., etc. (to get 'valid' results), one could statistically assume that the MkIII would have performed better in at least one round of tests due to his 'inconsistent methods', but it hasn't.

I'm not discounting that what you are saying is true, I'm simply pointing out that it may not be relevant to comparing two cameras under the same environmental conditions, in my opinion. The heat being radiated off of turf fields (and other similar surfaces) has been a long-recognized confounder of AF systems.

Mar 25, 2008 at 02:12 PM

Colin Key
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p.52 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Glen_C wrote:

i can't imagine using a 1 in "one shot" unless you are constantly manually focus adjusting w/ the lens in AF mode.

I do not understand this statement - can you explain?

Nor do I understand the various other references to the fact that "anything moving should be shot in AI Servo" - e.g. dance shots.

The Artificial Intelligence focusing system is intended to predict where a subject, which is moving towards or away from you, will be when you press the shutter button. The excellent Swan shots by Necip are a good example of where AI Servo is useful, if not necessary.

Most BIF shots have the subject moving across the frame at more or less constant range. When this is the case I shoot in One Shot mode. Why people shoot static subjects in AI Servo just defeats me; they are asking the camera to do something which is not required and can be counter-productive.

Colin

Mar 25, 2008 at 02:13 PM

lidesun
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p.52 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
C.Fn III, 8 = 1 (left, right expansion assist)

Even for ONE SHOT mode, you still set the focus point l/r expansion, that's something new.....

Mar 25, 2008 at 02:16 PM

Jeff
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p.52 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
in the way of explaination. I previously had cameras that used the same basic AF system of EOS3, 1V, 1d, and 1d2, and had found the fine tuning I liked and a "feel" for when, what, and how, that system worked for me.

The mk3 is way different and changing expectations was a slow process for me and it took me 10,000 shots to become comfortable (not satisfied) with the mk3 AF. I set:
C.Fn III, 2 = slow
C.Fn III, 7 = +1 (global microadjustment)
C.Fn III, 8 = 1 (left, right expansion assist)
C.Fn III, 14 = 1 (AF assist beam fire disable)
C.Fn III, 16 = 10, 5 (continuous high and low f/s)

I also set
C.Fn II, 2 = 1 (high iso NR enable)
C.Fn I, 3 = H, 100 (expand high iso to 6400)

I find that if your not used to the III's AF and don't compensate somehow ( ie. slower to mash the shutter release), the camera tends to lock focus on a higher contrast subject in the distance.

If you're coming from a Canon body other that a 1d series, the mkIII's AF is impressive and you just get used to it without dimished expectations.

Considering how many AF variables there with the MkIII's custom functions, you didn't end up changing very many of them in order to 'dial you camera in' over the course of 10,000 images. Only two of the C.Fn's above related to AF, and some of the others (as chosen) will only serve to slow your camera down.

I'm glad you have a functioning MkIII, but after everything that so many have been through with the MkIII, to suggest that some magical combination of custom settings will solve the cameras AF woes is overly-optimistic, at best.

-Jeff

PS: Do you know all those people on the street (and in stores) that you've posted pictures of on your Flickr account? You've got some interesting stuff there.

Mar 25, 2008 at 02:29 PM

Bruce Sawle
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p.52 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Mar 25, 2008 at 04:56 PM

stan_g
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p.52 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I wasn't suggesting there is a magical combination of settings, someone asked me to share. I also am amazed that, for my needs, the only CFn I have set that really affects AF is the side expansion. I have also decided I was lucky not to have problems as much as many have. I have, in the first 10,000 exposures, played with everything I could think of and took several other's suggestions on these boards, and boiled it down to just 2. Perhaps 3.

I even "borrowed" my old 1d2 for two days and tested extensively and compared. That proved to me that what I suspected was true for me. I could mash focus a fleeting subject with the mk2 and it would either not take the picture at all, or take it with a high probability of my subject being in focus. The mk3 has a different personality. It will often grab focus on something in the background if it doesn't grab what I was after and I don't discover this until later on the computer.

With either 1d I'm not convinced that the settings are so exactly for what is listed and not affecting anything else. There was a time before the latest firmware that it was suspected that if you had many personal settings chosen, they worked against each other. That idea seems to have gone away with the latest firmware. I have noticed an incremental improvement as each is issued.

