Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

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Archive 2007 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

snook
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p.10 #1 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Anybody out there used the ZD with an RZII proD yet..
Would be interesting to see how it is.
Snook

Aug 28, 2007 at 01:05 AM

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p.10 #2 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

From a post on the previous page:

"the larger sensor may require two captures to match the 1Ds' DOF"

What exactly is all of this? I've heard of that before, that DOF is different for MF than 35mm. In general f11 seems to be a great place to stop down to - after f11 resolution goes down a decent amount. At f11 using hyperfocal distance focusing the 'short side' of f11 is between 3 and 5 feet - a bit closer to 5, so lets say 4.5. And I've heard people say the DOF marks are a bit to 'open' so, lets say we use f11 but use the marks for f8. Hyperfocal on f8 (I can't say for certain that the mark between f4 and f11 is f8 versus f5.6 - but it seems closer to 11 and anyhow f5.6 would be even more conservative) gets us to between 5 and 10 feet, very close to the 5 mark, lets say 6.

So I can take a picture between 6 and 4.5 feet to infinity with great resolution and everything within a reasonable dof level.

So - would a Canon/Zeiss, at f11, go to 2 feet instead of 4.5/6? And I assume we are talking about getting flowers in front of mountains kind of stuff?

Or are we talking about dof as it applies to protraiture, and at 2.8 and all that whether you get 1 cm, 1/10th of a cm, or 1/100th?

Hey - and I use HDR now and then and am familiar with it, in a sentence or two, how do you do multiexposures for dof? Just focus at different places at low fstop and then do layers and fade merge of the layers or something?

Anyway - the main point here is I never knew that dof was a drawback to MF (4.5/6ft is fine for me 98% of time) and would be interested in hearing more about that.

Aug 29, 2007 at 09:18 AM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #3 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

It's not a drawback for fashion/modelphotography.
To be honest it was one of the reasons I switched.

With a ringflash outside you will shoot mostly on f16 with a Canon and often even a bit higher, DOF is too much than.
With the MF system you have a real ISO50 so you will be dropped to f11 and with the Leaf I now have ISO25 so I can drop to f8

The f8 on MF is about equal for my eyes to f4.5 or slightly lower compared to the FF canon. Given my position is about the same.

I use app 200mm on the MF while on the Canon I would be arround 80mm.

For landscape photographers it can be a problem indeed, a crop camera gives great DOF even handhold, on the other hand with wideangle lenses even on f11 I get a sharp picture from almost front to end.

De defraction you are talking about (getting softer above f11) is a problem with DSLRs and high pixel counts vs AA filter as far as I understood it, so with MF that problem should be less because of the larger sensor and different pixel count.

But please correct me if I'm wrong there.

Aug 29, 2007 at 09:39 AM

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p.10 #4 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

The relative softness after f11 exists independent of sensor/etc. (Although, of course, if you are cropping film to 80% of area, or using digital sensor, then you will have less softenss as you aren't capturing the edges.) I have compiled over the years all of the resolution tests of the various Mamiya lenses, and have them in Excel. Most (all, perhaps) were done by PopPhoto on film. Thus, these results are independent of all things sensor related. As you can see from the pic, its not so strong you can't use over f11, its just a trend.

You'll note that these numbers are equal to, and in some cases, exceed those from Zeiss or Hassy. The Zeiss or Hassy lenses, across the board, do better on the edges (although sometimes not by much!) and can have better wide-open resolution, for example. Basically, it is similar to what is being said here about the backs - you do get more from the Hassy or Zeiss MF options, but they cost gobs more. With Mamiya you are already wayyyyy up on the performance curve, farther than many realize. And in various small areas, actually better!!

The corner numbers are dashed and the solid ones are center. The legend says 'o' for cOrner (both corner and center start with 'c', so I went with 2nd letter on less important word).

These aren't the best colors and all that for differentiating between lenses, I had just made the chart for myself over the years and not for public consumption, but since Frank asked about over f11 resolution and this is my information, I decided to post it.

Oh, and the 120 macro was tested, but only qualitative expressions of how it did were published. I've asked PopPhoto for the actual numbers to my little chart here, but have gotten no response yet.

Aug 29, 2007 at 06:23 PM

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p.10 #5 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Oh - in the legend, 30 should say 35.

Aug 29, 2007 at 06:56 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.10 #6 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Frank
I really dont see the ISO 50-problem you have with Canon. There is always a work around, like ND-filters, anyway you have more flexability with a 35mm DSLR, using high ISO, or faster apertures, IS lenses and Canon offers a flash system which allows ultra fast times.

The DOF of a 80mm on a 35mm or on a MF is the same, I understand, though the FOV will be different. Diffraction is a problem of all lenses and systems, smaller pixels will increase D. Just I cant think of a situation were I needed f16 on my Canons for other than DOF. Of course the Mamiya ZD will exceel when it comes to resolution against a 5D. The question is by how much and if this is worth to load an extra system on the photogs back.

Quite frankly Frank, I think there is nothing against the 22mp ZD back but there is a lot in favour of a decent 35mm system. Mamiya should make the ZD available for all cameras, including Viewfinder systems. To keep it closed is not the way to go and makes it less attractive! It is just another thing to make people buy imacon, aptus or sinar backs and maybe go directly a notch higher to use it in addition with a Canon, Nikon or whatever

Aug 29, 2007 at 07:26 PM

oksi
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p.10 #7 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Some informations on optical diffraction:

- diffraction is completely independend from the focal length of the lens and from size of the sensor or the film
- it only depends on the aperture of the lens

As a simple rule one can remember: If a sensor of a digital camera has a certain pixel width, diffraction starts to reduce sharpness visibly as soon as the aperture is closed more than the pixel width in micrometer.

