Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

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Archive 2007 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Brent Ward
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p.4 #1 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
I don't want or will be on anyones payroll.

Haven't you already admitted approaching Mamiya for some kind of sponsorship?

You keep giving these glowing reviews about image quality. I'm very picky and can see that the image quality is slightly better then a 1Ds II, but not near enough to give up 3 fps with a bigger buffer & a higher ISO capabilities.

It depends what kind of fashion shooting that you do, more static poses, then the 1.2 FPS is no big deal. Try catching fleating moments @ 1 FPS!! Your gonna lose a lot of keepers.

Aug 12, 2007 at 11:43 PM

hubsand
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p.4 #2 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Seems that the P25+ would score heavily over the ZD for long exposures, but the cost differential is huge, and at ISO 50 / 100, in most other areas, the extra cost isn't justified. At ISO 400 the P25+ looks very, very clean – especially compared to the ZD. However, we are talking about a $27K back in comparison to an $8K one!

I've now shot the ZD back at most ISO / shutter speed combinations and have found the ceiling of this sample at least: 8 seconds / ISO 160. Nothing any faster or longer is manageable for colour noise without manual intervention.

Fortunately, the 50mm shift is excellent from f4-f8. Shooting under street lighting at night, or dimly lit interiors from the outside in late twilight is do-able at ISO125 / f5.6 / 8 seconds. The camera and the lens are at the edge of, but still just inside, their comfort zone at these settings.

Aug 12, 2007 at 11:53 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #3 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

hubsand wrote:

I've now shot the ZD back at most ISO / shutter speed combinations and have found the ceiling of this sample at least: 8 seconds / ISO 160. Nothing any faster or longer is manageable for colour noise without manual intervention.

.

Seems like that ceiling would be an issue for a lot of Architectural and interior shooting where you might need something like F16-F22 for depth of field and where you might be either shooting entirely or mixing ambient light with strobe. That also would cause some issues for available light Landscape shooting. These are two areas where I thought this back might really shine.

Aug 13, 2007 at 12:29 AM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #4 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

@Brent,
Oh behave

I'm not asking Mamiya for a sponsor ship, we are trying to get the name of our studio known and are looking for coörperations, HOWEVER I will NEVER EVER say something I cannot back.

The fact that you claim that the quality is only slightly better than the 1DsII proofs that you still don't understand or know what the real difference is.

Does the 1DsII have a AA filter ?
Yes it does, so the sharpness is ALOT less natural than the non AA filter MF system.

Does the 1DsII have a sensor twice the format of MF ?
No it doesn't so the circle of confussion is much smaller, so the control of DOF and depth of the picture is much less than with the MF system.

Does the 1DsII have 12 stops dynamic range ?
No it stops at arround 7-8.

Does the 1DsII have a real ISO50 ?
No, highlights are lit at ISO100.

And I can go on and on.
It's a shame I have to repeat this over and over again.
It's not only about the freaking MP's

It's about the whole system, MF differs from 35mm in a big way.

I don't do static poses most of the time, I do alot of movement and I had to adjust to the different timing of the larger mirror but when you are used to that you can shoot the same stuff I did with the 5D.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

But than again maybe I'm different, I don't need 3fps to get a good shot, I know how to time and shoot.
And again my flash system don't even support 3fps, it can keep up with my shooting style (and more IF needed).

On the other hand, when I do need the speed I can always switch to the 5D, again it's the tools for the job, there is no overal winner.

Aug 13, 2007 at 07:28 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #5 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Does the 1DsII have a AA filter ?
Yes it does, so the sharpness is ALOT less natural than the non AA filter MF system.******

Compared to film, even with the AA filter digital images look much sharper than prints from the film days, and with good lenses you often dont need any sharpening at all.

Does the 1DsII have a sensor twice the format of MF ?
No it doesn't so the circle of confussion is much smaller, so the control of DOF and depth of the picture is much less than with the MF system.*******

Yes for the sensor but the DOF comment is wrong, in fact you have better control of DOF with 35mm cameras, there are many fast lenses which will give you a very narrow DOF and stopping down provides more DOF than on a MF system.

Does the 1DsII have 12 stops dynamic range ?
No it stops at arround 7-8.******

The 1DsII has 8 2/3 of DR and I really would like to know how these cameras compare at ISO 400. Is there any DR advantage left?

Does the 1DsII have a real ISO50 ?
No, highlights are lit at ISO100.****

Yes, but the Mamiya has no ISO 800/1600/3200. Dont see the point here

And I can go on and on.*****

Please do, there is a lot of missing data which makes it really difficult to understand the advantage of the ZD back over a 1Ds.