The answer to the question, "Do you know all those people on the street?" is no. I am not an active pro and don't sell photos anymore so I tend to not worry about knowing everyone. I do try to not post pics that would offend anyone except my own friends and relatives. They are for the most part flattered and if asked, I take them off.

Have a good day all and I hope those of you having more problems than I and depend on your camera to make a living, will find Canon helpful in achieving solutions. I tend not to expect much from corporations towards that end. I really enjoy photography especially now that it's just a hobby.

Stan Gephart

necip; Wow, great batch of captures!!

Edited on Mar 25, 2008 at 05:47 PM

Mar 25, 2008 at 05:43 PM

stan_g
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p.52 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Not new. I don't remember when expansion point assist started for one shot but I discovered it I believe on my film 1V and have used it ever since. Although not as much of an improvement on the mk3 as older models.

lidesun wrote:
stan_g wrote:
C.Fn III, 8 = 1 (left, right expansion assist)

Even for ONE SHOT mode, you still set the focus point l/r expansion, that's something new.....

Mar 25, 2008 at 05:52 PM

stan_g
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p.52 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

What is it? I'll try anything.

Bruce Sawle wrote:

there is a custom function for to shortened the shutter release time lag.

Mar 25, 2008 at 05:58 PM

Photon
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p.52 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
What is it? I'll try anything.

Bruce Sawle wrote:

there is a custom function to shorten the shutter release time lag.

C.Fn IV-13, set to 1

Mar 25, 2008 at 06:27 PM

Photon
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p.52 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
Not new. I don't remember when expansion point assist started for one shot but I discovered it I believe on my film 1V and have used it ever since. Although not as much of an improvement on the mk3 as older models.

lidesun wrote:
stan_g wrote:
C.Fn III, 8 = 1 (left, right expansion assist)

Even for ONE SHOT mode, you still set the focus point l/r expansion, that's something new.....

I think maybe what lidesun means is that expansion is more often used when shooting fast action with continuous AF. When using one shot, we typically want to be as sure as possible about exactly where the AF point lies on the subject, so it can be useful to disable expansion point assist.

Mar 25, 2008 at 06:29 PM

R Longenbach
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p.52 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

apdieb wrote:
For now, the jury is still out...Canon may do something to gain my trust back...we'll see. I am not in a situation at the moment where I have to make that decision YET.

Well I made that decision shortly after the March 5 announcement. Still having Servo problems after the "fix" yet it's the best AF to date! My old EOS-3 did better. So I've sold everything at a decent loss and left Canon after 10 years, more if you count the years before I started using an autofocus SLR (Canon FtB). I got my Edsel back from the third service trip, and guess what - submirror not adjusted properly. So either: the fix wasn't done right, or...the submirror failed (again) after the fix. I can't trust the camera to take in-focus pictures anymore, so that's why I sold everything and walked away. (and on a side note, my backup P&S which I hadn't used in over a year was DOA when I got it ready for something during my cameraless time this month)

Mar 25, 2008 at 08:08 PM

Glen_C
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p.52 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Sure, In AI-SERVO you can't really MF a lens (that is FTM) as it will constantly readjust (unless you have a dedicated focus button which many don't like including myself). So there you need to flip over to MF or ONE-SHOT to override the focus.

For me, every time that shutter snaps i want the latest, best, most accurate focus (unless i choose to manually override). AI-SERVEO tracks the AF point which i manually choose for EVERY shot. the 1D models can (or could) handle this. it has two processors to track the focus.

20/30D... not so much.

that said, i can see using "one shot" or "whatever shot" to get a 1DmkIII to focus like a 1DmkII if needed -- whatever it takes.

But AI SERVO should be the best choice for almost everything except tripod photography of still objects. If anyone has some reference reading to educate me further i'm all game.

Colin Key wrote:
Glen_C wrote:
i can't imagine using a 1 in "one shot" unless you are constantly manually focus adjusting w/ the lens in AF mode.

I do not understand this statement - can you explain?

Nor do I understand the various other references to the fact that "anything moving should be shot in AI Servo" - e.g. dance shots.

The Artificial Intelligence focusing system is intended to predict where a subject, which is moving towards or away from you, will be when you press the shutter button. The excellent Swan shots by Necip are a good example of where AI Servo is useful, if not necessary.

