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Archive 2007 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions
  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #1 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Concerning Moire with the Kodak DSLR Vs Leica Vs Phase One vs Mamiya etc. I'm sure just because they all do not have an AA filter does not mean they will all be equal as regards their resistance to Moire. Engineering and especially software have a huge impact here.

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:14 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #2 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


I saw this on small prints processed by labs. Dont push me, I am not against a laugh on my account but my English is too bad to elaborate on moiré.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moire

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:14 PM
J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.5 #3 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Moire can creep up in any process where there is some form of processing.
Best effect can be seen on composite video, try to watch small details there

On print the same can happen in the conversion.

With the digital capturing of files it's however often a small change in angle or light that can solve the moire at the moment of capture.
It's not a real big issue anyway, it's easily solved with the C1 plugin, but to be honest I did not find another one that works.
By the way you will always see something left, but you have to push to see it.

Andi, the camera itself is not interesting enough, when you spend that ammount of money you don't want a closed system.
When you buy the 645AFD/II you can always switch backs.
That's the reason I bought into it, I figured I would build the system with the ZD back, if the back did not perform as I hoped I would hang on to it for a year or so and than upgrade to a leaf or Phase one back.

I still have to compare the leaf or Phase with the ZD, but for the moment I will stick with the ZD, the only problem they have to solve for me is the problems I'm having with tethered shooting. Although we almost figured out what it is that is making the problems (probarbly the hotfolder option in lightroom). I know more about this later this week when I have a large enough session, on my blog review there is allready a note on that.

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:24 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #4 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Frank, I appreciate the debate and the information you give us here

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:42 PM
hubsand
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p.5 #5 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


The car analogy is a good fit: the ZD is a specialist 'racetrack' tool: it doesn't go off road, the turning circle makes parking difficult and the luggage space is a joke – but give it a smooth surface and it will way outperform a road car.

How it compares to a more expensive back at today's prices is largely irrelevant: the price point makes the comparison: the Mamiya is pitched against the 1Ds.

Frank's point about the modular nature of the system is also very important. This is a great time to buy into a MF system . . . OK, so it's not going to suit every application, but it's a valuable addition to a versatile shooting kit right now. And, when prices of other backs fall, you only need upgrade the back.

Try asking Canon to 'upgrade' your Mark II when the III comes out. Watch the price of your Mark II plummet as you're left holding the baby. 'That's another $8K, please sir . . . sorry, no, we're not interested in your Mark II now: it's obsolete. Why don't you put it on eBay? Someone might give you a quarter of what you paid for it.”

The only upgrade I see out there at present is the similarly-sized P25 (or +) which would offer full 16 bit (whether this would be much of an upgrade is difficult to determine), but much improved high ISO and long exposures, which would be a plus in versatility terms, even if the ISO100 performance would be very much the same. The price of a *used* old-school P25 is currently twice that of the ZD.

Aug 13, 2007 at 10:10 PM
vyanush
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p.5 #6 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Tariq Gibran wrote:
[What jumps out at me about these shots is not the dynamic range which I'm sure I could match with my 5D(in these particular shots) but the great color and contrast. This is exactly what I see when I mount my Zeiss lenses onto my 5D - Great microcontrast coupled with that punchy color which contributes to that 3D look. I have yet to see this look from my Canon Glass.


Actually, you can get "3D look" for free. It is well-known PP technique called "Local contrast enhancement" described at LL and recently at TOP blog. It is USM with low percent/big radius (e.g. 10% and 50 pixels).

Aug 14, 2007 at 09:56 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #7 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


vyanush wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
[What jumps out at me about these shots is not the dynamic range which I'm sure I could match with my 5D(in these particular shots) but the great color and contrast. This is exactly what I see when I mount my Zeiss lenses onto my 5D - Great microcontrast coupled with that punchy color which contributes to that 3D look. I have yet to see this look from my Canon Glass.


Actually, you can get "3D look" for free. It is well-known PP technique called "Local contrast enhancement" described at LL and recently at TOP blog. It is USM with low percent/big radius (e.g. 10% and 50 pixels).


Ya, been using it for years and now the "Clarity" in Lightroom does a similar thing. This technique though will not completely replicate the 3D look of a good lens such as some of the Zeiss lenses. One of the main differences of using either of these techniques versus having a lens which inherently gives you true micro contrast is that the PP method sacrifices some shadow and highlight detail in exchange. A good lens keeps everything.

Aug 14, 2007 at 12:05 PM
Dergiman
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p.5 #8 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


yes, well said Tariq, and imho Local Contrast Enhancement does also harm to the out of focus blur, aka bokeh. it takes away that nice smoothness many of us (including me) are after.