The nice thing with Hubsands thread is that he shares his experience and he is open to critics, thanks.

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:09 AM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #6 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I'm also open for critics however they have to be solid.

Let me explain.

DOF control on the DSLR was not good for me.
Ofcourse you can use a 1.8 lens but try to use this with a ringflash on a suny day and get an out of focus background, it won't work.

With the ZD I can shoot on f11 ISO50 and still get a wonderful shallow DOF with a 105-210 zoom, due to the different FOV of the lens and the larger sensor I get an effect I normally get with my 82mm on app f3.5 / f4.

For the 5D I loved to use ISO50 but the highlights were ISO100 so it was always a struggle to keep the highlights outside (in the studio that was not a problem).

Again ISO400 is mentioned, this is as explained before totally wrong.
When you use a MF system you are often shooting in controlled situations and ISO50-100 is much more important than ISO400 or higher, again when I need that I will use the 5D or 1DsII or whatever DSLR that handles it.
Different tools different uses.

I really wonder if people read what people write down, or just scan for words to disagree.

I have mentioned alot of things that are different with the MF system, and also things I don't like about the ZD.
But as mentioned before it's all a simple question of what do I need.

For my model photography I have used above ISO200 in 2 sessions.
For sports I will probarbly never use the ZD, also not for birding.
However that's a very dumb remark because that's not the market the MF system is aimed at.

It's a slower process to shoot with MF, but to be honest for ME PERSONALLY

that's not a minus, but a plus, you are forced to think more about composition and poses.

About the sharpness.
When you take a shot with the 5D and zoom in on the very small details you will see a mush of detail, it's blotchy and not refined.
When you zoom in on the same detail on the ZD you can see a nice refinement in the small details, again this is logical because there is a REAL capture of detail and not a smoothing due to the AA filter.

It's not being rosy, it's the simple facts that count here.

Again I'm not a DSLR hater, I still love my 5D and use it very regulary.

Let's put it this way.
The 5D can do ALOT and does is very good to adequate.
It can do birding, sports, studio, outside, street, landscape, architectural etc.

The MF system can do somethings but does it VERY good.
It excels in the studio and with controlled lighting or very high contrast scenes.
The real limitation is that you have to stay below ISO200 and below 8 seconds exposures.

Please don't understand my posts wrong, I love a good discussion and that's why I also defend the posts I made, I think alot of people are helped by reading the discussions, I can also just shut up and don't respond, however I don't think that will help.

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:24 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #7 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

OK you found the tool you need/want for your shooting and I respect this.

However the question is not whether you can do weddings or fashion or packs or whatever with a system. You can do fashion with a throw away camera when you have the client who agrees to go this way with you.
The question is how far you can customize it to your individual needs.

Aug 13, 2007 at 11:36 AM

hubsand
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p.4 #8 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Tariq Gibran wrote:
hubsand wrote:
I've now shot the ZD back at most ISO / shutter speed combinations and have found the ceiling of this sample at least: 8 seconds / ISO 160. Nothing any faster or longer is manageable for colour noise without manual intervention.

Seems like that ceiling would be an issue for a lot of Architectural and interior shooting where you might need something like F16-F22 for depth of field and where you might be either shooting entirely or mixing ambient light with strobe. That also would cause some issues for available light Landscape shooting. These are two areas where I thought this back might really shine.

Indeed. This would create an interesting dilemma for a location shooter with both cameras in the bag: shoot multiple exposures for DoF with the ZD, or multiple exposures for DR with the 5D . . . ?

The ZD would still give you a better image – and stacking the exposures would help reduce the noise – but replace the 5D with a 22MP 1Ds and the choice becomes moot: the end result would be practically identical for that application.

Canon would really have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to match the ZD's image quality – at the same price point (cheaper if you factor in the lenses) – for daylight or studio shooting, though, with all the previous caveats taken into account.

Aug 13, 2007 at 12:01 PM

Brent Ward
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p.4 #9 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Have you guys noticed an increase in moir shooting clothing without the AA filter in the ZD?

I would guess yes.

Also, I'm well aware of the advantages of all things regarding MF.

I don't know any fashion shooter that wouldn't complain about 1fps!!! I can shoot faster with my Pentax 67.

Regarding the detail, I posted a shot from the 1ds II + 85 1.2 that compared nicely to the ZD's detail.

About the shallow DOF with a ring flash, you have me there.

