Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

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Archive 2007 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

brainiac
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p.7 #1 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Who doesn't get enthusiastic about a new camera? We all do. I thought Frank was very explicit about the back, his results, and what it was like to use it. On the strength of his blog, where he posted results and crops for us to look at, I decided that the ZD wasn't going to work for me. Frank has been very honest and has kindly shared his experience with what is in many ways a nice bit of kit. That's not irresponsible. Irresponsible was when some proponents of the M8 encouraged others to buy while obeying the manufacturer's request to keep silent about some aspects of its performance. Frank's just a photographer enjoying his experiments like the rest of us. Give him a break.

Thanks Frank. I'm looking forward to seeing more results from your Aptus.

Aug 25, 2007 at 05:37 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.7 #2 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
I think there is alot of overreaction.

I have done a handsdown review with the ZD back.
EVERYTHING I posted is something I still stand behind, for it's given price the ZD back is the best way to get into MF.

I have tested two backs, the first one I got was perfect except a non working firewire port which I knew from the start.
When I got the final release I found some problems with it which are currently being solved by Mamiya and will NOT reach the market or will be solved for the first adaptors, so there is no problem there also.
.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding but Frank DID leave out very pertinent information in his review as he admits over at the LL Forum. The back was crashing on him when he wote and showed the great images from the ZD. Was this only in Tethered shooting mode? Apparently not if the Firewire was not working either on this first back. I think it just might have changed a few peoples opinions about things had he mentioned this at the time. I just think a reviewer should never hold back pertinent info either at the request of a manufacturer(LL on the M8) OR because they believe the manufactuer will fix an issue in the future. An unbias review should mention everything. But thats just what I think and I am grateful to Frank for taking the time out to post and show us some of his expereinces with MF backs.

Here is a quote from Frank from the LL Forum about his first ZD back:

"The first back I got crashed on me about every 20-30 frames, the shutter would not fire and the error no dB was shown very much.
This was however something I knew about and did not mention in my review because it was already told by me it would be solved when I got a final release back.
Also firewire was not connected on that back, again something I knew."

Aug 25, 2007 at 05:55 PM

vyanush
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p.7 #3 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
There are no SETTINGS applied like with JPEG but there is ALOT going on before that in the hardware

There is noise suspression on higher ISO's in as far as I know all DSLRs.

No, not in RAW for Canon.

Aug 25, 2007 at 06:06 PM

brainiac
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p.7 #4 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

...but was anyone under the impression that Frank was providing an exhaustive or objective review? When I saw it I thought "here's a photographer trying out some kit and kindly sharing the experience". I didn't expect any objectivity at all. It was not a commercial review by a commercial reviewer. Those who make a career out of reviewing gear have a responsibility to their readers. Frank is not one of them and never pretended to be.

Aug 25, 2007 at 06:16 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.7 #5 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I guess I did expect some objectivity given that Frank posted links to his review all over the web in various Forums. He also monitored all of these forums, answeared questions, ect. Seems like there would have been ample time at some point to mention major operational issues such as "well, the back is crashing on me every 30 frames or so" and add that he expects this to be fixed. In paricular, I mentioned that I had the feeling his review was just a little Rosey. He said it was not. Again, another opportunity to throw out there to everyone some of the issues he had been expereincing. Frank never said he was providing an exhaustive review and I fully appreciate and understand that. I'm also grateful as mentioned elsewhere that he has taken the time to post his review and monitor these forums. I just believe that if you do that and really promote it as he has, then he does in fact have some ethical obligations to be as forthcoming as possible, particularly about major operational issues such as the back crashing often. I in fact think people would even expect this more coming from a completely non commercial review(if in fact that is what it was).

Aug 25, 2007 at 07:03 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #6 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Damn sometimes I really wonder why I post things.

Again.
THE FIRST BACK I GOT was NOT a final product, this was told to me by Mamiya I KNEW some problems but did not mention them indeed because it was KNOWN by Mamiya and they said the final product would not have them.

ANYONE who has EVER worked with a just before product knows this.

The final release back I got was working as it should, on the card.
So I did not make any further notice of that.