This means for example that for a 5d with 8.2 micrometer pixel width, you only should use apertures down to f8, at f11 diffraction will start to soften the picture visibly (at f11 slightly, at f16 significantly).
For a Nikon D300 with a pixel width of 5.6 micrometer, you only should use apertures down to f5.6. Let's say at f11, diffraction makes it impossible to use 12 MP resolution of the camera because diffraction will cause edge softness which is wider than the pixel width.

In other words, the smaller the sensor and the higher the MP of this sensor, the smaller the range of useful apertures (and the other way round)!

Aug 29, 2007 at 08:25 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #8 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

ISO50 for the 5D is wonderful for the studio but outside with more DR you will run into problem, the highlights are exposed as ISO100 so actually you are sacrifising 1-2 stops dynamic range.
For outside flash work not really handy.

DOF is totally different from FF to MF or at least for me.
I have the same distance from my model so I use a longer lens on the MF and the DOF changes enourmously.

Aug 29, 2007 at 08:57 PM

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p.10 #9 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I like stubborn people, I am a bit myself

Aug 29, 2007 at 09:22 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #10 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Maybe I talk from the wrong position.
I'm used to working from my models from a certain position in the studio and on location.
With the 5D this was often a 80mm lens.
For MF this became the 120mm macro.

When I compare a f8.0 shot between the two the DOF on the MF is about f5.6 or even less compared to the 5D.
That's what I meant

Aug 29, 2007 at 09:38 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.10 #11 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:

So, would you not be able to get the same shallow depth of field you like out of the 5D by just opening it up to F4? or is it that your flashes will not go that low? if so, then why would not the before mentioned nd filters fix things. I guess I'm just not following this reason as you can almost always open up a 35mm lens at least a stop or two more than a mf lens to get the same DOF. Right?

Aug 29, 2007 at 10:59 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #12 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I had the same idea before I switched, but trust me when you shoot with the MF system you will notice there is really a big difference.

Also when you want to blow out the sun you need ALOT of power.
So or low ISO like 25, or a small aperture like f22.

ND filters seem nice but give you focusproblems and it will degrade the quality of your glass.
Also the way the MF DOF and bokeh looks is not comparable to the DLSRs at least for my eye,

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:03 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.10 #13 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
I had the same idea before I switched, but trust me when you shoot with the MF system you will notice there is really a big difference.

Also when you want to blow out the sun you need ALOT of power.
So or low ISO like 25, or a small aperture like f22.

ND filters seem nice but give you focusproblems and it will degrade the quality of your glass.
Also the way the MF DOF and bokeh looks is not comparable to the DLSRs at least for my eye,

I shoot with MF Hasselblad on film and have shot with various MF systems over the years with various make lenses. The Bokeh and DOF are a function of the particular lens design and the relationship of the F stop used to the format size. All lenses will have a different figerprint or look which is what a lot of us here really get excited about. A Canon 85 1.4 ffor instance will not look like the Zeiss 85 1.4 nor the Leica 80 Lux. The Bokeh could be day and night different. The shallow DOF is easily equalized with the faster 35mm lenses. All this though means nothing if like you say it does not work for you because of ND focus issues shooting under your particular situation. I guess the ND filters could also risk introducing more flare problems shooting into the sun.

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:28 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #14 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

The difference per lens is know to me, I have experimented alot with Canon lenses (not zeiss by the way)

Somehow it seems that all the lenses I now own for the Mamiya all have better Bokeh than my Canon glass, but than again I never tried zeiss on the Canon and some people have very good results with those.
For me it was clear I wanted a bigger sensor.

I know you can use faster lenses for the canon but I have shot several sessions with the 50mm 1.4 and the choice was, nice DOF but soft pictures or more DOF and sharper pictures.

I did a similair session with the 80mm f2.8 on the Mamiya and I could close it down to f4 and still get incredible DOF but also a very sharp end result.

Technical it can be emulated by the DSLR maybe but in practice the MF just gives me much more control for my feeling and it fits my workflow better.

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:42 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #15 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

By the way don't get my postings wrong, I respect everyone with experience, I just post my own feelings and experience.
In MF my experience is very young.

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:44 PM

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p.10 #16 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Have you tried B+W or Heliopan neutral density filters? From what I've seen they are heads and shoulders above the rest. As well in price - I paid more for the UV/haze filter for my 35mm Mamiya lense than some pay (non-pro) for an entire camera!!

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:49 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.10 #17 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

No, its of course all about what works for you and your working methods.

Aug 29, 2007 at 11:51 PM

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p.10 #18 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Has anyone done a comparison on the ZD back to any other MF back?

Aug 30, 2007 at 01:15 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.10 #19 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Yes I did to the Leaf Aptus.
See :
http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php?board=11.0

I'm still very happy with the results of the ZD for it's price, but the Aptus is a different product (and a lot more expensive)

Aug 30, 2007 at 04:14 PM

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p.10 #20 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

oksi wrote:
This means for example that for a 5d with 8.2 micrometer pixel width, you only should use apertures down to f8, at f11 diffraction will start to soften the picture visibly (at f11 slightly, at f16 significantly).

Sorry, this is not the case in real life. Most of lenses on 5D show no softness at F/11 and even at f/16 they hold-on. It is especially true for the coreners and edge-to-edge sharpness. Diffraction raise its ugly head at f/22 and upward.

So you are mistaken 1 stop. It was a very comprehensive discussion of it on LL last spring that ponted out you must up-lift you numbers by one stop. That's because [for Bayer] you must take DIAGONAL of the pixel, not its side.

Aug 31, 2007 at 02:10 PM

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