Aug 13, 2007 at 03:20 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #10 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Moire can be seen on some shots, but MUCH less than I expected.
I was planning on buying the lowpass filter, but I have put that on hold for the time being, I did not order it straight away due to the review on luminous landscapes.
Up untill now I had no REAL issues with moire to justify the 1400,00 euros.

In a session I will probarbly have 1 out of 20 shots with moire, but most are solved in 2 minutes with the plugin from C1 (which I used previously).
So not a REAL issue, but it happens more than with the 5D (which again is logical).

Brent, the ringflash issue (or flash at a whole) and the shallow depth of field is for me the most important thing in what I do.
I LOVE to wack a background OOF and still have total control over the exposure of the background outside (meaning making it darker than my model).

As mentioned before it's all about personal preferences, and my personal preferences were always towards the MF system, but I could never afford.

There will always be someone who will have pictures that compare nicely to something else.
The only think no-one can ever show me is the depth or 3D look of the pictures I get from the MF system.
Again, detail is in the details, most of my customers don't even watch for it, they just love the shots period.

That's why in my review I don't really talk about the MP's, the other factors are SO much more important for me.

About the 1fps there is said enough I think, I'm an almost full time fashion photographer and I PERSONALLY don't need it.
If it will happen in the future in a MF I would embrace it, but it would not be a reason to upgrade if that's the only thing.
It's nice to have, so would be ISO1600, or a usable display.

However there is a NEED and a would love to have it

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:00 PM

Brent Ward
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p.4 #11 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

I would love a Digital MF system, but I'm leaning toward one with a 1000th flash sync so I can use it outdoors better.

The 3d look is easily acheived on a 1Ds II or 5D by using alternative glass.

Not sure I understand your take on moire with regards to it's logical that the 5D should have worse moire using an AA filter than the ZD which doesn't.

I personlly can't wait to get back to a bigger view finder.

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:13 PM

Ben Horne
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p.4 #12 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Brent Ward wrote:

The 3d look is easily acheived on a 1Ds II or 5D by using alternative glass.

I've had the opportunity to shoot with the ZD back, and was very impressed with the quality. I can tell you that the 3D look of the ZD is from two factors:

1) MF Depth of Field
2) Increased Dynamic Range

You can not achieve the Dynamic Range of MF with a 1DsII or a 5D. It's something you have to experience to get a better feeling for. That being said, I'm likely to buy the new 1DsmkIII (or whatever it will be), but the ZD is very tempting at that price point.

I did find the moire to be an issue in most shots. I would love to shoot with a ZD with the lowpass filter to see how the quality compares.

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:20 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #13 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

This is what I mean by not reading but scanning.

My sentence was:
So not a REAL issue, but it happens more than with the 5D (which again is logical).

By the way, check the specs of the other brands and you will see that the 1.2fps of the ZD is not that bad

1/1000th flash sync wow, again check the specs of the other brands.
You will only get high speed syncs with a Hasselblad or a leaf shutter.

I really post by post think that you should investigate before burning down a product, and I mean that with no disrespect.

Let's look at the Hassy H3D, a tool which I believe in the states is the norm for high end fashion is it not ??

Capture rate ZD 1.2 frames per second / Capture rate of the H3D 1.4 seconds per frame
Both systems go to ISO400, and without a doubt I guess the hassy will be better on ISO400 but not as good as a 5D on ISO800

The H3D will sync flash up to 1/800s with the correct lenses, the ZD will only do 1/125s
But again hasselblad is rather unique with this.

The difference in pricing is enourmous.
The EVENTUAL IMAGE QUALITY however is NOT.
The only real thing about the ZD for me is that I would love a real 16 bits capture device, but for the time being the ZD performs what I expect.
The hassy has some smoother skintones (by the way I only shot with the H3D39 and H2D22 so I don't have a solid knowledge on the system), but the 3D look and the QUALITY of the image is on both systems very high.
For me in the end I could not see the difference in a price increase of 3x.

When you look arround you, you will see that a lot of high-end fashion/glamour photographers are using the Hasselblad system, and they don't need the 3fps

Edited by J.A.F. Doorhof on Aug 13, 2007 at 04:31 PM GMT

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:25 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #14 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

@Ben,
When you shoot alot of fine details I can understand the need for a low pass filter. The nice thing is you can buy it and use it, but you can also opt for not to use/buy it.

I myself am only working with the system for app 2 months now and don't see the need to shelve out 1400,00 for it at the moment, when I find Moire to become a problem I will immediatly upgrade the system.
But as mentioned before at the moment the moire experienced is solved with a filter in a few minutes.

Also in the studio you can quite easily check for it and adjust your angle slightly to eliminate it at the moment of capture.