HOWEVER as soon as I found out that tethered did not work the day I found that out it appeared on my blog.
Also the purple worms were mentioned the day I found out about them.

AGAIN for the purple worms Mamiya CLAIMS to have the solution and it would not happen with new backs sold, if it DOES there are 2 stories.

1. Mamiya lied to me which I think would be stupid.
2. People got one of the first bad backs and need to swap them with their supplier.

So AGAIN (and yes I'm getting a bit frustated) I still believe the ZD back is a great product, however I'm a working photographer I need something working NOW, Mamiya could solve the purple for me within 2 days but the tethered shooting would take at least to the next software release.

THIS and ONLY THIS is the reason I bought a Leaf.
And yes the pictures will be better, and yes I will post that again in my blog.
However if I upgrade in a year please don't blame me

When you shoot on the card and use tethered sometimes the ZD back is a stunning performer, it smokes the 1DsII on ISO50-100 anything above that is just nice but it's not were it's designed for.

Again for the last time, I did not upgrade because I did not like the ZD back. It was just not the time for me, maybe if I would have switched a month later and the tethered would have been not a problem I would have shot the ZD probarbly for a long time.
However when I advertise with Medium format to my customers I cannot have the situation were something does not work.

The purple worms really got me offguard, I have shot several 400 ISO shots with the first back and they were clean.

Also now I have a sample of the artifact on my website posted this afternoon (way before this post to prove I did not do it quickly, I still have to make the post in my blog but I did not YET have the time).

I'm not paid by anyone for the reviews I do, but PLEASE don't change my words arround, it's as posted and I still stand by that for the full 100%.

Edited by J.A.F. Doorhof on Aug 25, 2007 at 07:14 PM GMT

Aug 25, 2007 at 07:09 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #7 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

@Tariq,
Sorry you posted while I was typing.

AGAIN, my first back crashed a lot, but AGAIN this was known to me.
The new back NEVER crashed on me while shooting on the card.
Tethered is something else and I have mentioned that from the day I experienced it.
Well that is not entirely true by the way, I knew 3 days before I posted it the first time, simply because I first wanted to make sure I did not do something wrong myself.

Why did I post the review on so many sites ?
As mentioned before by someone else, I'm an enthiousastic photographer and I loved to get a very early sample of the ZD back, because ALOT of people mailed me when they saw the first remarks I made about buying it I decided to make the review.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Aug 25, 2007 at 07:13 PM

snook
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p.7 #8 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I am getting more lost here.
How has Mamiya Fixed the Purple Problem in 2 days?
Also I would not say the ZD smokes the 1DsMII..
I would like to add that from the beginning I ask the downfalls and was actually Slammed in many post for doing so.
I thought it was "too" rosey also to not have some kind of affiliation to Mamiya.
Maybe Frank was hoping to get some freebie or super discount for his rosey review.. That we will never know.
I do appreciate Franks review but always thought it was biased..
Then the Can of worms came out ,no pun intended.
Hey Frank can you explain how Mamiya has fixed the Purple problem.
When that came out along with some bad grainy shots along with the fire wire problem that just through me way off.
I was always concerned about how it really was as only 2 reviews were being posted on the web, which again is strange with all the units sold.
I also think Canon has hampered the ZD sells with it's new release for sure , no doubt about that.
WHY are there not MORE reviews or posting of images from the ZD?
I would love to hear how mamiya has fixed the purple probelm and how they are going to fix the wormy problem.
But I am glad they were discovered before I pulled the trigger to try out the ZD. Where I live there is no service and it would have been a BIG deal to have to ship back for service.
My clients would be quite upset.
Frank I hope you take more time when you continue your leaf review, b//c again you have jumped the gun overly ecstatic about it aswell. I hope not but the flowers are flowing agin in that review. Although I truly believe it is WAY better than the ZD.
Also Frank, It is PROBABLY.. I have noticed you always spell that word wrong...:+}
Thought I would help you out..
Thanks and let me know the Mmaiya fix for the problems..
Snook

Aug 25, 2007 at 07:25 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #9 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

1. I experienced the problem after a week or so because it simply does not show up on ISO50-100 and barely on ISO125.
So when I mentioned it, it was already known by the importer and they already called with Mamiya. According to Mamiya it's a problem in the chip programming (and seeing the artifacts I believe that).
They were still waiting on an answer if the backs had to go back to Mamiya or if they could service it themself.
Again this can happen.