Aug 14, 2007 at 02:09 PM
hubsand
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p.5 #9 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


There's no plug in or single pass post-production technique that can mimic the thin DOF and consequent spatial rendering that a larger format gives you. There are no short cuts: it's a different look altogether to Zeiss glass on a FF DSLR. Try it: you might like it!

Aug 14, 2007 at 03:19 PM
J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.5 #10 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Of course you can pop the pictures from the 5D to get a nice 3D feel.
HOWEVER you can use the same techniques on those of MF

The sensor size is the most important factor for the real 3D look (and the missing AA filter probarbly).

I got the same jump when I got the 5D from the 20D the 5D shots were much more 3D.

Aug 14, 2007 at 03:34 PM
Light Miner
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p.5 #11 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Just to correct one misperception - the 150mm lense can be used with spacers for closer focusing. There are 3 auto extension tubes that can be used in various combinations. This makes the 150, 210, and 300 able to focus in quite close, and more than is require for fashion/prortraits. Much closer than is needed! They basically get you right to macro-land, way beyond portraiture.

I think for head and shoulder portraits with 150mm lense the #2 one is recommended.

For what its worth on the other issue I am in the camp where it is less than 1% of the time where I need to shoot more than what the ZD back can do in terms of frames per second. In fact, it might be never. I'm not negating those who do, just throwing my 2 cents in.

I'm curious to see what more architecture/landscape opinions are for the ZD back. I suppose we'll find out in other threads, but anyone doing that now please share opinions!

To summarize what is above - if I am at ISO 50, and exposed properly, are the dark places mucked up or no? This is a critical issue for me, there is a lot of shadow and nuanced detail in dark places in the pictures I take. I have no problem doing almost everything at ISO 50 or 100 at worst with tripod. In fact, I used to use 25 speed film, and wish Ektar25 were still available... (Zeiss said somewhat recently it was one of the sharpest films ever made.)

Is the 10 second limit real? Is that something now well understood, or are we still figuring it out? I can't stand pictures where the black areas have green blotches and all that... Can someone post dark places of a pic - assuming 10 is the limit, at 7 seconds, 10, and 15? Taken more generally, if X is the limit, X - 3 or so, X, and X + 5?

Aug 14, 2007 at 09:50 PM
Light Miner
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p.5 #12 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Oh - and another possible misperception. Lenses longer than 300 - it was mentioned that there aren't any. There is a 2x extender which gets you to 600.

And on top of that - depending on what you are doing, you can use the manual focus lenses from the other Mamiya 645 lines. There are several of these manual focus lenses which are quite good:

300mm f/2.8 APO
500mm f/5.6
500mm f/4.5 APO

And with the 2x extender that gives you:

600mm f/5.6 APO
1000mm f/11
1000mm f/9 APO

And, depending on what you are using them for, autofocus isn't really used as the objects are at infinity anyhow. Depends on what you are shooting, though (of course!).

Oh - and people were saying very moderate and/or negative things about the 2 existing zooms (not the new one). I don't know if people really know Medium Format that well - and that seems to be the theme of this whole thread, that most of the pros/cons to moving from 5d or other has more to do with format than limitations of the ZD back.

The 2 Mamiya zooms are considered world class zooms - equal to the Hasselblad one! Most MF systems don't have any, Hassy had 1 a few years ago, don't know current situation (i.e., if they have a 2nd one now). Zooms in MF are not normal. For example, see this page,

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml

"I was shocked to see that—in my opinion, none was clearly superior to any of the others! There are subtle differences, and arguments can be made in favor of one or the other. But they are so close that I am now quite content with my Mamiya. (After all, I'm the only one with a second zoom lens—a 105 to 210mm!)"

and "Bill Atkinson and I have done a few comparisons of the Mamiya 55-110mm zoom and Hasselblad 50-110mm zoom , and didn't find any significant differences between those lenses, either (in one test, we preferred the Mamiya!)"

In terms of tested lines/mm the longer zoom is much sharper - so that shows great opportunity between the 2!

I think what it really does is - you can take both zooms, maybe the 35 as well, and just go with that - whereas normally in MF you normally have to take like 15 lbs of lenses to cover the same range.

So - remember, zooms are an anamoly in MF, not the norm.

And for focusing - AF in MF is also relatively new. People bark at the 645afdII focus times - for MF they are considered quite good. None of the focusing abilities in MF are considered on par with 35mm - this is across the board! I assume that the latest Hassy, version 3, may have focusing on par with 35 mm, but my goodness do you pay for it!!

And, fwiw, the 300mm lense with its IF system is amazing. Probably faster/smoother than some of the much smaller lenses and perhaps on par with any 35mm lenses that aren't IF. I am really impressed with the 300 all the way around.