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:29 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #15 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Ben Horne wrote:
Brent Ward wrote:

The 3d look is easily acheived on a 1Ds II or 5D by using alternative glass.

I've had the opportunity to shoot with the ZD back, and was very impressed with the quality. I can tell you that the 3D look of the ZD is from two factors:

1) MF Depth of Field
2) Increased Dynamic Range

You can not achieve the Dynamic Range of MF with a 1DsII or a 5D. It's something you have to experience to get a better feeling for. That being said, I'm likely to buy the new 1DsmkIII (or whatever it will be), but the ZD is very tempting at that price point.

I did find the moire to be an issue in most shots. I would love to shoot with a ZD with the lowpass filter to see how the quality compares.

I have to really wonder - and I have not used the ZD back - about the claims of increased Dynamic Range. It certainly makes sense that it would be more than say the 5D and Mark/Hubsand has stated that he does see more highlight detail. But Mark also states that noise becomes a major issue in the shadows if the exposure is not nailed, even at the low ASA's which the ZD can really only be used at. We know that if for instance we underexpose the 5D enough to protect the important highlight detail that we can in fact regain a lot of Detail from the shadows without terrible noise. This in effect increases the Dynamic Range quite a bit when shooting RAW. So is it still the case that the ZD fie really has more useable dynamic range compared to the 5D if we underexpose the 5D as above and recover useable detail from the shadows(which we apparently cannot do from the ZD). Seems like this would come close to equalizing the ZD advantage in the highlights. Just wondering out loud.

Adding the low pass filter to the ZD will surely kill its apparent sharpness and 3D look.

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:48 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #16 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Hi,
3D look will not be comprimised and according to Mamiya (the manual) the sharpness would also not be affected, however I have no hands down experience with this.

About dynamic range.
As opposite to Mark I find that I can recover shadows up untill 1-2 stops with the ZD, arround the same as with the 5D on ISO50.
HOWEVER this is on ISO50.
Use ISO200 for example and you don't want to do this, on ISO200 you have to nail the exposure perfectly.

If you want I can give you some ISO50 files to play with just mail me.

Dynamic range is really stunning, some people claim the files look too much HDR when I posted some on another forum, while they were straight from the camera

This is an ISO200 shot, I pumped the colors higher (a bit too high) but the rest is out of the camera.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

And two ISO50 shots on a bright day as you can see by the very sharp shadows.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Greetings,
Frank

Aug 13, 2007 at 04:56 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #17 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:

Let's look at the Hassy H3D, a tool which I believe in the states is the norm for high end fashion is it not ??

When you look arround you, you will see that a lot of high-end fashion/glamour photographers are using the Hasselblad system, and they don't need the 3fps

Edited by J.A.F. Doorhof on Aug 13, 2007 at 04:31 PM GMT

But a lot if not most of these shooters DO need a large Fast Buffer which will not keep them waiting. The Hasselblad as well as the Phase One backs have much faster write speeds than the ZD back and, of course, you pay for it. Most of these guys are also shooting a fast DSLR as well for when they do need the speed. So like you say, don't sell your DSLR.

Aug 13, 2007 at 05:33 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #18 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:
Hi,
3D look will not be comprimised and according to Mamiya (the manual) the sharpness would also not be affected, however I have no hands down experience with this.

About dynamic range.
As opposite to Mark I find that I can recover shadows up untill 1-2 stops with the ZD, arround the same as with the 5D on ISO50.
HOWEVER this is on ISO50.
Use ISO200 for example and you don't want to do this, on ISO200 you have to nail the exposure perfectly.

If you want I can give you some ISO50 files to play with just mail me.

Dynamic range is really stunning, some people claim the files look too much HDR when I posted some on another forum, while they were straight from the camera

This is an ISO200 shot, I pumped the colors higher (a bit too high) but the rest is out of the camera.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

And two ISO50 shots on a bright day as you can see by the very sharp shadows.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Greetings,
Frank

What jumps out at me about these shots is not the dynamic range which I'm sure I could match with my 5D(in these particular shots) but the great color and contrast. This is exactly what I see when I mount my Zeiss lenses onto my 5D - Great microcontrast coupled with that punchy color which contributes to that 3D look. I have yet to see this look from my Canon Glass.

I'm wondering if Mark may have received a bad back given the dramatic experience differences the two of you have seen with regard to shadow noise and the ability to recover noiseless detail.

Aug 13, 2007 at 05:41 PM

Brent Ward
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p.4 #19 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Page turn?