2. I have told you MANY MANY times that you have to keep in mind a MF back is NOT a DSLR

Of course it sucks on high ISO, of course the AF sucks compared to the DSLR but only on speed, I still have to see a DSLR which is so accurate as the spot focus of the AFD/II, and yes it does not do 9 or even 3 fps.

A digital back excells in studio work and on location work with controlled light and when you have the time.
If you need speed buy a DSLR a MF can never beat that.

As mentioned before I did not sell my 5D and will keep it for most of my other work,

I don't know your experience with MF but I have done extensive research before I made the switch and to be honest I found the adaption easier than I expected, but than again I knew what to expect.

My review was not rosy as being unfair, again I'm still VERY happy with the quality of the ZD back and would STILL advise it to EVERYONE who wants to have something better than the DSLRs.

The remarks that the ZD smokes the 1DsII are based on direct comparisions.
As mentioned a lot of times before, it's not only resolution because that is not true.
But it is:
1. Larger sensor (more depth in the pictures, some people call it MF magic).
2. Better optics.
3. No AA filter so there is alot more fine detail.
4. Larger sensor so better control over DOF.
5. Much more dynamic range.

I don't want to go into a debate, however I can't stand it when people think I'm keeping up appearances because I switched brand, I have explained it many times why I did that, and if you were in the same position as me you would understand.

Aug 25, 2007 at 07:39 PM

dcmiller
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p.7 #10 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Frank, this might be a good point to tell you the phrase your looking for is "hands on" review.

"Hands down" is slang for "with little or no effort". It comes from horse racing. The jockey who is winning easily drops his hands and lets up on the horse. e.g. "The ZD is hands down the best value in MF backs".

I come to enjoy your handsdown terminology, however Just like I am now strangely comforted by the vast number of broken links on Hubsands web site. So if you decide to stick with the phrase, it works for me.

Aug 26, 2007 at 12:04 AM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #11 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

When I posted a handsdown review I meant a review which should not be taken as a full technical review with resolution charts etc. it was meant as MY opinion of the back and the things I encounter with it and my thoughts on it.

In other words I did some side by side comparisions for MY situation and explained what I thought of it.

Now I'm being accussed of playing a game with people by giving them the idea the ZD back is the perfect device for everyone and it's plain 100% perfect.
I however NEVER posted that, and also did not make the review Rosy, I told all the downfalls (the display, the noise at high ISO's, the buffer etc.) but I also explained that this is not a problem in MY workflow.

As soon as I found out some real problems I also posted them straight away.
A normal review runs for a week and is done, when I did that I would have had a serious problem because I would have never run into the problems I found after a few weeks (which AGAIN are being solved by Mamiya if I can believe them of course

) in other words it was an ongoing BLOG report in which people got (I think) a great insight in what I was doing with the back.

Some people will buy the back anyway because the NEVER shoot tethered (I know a lot of people only shoot on the card), other photographers like me will wait out and see if Mamiya fixes the tethered shooting, for me that takes too long because I have no spare MF back so I upgraded.

In my (maybe twisted seeing some replies) way of thinking I did nothing wrong.

Aug 26, 2007 at 09:12 AM

Brent Ward
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p.7 #12 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:

In my (maybe twisted seeing some replies) way of thinking I did nothing wrong.

So slamming anyone that posted anything objective (or challenged your review) about the camera's functionality and quality is part of your personel review process?

You definitely came across as someone who wasn't objective about the camera at all and looked more and more like there had to be a reason for such a rosy review when others were pointing out flaws.

Aug 26, 2007 at 03:08 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #13 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

When the flaws were:

It sucks at high ISO, the buffer is to slow and there is no 400mm lens.

YES.
Of course I will respond.
Again the MF system is not intended for sports, birding or night photography.