Aug 14, 2007 at 10:16 PM
Light Miner
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p.5 #13 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions



One last thing and I'll go away . I don't know if people realize how sharp the 120mm macro lense is. Can one of the new purchasers of the system add that lense - go take some headshots and report back? The 120mm macro lense, across MF in general is considered one of the sharpest/best lenses that there is. In fact, some people who use it for portraits have to add grain or whatever, because its so sharp you can see too many imperfections, and there are various threads here and there about how to post-process 120mm macro pics to make them less sharp. Now what kind of problem is that to have!!! My lense is too sharp... Hmmm...

Its funny, coming from the MF world to hear people's responses to some of the limitiations - yes they are definitely there, but it feels like we are missing the big (medium?) picture.

So, go play with the 120mm macro lense and come back .

And use a tripod, mirror lock up, and ISO 50. It will be fun. Just try it for a week.

A Quantum flash or two should make ISO 50 more than sufficient.

Aug 14, 2007 at 10:25 PM
 



ACElkins
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p.5 #14 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Actually I was interested in the performance of the 120mm Macro lens also, but for flat field artwork reproduction. The more I hear of the ZF back, the more I am interested in seeing how one might fit into my workflow. I am still waiting for the 1Ds Mk3 release before making a decision, but given that both systems will most likely be 22mp, the ZD would still have better resoultion for this type work due to the sensor being twice the size of the 1Ds and the absence of an AA filter.

What I find the limiting factor would be the lenses, No way am I going to spend over $4000 on a 28mm rectilinear, although the 35mm seems to go for quite a bit less. The lens I am most interested in is the 120mm macro in Manual Focus. Although some sellers advertise the lens as Apochromatic, I see nothing from Mamiya saying that. Would like to know how the 120mm does on artwork reproduction.

I had also considered purchasing the bellows and having an adapter made to mount my 210mm Apo El Nikkor and/or my 120mm Zeiss S-Planar for this type work, but wanted to know if any adapters exist for mounting Hasselblad lenses on the Mamiya. I have been spoiled by all the different lenses available to mount on an EOS mount, wonder if Mamiya might be adaptable to other mounts ( Husband, have you run into any adapters, or do you know if the Mamiya mount is Large Diameter/Short flange to focal plane distance when compared to other medium format cameras, and so would be easily adaptable as is the EOS mount?)




Aug 15, 2007 at 02:16 AM
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p.5 #15 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


zoerk and novoflex are main adapter companies to get such things from. Generally goes well, but be careful of whether or not you can get infinity focus if that is a goal, that is different for each adapter/lens combo.

Oh - and thinking about it - mirror lock up probably wouldn't work for fashion/portraits . Kind of funny, actually, if you think about it.

Aug 15, 2007 at 02:32 AM
Light Miner
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p.5 #16 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


There are two 120mm macro lenses, one for the non-AF Mamiya 645 system, and the newer one.

Older
#210 227
APO
745 grams
f-stop via lens

Newer
#210 605
non-APO
845 grams
f-stop via camera

They did use "Anomalous dispersion optical glass" which is supposed to have a similar effect to APO glass.

Aug 15, 2007 at 02:54 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #17 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Light Miner wrote:
I don't know if people really know Medium Format that well - and that seems to be the theme of this whole thread, that most of the pros/cons to moving from 5d or other has more to do with format than limitations of the ZD back.
.....
Its funny, coming from the MF world to hear people's responses to some of the limitiations - yes they are definitely there, but it feels like we are missing the big (medium?) picture.




Disagree here. I'm sure a lot of people shooting 1Ds, 1Ds11 and 5D have moved there most often from a Medium Format Film Background and not from a 35mm background, particularly on this forum. Many of these ZD limitations mentioned thus far, if not all, did not exist with Medium Format film AND do not exist as bad with other more expensive MF Digital backs. Notable examples would include noisy long exposures which could be a real issue for Landscape or Architecture/Interior work and the slow write speed and buffer issue. These two things combined really narrow the usefulness and versatility of the ZD back and are in no way somehow inherent limitations of Medium Format Film nor other MF Digital systems. Sure, you could probably find a way to work around them such as suggested: Multiple Exposures for the long exposure noise issue(which is not always an option) and Changing your shooting style due to the limitations of the cameras speed(if it is indeed an issue for you, it would be for me). So far, this looks like the trade offs one must accept for the (relatively)cheap ticket price into MF digital which is the ZD back. Stay within the ZD's comfort zone and be rewarded with nice images. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that these limitations are there because its Medium Format.


Aug 15, 2007 at 03:07 AM
Light Miner
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p.5 #18 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Yeah - I can agree with that overall. Some of the negatives are the ones you list, and others were slower shooting style, Mamiya 645 on film isn't anywhere near where F5 was or the modern expensive dslrs, no long lenses, etc. - which I responded to above. Use of tripod - the MF shooters I know are very tripod bound, although especially with 400/800 film you certainly can use handheld, slower lenses, etc. The reviews seem to be a mix of MF issues and ZD-back issues - I agree with everything you say about the ZD-back issues. And you'll note I am also curious about the dark-areas-noise issue, and asked more about it above.