Aug 13, 2007 at 06:48 PM

pookipichu
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p.4 #20 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Not to be contentious but I feel like the grocery and landscape shots just posted do not have natural coloration. They look excessively saturated on my monitor. The studio portraits, however, by Frank have beautiful color and tone to my eye. I feel perhaps that color rendition is so highly subjective, it's far easier to identify awful color rendition versus one lens manufacturer being superior to another, especially after PP.

Medium format digital looks very promising and I am glad prices are becoming more affordable. The recent threads have been illuminating on the benefits and drawbacks of it versus 35mm digital. The debate mirrors that of the 4:3 factions vs. 35mm digital and all it shows is that different people need different tools with neither really being superior over the other.

Aug 13, 2007 at 08:00 PM

pdmphoto
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p.4 #21 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

The "moire problem", due to lack of an AA filter, is way overblown. The advantage in edge accutance is a great advantage, especially with high resolution lenses. I'm always surprised to see users going to great lengths to find lenses with great edge accutance, only to use them on a DSLR with an AA filter. Some of these users will go to great lengths to talk about the moire problem, even though they have never owned a camera without an AA filter.

I've never used the ZD, but I have used the SLR/c for a couple years now. I see moire is so few shots it never even comes to mind, and the percentage of affected shots is so small I pause to even assign them a very small number. Of course, if you are determined to create a case against moire you can. But even then, post processing programs have tools to correct it. If you think you still can't use them for fashion, take a look over at the Leica forum. Guy (remember him) has been doing his share of that lately without an AA filter - no complaints. Most of the other users on the Leica Digital forum were ex Canon/Nikon DLSR users who used to believe an AA filtere was needed. They now love the results they get without one.

Aug 13, 2007 at 08:08 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #22 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

None of the MFDB I know have AA filter. Moiré is often seen on prints, even when your raw file has non of them. I think it is a great idea to offer the AA filter as an option. I believe one of the problems with M8 jpgs is the in camera anti-moiré processing which actually harms the quality more than a AA-filter

Aug 13, 2007 at 08:18 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #23 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

J.A.F. Doorhof wrote:

I really post by post think that you should investigate before burning down a product, and I mean that with no disrespect.

Edited by J.A.F. Doorhof on Aug 13, 2007 at 04:31 PM GMT

So why do you think we step on your toes?

I would not buy a product at this price without handling it in a shop, though it is nice to know what you have to check once you are there.

BTW I am more interested in the back than the camera itself

Aug 13, 2007 at 08:25 PM

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p.4 #24 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Andi Dietrich wrote:
None of the MFDB I know have AA filter. Moiré is often seen on prints, even when your raw file has non of them. I think it is a great idea to offer the AA filter as an option.
Are these your prints you are referring to? How about showing us a scan and the original file? I don't see it in prints, and my SLR/c doesn't have any in camera suppression. On the handfull of shots I've seen it on, it's there on conversion of the RAW file, where I can get rid of it easily enough. Some RAW file programs like Silkypix remove it automatically on conversion

Andi Dietrich wrote:
I believe one of the problems with M8 jpgs is the in camera anti-moiré processing which actually harms the quality more than a AA-filter
Who uses the jpg engine in the M8? It's known to have a whole list of issues, so just about everyone uses RAW (which they probably would anyway - just like when they shot Canon/Nikon). They are all happily shooting RAW:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/index3.html

Aug 13, 2007 at 08:57 PM

J.A.F. Doorhof
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p.4 #25 · Mamiya ZD: First Impressions

Andi, I don't think any steps on my toes, don't worry.
The problem with the internet you can't see each other faces to find out what the poster is thinking.

However what I do find frustating is that people put down a product (I don't care which product) with remarks that are ridicilous.

On dpreview there was a thread a while ago were all the things were combined.

The ZD was bad because:
It did not offer a lens longer than 300mm.
It did not give you ISO1600 like a 5D.
It had too slow lenses.
It had a too slow shooting speed (5fps was needed for fashion).
It had a worthless display (well on that last one I agree

)

It's like saying a Ferrari is bad because:
It's doesn't drive on dirtroads.
It's too low to drive over rocks.

As mentioned before tools for the trade.

There are alot of people/GWaC or so called photographers out there that think the only good camera is a camera that does all.
I'm working for 95% in the modelphotography business, anything longer than 200mm on the MF system is not a must for me, ISO200 is hardly ever used etc. etc.

The more you specialise in a trade the more specialist the tools become, but the more specialised tools excell in one department and don't do the other departments, it however not that they FAIL in the other departments, they are not designed for that.

That's more the reason for my debate.

Aug 13, 2007 at 09:11 PM


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