It's the same as giving negative critiques about a 15mm lens because the birds are so freaking small, well ok than you have to buy a 300mm or 400mm lens. But than they will argue that the field of view is not wide enough.

For me it's was VERY clear from the start, with MF I would do ALOT of sacrifices but in the departments were it counted for me, controlled light and model photography it would EXCELL in all departments.

And that's what happened.

Only on the buffer there can be some discussion, for me the 11 frame buffer was enough but I can think some people will claim it's not enough, I have given MY opinion about that, if you don't like that that's ok but don''t say I paint something rosy while it's actually deep black.

There will always be people who are NOT thinking straight when buying into MF and will be very dissapointed, I never ever claimed it would replace my DSLR completly, I did claim however that it would replace my DLSR for my studio work.

Aug 26, 2007 at 06:29 PM

vyanush
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p.7 #14 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
There are no SETTINGS applied like with JPEG but there is ALOT going on before that in the hardware

There is noise suspression on higher ISO's in as far as I know all DSLRs.
Sorry, but not for RAW in Canon DSLRs. If only long-exposure NR, but it could be switched-off by 1 click.

Aug 27, 2007 at 11:04 AM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #15 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

You know exactly what's going on in the digic engine ??

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:33 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.7 #16 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Canon does some noise supression in canon bodies according to ...
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1DMK3/E1DMK3A.HTM

who cares!

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:39 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #17 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

It was just to point out that there is alot going on were people don't expect it.
I pointed it out because I found my 5D to loose detail at higher ISOs something my back doesn't as much, but there is more noise.

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:43 PM

dcmiller
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p.7 #18 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Andi Dietrich wrote:
Canon does some noise supression in canon bodies according to ...
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1DMK3/E1DMK3A.HTM

who cares!

There noise avoidance - on chip correction of what would have been an inaccuate measurement. And there noise supression - fixing the stuff we find visually unappealing.

I doubt we have any untouched "raw" files anymore. Secret stuff.

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:45 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #19 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

A RAW file will always be somehow altered it depends on the camera how much.

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:47 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.7 #20 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

This is from Imaging Resource which does appear clearly to indicate that the Canon's do in fact perform Noise Reduction right at the Sensor which would affect all images, jpeg or Raw:

"Improved on-chip active noise reduction. This also seems to be a feature that's working is way through Canon's SLR models. One of the unique advantages of the active CMOS sensor technology developed by Canon is the ability to perform noise-reduction signal processing right on the sensor chip itself. (Before the signal is ever transferred off to the external processing circuitry.) In recent sensors, Canon has implemented a more advanced form of this processing that has the effect of reducing the noise levels seen by the camera's processor. This helps noise levels across the board."

From here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1DMK3/E1DMK3A.HTM

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:52 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.7 #21 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Oops, Andi beat me to it!

Aug 27, 2007 at 01:53 PM

hubsand
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p.7 #22 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I'm trying to avoid getting too involved in a debate about the ZD until I've had another week or so to play with it and mull things over, but a few points seem to me now to be uncontroversial:

• Mamiya still has some work to do ironing out software wrinkles in the ZD: a) the Dalsa chip is capable of better controlled performance in other backs – and b) we shouldn't be seeing these communication problems between the body and the back, or the back and the PC. My particular ZD back has manifested a troubling and wide ranging plethora of bizarre malfunctions that may or may not be related to its communication with the AFD body; Frank can't shoot tethered . . .

• As Frank always said, the ZD cannot be considered a substitute for a DSLR. However, the number of areas in which it excels relative to a 1Ds II or 5D are fewer than I expected. Several times now, I've taken both systems out on location, and the ZD either didn't make it out of the bag or bought nothing much to the party when it did. Controlled shooting at leisure, comparing the best Mamiya lenses with Zeiss and Leica lenses on the 5D, show a relatively small margin of superiority for the ZD in ideal conditions, but the balance quickly tips against it in many typical circumstances.