Most BIF shots have the subject moving across the frame at more or less constant range. When this is the case I shoot in One Shot mode. Why people shoot static subjects in AI Servo just defeats me; they are asking the camera to do something which is not required and can be counter-productive.

Colin

Mar 25, 2008 at 08:26 PM

Glen_C
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p.52 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
I even "borrowed" my old 1d2 for two days and tested extensively and compared. That proved to me that what I suspected was true for me. I could mash focus a fleeting subject with the mk2 and it would either not take the picture at all, or take it with a high probability of my subject being in focus.

FYI - as most reading are probably aware, this is a personal function (to allow shutter release before AF is locked or not) on both cameras.

Mar 25, 2008 at 08:31 PM

mbellot
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p.52 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Glen_C wrote:
AI-SERVO tracks the AF point which i manually choose for EVERY shot. the 1D models can (or could) handle this. it has two processors to track the focus.

Glen,

I have a different impression of the facts you state above.

1. There are two processors, but only one is dedicated to focus. The other handles "the rest" of the camera stuff. The xxD and xxxD series pack all the functions into a single processor, which is why they have lower performance focus systems.

2. AI Servo does not (strictly speaking) "track" the subject to keep it in focus. It is attempting (via software) to predict where the focus point will be in real time based on historical information. Thats why you hear users saying they need to "lock on" for a couple seconds before firing off a burst.

In fact, the manual states:

If the subject approaches or retreats from the camera at a constant rate, the
camera tracks the subject and predicts the focusing distance immediately before the picture is taken. This is for obtaining correct focus at the moment of exposure.

So there is an internal assumption of "constant rate" by the focusing mechanism, and the actual focus distance is a guess (prediction).

That could actually explain my less than stellar results. I'm shooting my dog in short runs (30-40 feet max), its doubtful she maintains anything close to a constant speed. Time to take her to the park for some longer runs.

Mar 25, 2008 at 08:44 PM

Colin Key
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p.52 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Glen_C wrote:

But AI SERVO should be the best choice for almost everything except tripod photography of still objects. If anyone has some reference reading to educate me further i'm all game.

Glen,

Thanks for your reply. I responded to your earlier post because I thought (and could be mistaken) that you were dismissing "One Shot Mode" on a 1D series camera.

There is a HUGE misconception that if the subject is moving, you should be in AI Servo mode -- simply not the case for reasons I stated above. And, I cannot agree with your quote above either: AI Servo is NOT the best choice for almost everything except tripod photography of static subjects.

AI Servo has a job to do (calculate focal distance for a subject moving towards or away from you in a predictive way) and if it is not needed (a static subject, or one moving but at a constant distance from the camera) it will still sometimes (not always) come into play and, finding itself "redundant" cause some focus problems. I have proven experience of this with the Mk III.

Colin

Mar 25, 2008 at 08:47 PM

Glen_C
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p.52 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hi, i totally can NOT speak for the III

but if i purchased one and AI-SERVO (ie. continual focus) did not seriously outperform "One shot mode" routinely on moving objects i'd probably return the camera very shortly.

here is a decent article by Chuck W.
http://photonotes.org/other/ai-servo.html

and canon
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu9vncelH81IAb0RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZTMxZmo5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y5MDBfMTE4/SIG=12dkn30sl/EXP=1206567783/**http%3a//www.usa.canon.com/content/Handling/EOS_Digital.pdf

One-Shot AF: This mode is intended for use with stationary subjects. It locks focus upon completion of lens drive, allowing the photographer to recompose if desired. One-Shot AF is also recommended for maximum performance in extreme low-light situations.

AI Servo AF: This mode is intended for use with moving subjects. It operates continuously up to the instant of exposure, and it also operates between exposures in burst mode shooting. In AI Servo AF, you can tell whether the AF system is tracking the subject by observing the focus indicator in the viewfinder below the picture area. If the focus indicator does not light, the system is tracking. If it is blinking rapidly, the system is not tracking.

Mar 25, 2008 at 09:50 PM

mbellot
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p.52 #21 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

mbellot wrote:
That could actually explain my less than stellar results. I'm shooting my dog in short runs (30-40 feet max), its doubtful she maintains anything close to a constant speed. Time to take her to the park for some longer runs.

Well, this was a helpful thread.

Instead of the dog I had my two four year old daughters start at the back of the yard and run towards me.