Now - for this multi-exposure thing, anyone successful with it? Seems kind of odd, but could work I guess!

Aug 15, 2007 at 03:14 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #19 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Certainly true about the F5. I did once work with a very good photographer who put a few hundred rolls of 120 through his Mamiya 645 Per Day for 2 weeks straight on a shoot. We had about 4 or 5 backs waiting at all times. Same with Pentax 67's and Blads. These cameras can be very quick when needed or wanted.

Rarely do I use a tripod with my Hasselblad but thats just my shooting style. One of my favorite things about the traditional Blads is in fact how fast I can handle them using the waist level viewfinder. That really knocks me out of probably ever being a future Mamiya 645 user, ZD back or not.



Aug 15, 2007 at 03:37 AM
Brent Ward
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p.5 #20 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


I hadn't shot 35mm film in years before I got a digital.

Aug 15, 2007 at 04:17 AM
vyanush
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p.5 #21 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Tariq Gibran wrote:

Ya, been using it for years and now the "Clarity" in Lightroom does a similar thing. This technique though will not completely replicate the 3D look of a good lens such as some of the Zeiss lenses. One of the main differences of using either of these techniques versus having a lens which inherently gives you true micro contrast is that the PP method sacrifices some shadow and highlight detail in exchange. A good lens keeps everything.


Agree. I'd say it even looks better with really GOOD lens. Just played with ZAs 1.4/85 and 1.8/135 last week-end. Despite they are not "True Zeiss", still very pleasing results...

Sorry for OT

Aug 15, 2007 at 07:24 AM
hubsand
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p.5 #22 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


Slightly off the main topic, but germane to the 'medium format back look' question: many DMR users, perhaps most vocally Guy Mancuso, opined that the Leica behaved like a mini MF back. It's interesting to compare these images (download the CR2s) showing how a 5D looks without the AA filter.

Some of the 'special' quality we see from the DMR, ZD and MF backs generally, can be attributed solely to the lack of (or weak) filtration. Note especially how tonal transitions are rendered more aggressively, contributing to that 'etched' look. This is doubtless one element that contributes to the sense of 'being there' created by high end gear.

It's also the signature property of Zeiss lenses, so the confusion is forgiveable!

Aug 15, 2007 at 09:30 AM
httivals
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p.5 #23 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


If you want to see a significantly different "look" than that produced by a 5D (with AA filter), then check out the Better Light scanning backs and the great website. It gives you some idea of what a full frame, foveon-like sensor (24mm x 36mm) would produce on a 35mm camera. It would place much less stress on the 35mm lenses. You would be utilizing the full resolving ability of the lens rather than some Bayer pattern bastardized, reduced percentage of it. I hope market forces don't prevent us from ever seeing something like this. (I don't minimize the power of market forces -- see Sony betamax losing out to VHS). As soon as someone makes one, I'll be lining up to buy it. I hope it's NIkon or Canon because they both offer a lot of lens choices. Even a Nikon 1.1 conversion factor, foveon like sensor would be unbelievable. Even 10 megapixels times 3 colors would, I'd bet, rival even a 39 pixel bayer sensor for medium format cameras for resolution -- maybe not when conditions were perfect for the bayer sensor, but in real world applications, 90+% of the time, with the lenses and systems available, I'd bet the 10 megapixel (or 30 megapixel, however you want to label it) foveon-like, 24mm x 36mm sensor, would win out. Now hoping that someone produces a camera like this at $10,000 or less, and we'll see another revolution in quality.

Aug 15, 2007 at 03:01 PM
hubsand
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p.5 #24 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


It is possible to shoot low light / architectural / landscape shots with the ZD: it's just that there's a bit of a learning curve: you have to respect its limitations/ Here's something shot tonight: a 6 second exposure at ISO 100 at f4 (Zeiss Sonnar 180mm). Processing was with LR, with 50% luminance NR applied, hence the slight detail smoothing. There is also a little USM on the Lightness channel in PS, hence the slight jaggies.


This image is copyrighted by the owner



And here's a 100% crop from the crane on the right:


This image is copyrighted by the owner



There's cherry-red air traffic lighting on top of the crane and vivid green mercury vapour uplights, resulting in a cacophony of accent colours on the steels.

Aug 15, 2007 at 11:31 PM
jonboring
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p.5 #25 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions


so ... should we all go out and hot rod our 5D's (ie, remove the AA filter) ?

Aug 15, 2007 at 11:57 PM




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