• The ideal partner to a ZD at present seems to be the Nikon D3: the low-light, weatherproof, rapid AF capabilities of the Nikon dovetail perfectly with the weakness of the ZD. However, the new 1Ds III may well offer a very appealing compromise in one body: it seems likely that the D3 will be a faster camera (in both senses) than the Canon, and the Mamiya ZD has an edge in DR and that attractive 'large format' rendition – but carefully post-produced 14-bit 21MP Canon files are going to be very fine indeed and the sheer jack-of-all-trades flexibility of the 1Ds III will be persuasive.

• For uncompromised architecture and landscape shooting, the bar is still set pretty high: it's just not possible to use the ZD back in low light. Period. For 1Ds III-bettering performance, you need to be looking at mid-range Phase and Leaf backs, plus something like the Silvestri Flexicam and a couple of those really lovely Apo Digitar and Rodenstock HR lenses. This is the system I would love to upgrade to, but you're looking at a minimum $22K entry point for a three wide lens stitching back system with movements. A very, very similar level of performance and utility is going to be obtainable with a 1Ds III and Zörk adaptors for less than half that cost.

• Again, for landscape and architecture, multiple exposures are frequently going to be necessary: just as it may be necessary for a 1Ds to shoot twice for DR to match an MF back, the larger sensor may require two captures to match the 1Ds' DOF.

• Concerns remain that the lenses may not live up to the demands of the 1Ds III. I also have concerns about Mamiya's range of wide lenses: concerns I don't have about the Pentax 645 range! However, in the last week, Canon has demonstrated a fresh commitment to high-resolution wide primes in the promising form of the Mark II 14mm, which looks on paper like a lens you might not be scared to use on a 1Ds III. Similarly, the new Nikon 14-24mm may prove to be a killer WA solution if the specs materialise. And Zeiss may still have a few aces to play in ZF form . . . .

All of which leads me to conclude that a switch away from Canon at this point would be premature. When I do, it will be with deeper pockets . . . .

Edited by hubsand on Aug 27, 2007 at 02:28 PM GMT

Aug 27, 2007 at 02:15 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.7 #23 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Hi,

On point one, do you still have lockups with a new back ?
that should not happen, when shooting on the card it should work without locking up, if not please contact your dealer for the new firmware.

As I mentioned in my review the best difference between the 5D and the ZD back was the depth in the pictures, the ZD back was giving me incredible 3D like pictures which I could not get out of the 5D not even with the best L glass.

And indeed dynamic range.

However I think you also have to be realistic.
The difference will get smaller and smaller while prices are going up, it's the same as in high-end audio.

For me the difference was clearly seen and worth the money, but I have to admit I'm not in the market for the resolution, I wanted more 3D feel and dynamic range in my pictures, smoother gradiants and real ISO50 (for my outside flash).
Straight out of the cam you are right on the issue of first look, but try to pixelpush the shots you will see the ZD files will give you MUCH more to work with than the 5D or 1DsII files.

The 1DsIII will also be tested by me when it's released (*just for fun) but I'm afraid it will be more resolution but not more depth of the shots and more dynamic range.
The main reasons I switched to MF.

It will however always be the question is it worth 5 times the ammount of the 5D, and for some it will, for some it won't.
The difference is not 5 times that's for sure

Aug 27, 2007 at 02:25 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.7 #24 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
It was just to point out that there is alot going on were people don't expect it.
I pointed it out because I found my 5D to loose detail at higher ISOs something my back doesn't as much, but there is more noise.

there was a review about the 1ds2 and the leaf 22mp back about a year or two ago. I remember that they found that the canons delivered equal or even better IQ/detail at iso 400 and above. I would be surprised to see the ZD doing better than the Leaf

Aug 27, 2007 at 02:29 PM

hubsand
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p.7 #25 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

When shooting with CF cards, I've had the AFD body not recognise the back or locking it out without warning. I have a raggedy 100px deep red discolouration in the top right corner of every frame. Sometimes the backs just falls over and cycles from a black to a grey screen. At ISO 50, I can't shoot longer than 8 seconds without hot confetti; at ISO 100, the limit is closer to 2 seconds. My particular back is defective, and Mamiya has offered to replace it, but I lack confidence that a replacement will be worthwhile.

Aug 27, 2007 at 02:33 PM


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