The lighting was bad (I was at ISO1600), so judging actual sharpness is iffy at best. But there is no doubt in my mind that the camera tracked accurately. Viewed at 50% magnification (to blend away some of the noise) with just a tad of sharpening (in Bibble) puts the focus dead on where it should have been.

The only time the camera lost it was when one of them came closer than MFD on my 70-200.

Edited on Mar 26, 2008 at 04:35 AM

Mar 26, 2008 at 04:34 AM

stan_g
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p.52 #22 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Photon:
Thanks. I was hoping I was unaware of a function that could help but alas, not. Thanks for responding anyway. I can see setting C.Fn IV-13, set to 1 if using AI-SERVO thereby increasing the speed of starting a sequence even before focus lock but in oneshot that would be silly. I have re-thought everything again, and tried most options over again and now I'm not sure of some.
also:
for me, in one shot with side expansion assist, I have often been glad I had the assist on because it shows in the viewfinder (especially if using center spot AF) if AF is using the feature because both the center spot and the assist spot light on lock. Then I can decide if both are in the same plane and shoot, or if not in the same plane, re focusing, all quite quickly.

Glen:
Although, re-thinking a couple comments has made me more sure of how they work for me. I seldom use servo when:
1) shooting subjects in the distance through a very cluttered foreground ie. through trees, through fences, through windows with reflections, the reflections themselves, etc. and I need to be able to determine with confidence what the AF has chosen.
2) When I'm moving by a subject with a complex backgrouond and to the camera everything is moving at a similar speed.
3) the scene is of low contrast for subject, foreground, and background.
4) very dim lighting when the subject is also dim AND bright background spots near the subject ie. into shadows with nearby lights in the distance.
5) erratically moving subjects, ie. basketball, soccer.
6)I can go on. I just don't often shoot subjects that servo is useful. I do once in awhile realize too late that servo may have been better. alas.

Edited on Mar 26, 2008 at 12:28 PM

Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 PM

lidesun
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p.52 #23 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

stan_g wrote:
for me, in one shot with side expansion assist, I have often been glad I had the assist on because it shows in the viewfinder (especially if using center spot AF) if AF is using the feature because both the center spot and the assist spot light on lock. Then I can decide if both are in the same plane and shoot, or if not in the same plane, re focusing, all quite quickly.

If that's the case you may need to check if your Mark III's center AF sensor works properply....otherwise i see no reason for using the expansion AF points at one shot mode, unless your subject is relatively quite big and you want more coverage with the AF points,,,,

Edited on Mar 26, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Mar 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Colin Key
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p.52 #24 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Glen_C wrote:
Hi, i totally can NOT speak for the III

but if i purchased one and AI-SERVO (ie. continual focus) did not seriously outperform "One shot mode" routinely on moving objects i'd probably return the camera very shortly.

here is a decent article by Chuck W.
http://photonotes.org/other/ai-servo.html

Glen, that article was first published in June 1992 - things have moved on a bit since then!! I could not access the other link.

I will stand my ground and maintain that AI Servo only provides any useful purpose when the distance between camera and subject is changing (i.e. the subject is moving towards or away from you), and to state that it is useful "on all moving subjects" is incorrect. If the distance between subject and camera sensor is constant (e.g. a jet plane flying across/perpendicular to your direction of shooting) then AI Servo serves no useful purpose and can in fact deteriorate the image quality and focus accuracy by making the camera attempt to do something it does not need to do, and results in "hunting" AF.

Colin

Mar 26, 2008 at 01:13 PM

Glen_C
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p.52 #25 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

how about 99% of moving subjects? ::

the PDF is the eos-digital 1D white paper most here already have. sure things have changed, including the improvements in constant focus ability. i think some people get hung up on the term "AI" and also the lesser models "ai focus" mode which is like auto-pilot where the system jumps between constant focus and one shot.

maybe we're just talking semantics. How can the "distance" not change when the photographer is standing still unless you're at infinity focus? These same principles apply as to why to never focus & recompose (if you want dead-on focus).

now if someone's technique adapts to the one-shot, or if one-shot obtains intial focus faster in some cases that is a different story but wit 8-10fps i also don't think that can improve photos (1 good photo then 9 followups OOF).

ymmv

Mar 26, 2008 at 01:47 PM


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