p.2 #1 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I fully agree, a fully functional pancake lens on an e-410 and I would be done. Sure we could then niggle about corner sharpness or wishing for f1.4 or moan about missing a mediocre and much larger zoom or whatever other things we want to dream about. But we would have a full sized sensor, manual controls, raw, decent build quality and most importantly, about the same size or smaller than a G7.
I would happily hand over the 1,250 usd or whatever that worked out to cost (the body here in HK seems a fair amount cheaper than the USA) so fast it would make your head spin. Hello, anyone from Olympus reading this?
p.2 #2 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I use the GX100 frquently, and I have never noticed a drop in resolution with increased ISO. Incresed noise yes, but quite usable at ISO 200.
The one problem is the slow write of a RAW file (aboout 4.5"). There is a hyperfocal focus setting (Snap) which speeds up the actual shot since there is no focus lag. However, the AF is pretty fast.
p.2 #7 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
munckee wrote:
I'd be willing to pay for a decent small cam. I'd rather not spend $1000 on it, but for $500-600 I could be convinced.
I could easily see spending in $1000 on one. Maybe even $1500, if the quality/features of it justified it). I really don't think you'll see one (quality one, that is) for $500. The market is relatively small, so the manufacturer will have use a higher price rather than volume to get their fixed (investment) costs back.
munckee wrote:
The kicker for me on something like the Ricoh is the additional cost of the viewfinder. $200 is obscene.
Obscene is quite right. Especially since it would cost maybe a quarter of that if they included it with the camera, and even less if they just built a real optical viewfinder into the camera itself. They remove a key usability feature for many, many potential users, and to get it back (with essentially reduced functionality) you have to pay not just for the separate piece, but for all the extra packaging and, marketing, and all the additional costs and profits of distributors, middlemen and retailers along the way. Quite frankly, this is just revenue enhancement device for the value chain. They can exploit they ones who value to feature the most because they are the one most likely to pay extra for it (i.e., those more "serious" about a camera's use).
p.2 #8 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I have the gX100 and loved it. The 24mm and 19mm conversion is fantastic!
I'm not sure how much u guys have to pay for the cam and all the accessories. However, the cam + EVF + hood + adapter + 19mm lens conversion cost me about USD $620. Yes, it is one of the more expensive lens in the market but the premium isn't obscene.
p.2 #9 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
weekh wrote:
I have the gX100 and loved it. The 24mm and 19mm conversion is fantastic!
I'm not sure how much u guys have to pay for the cam and all the accessories. However, the cam + EVF + hood + adapter + 19mm lens conversion cost me about USD $620. Yes, it is one of the more expensive lens in the market but the premium isn't obscene.
Sounds like you got a really good deal. Adarama sells the body only for 599.00
p.2 #10 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
Lotusm50: agree 100%. The 410 that is sitting on the desk in front of me as I type absolutely NEEDS a small range of pancakes.
My suggestions (anyone reading out there) are:
10mm, 17mm, 20mm. The current zooms are good, not doubt, but I would pay premiums for these lens lengths I mention. The 410 is smaller than the OM-4 sitting alongsde it, believe it or not.
p.2 #12 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
weekh wrote:
US retailers are making big profits!
What I had is the normal retail price in Singapore.
It's not only the retailers it also (and probably mainly) the US distributor.
I mean how much sense to the consumer does it make to charge $45-50 for an optional plastic hood? Or to package it with the "adapter" for the auxiliary lens? The adapter is virtually useless to you unless you by the auxiliary lens so why do you get forced to buy it if you want the hood? Why isn't it included with the auxiliary lens? And why is the cheap little plastic hood sold separately as an "option" anyway? It costs no more than $1 to make and include with the camera and is essential to many users -- so why rape your customers needlessly? (the same argument goes for the cheap plastic adapter). The little plastic hood was included in the past with the Ricoh GR1s camera, why change that policy other than to try to needlessly extract more money from your customers? Ricoh is really barking up the wrong tree if they think that this is an effective strategy to win over customers and build market share. Their product strategy here is really a big turn-off and there is too much competition in this market (and their product is sufficiently unremarkable) such that it is too easy for customers to go somewhere else.
p.2 #13 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
The cam with the EVF set sells for S$850. The retailers here will package it (throw in) together with the adapter and hood.
The 19mm conversion lens cost S$130.
p.2 #14 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I don't understand why we are talking about reinventing the wheel. It's clear that there is no digital alternative to what the op is asking. What's wrong with film? Really, if you so want digital files and don't want to scan them yourself then get them digitized at costco or target when they develop it. Not the best i agree but you can always rescan the good ones (as opposed to retaking a shot with a crappy toy digital).
Seriously get a nikon 35Ti or Contax T2/T3 or Leica minilux and be happy.
p.2 #15 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
stompyq wrote:
I don't understand why we are talking about reinventing the wheel. It's clear that there is no digital alternative to what the op is asking. What's wrong with film?
I think thaty people are generally expressing their frustration that manufacturers have not stepped up and produced a quality digital compact, that is, quality comparable to film compacts. I don't think we are talking about re-inventing the wheel but rather realizing the logical progression of the wheel.
I and others, suggesting that a quality digital compact does not exist, have recommended film compacts. (go back through the posts in this thread and you'll find we're pretty much in agreement).
The Contax T2/T3, the Ricoh GR1, Leica Minilux and CM, the Nikon Ti's, even the really retro Rollei 35's, all are capable of exceptional image quality. And I should point out that both Fuji and Kodak film over the last few years has continued to improve.
p.2 #16 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I would add that forums are where the designers might find out what people really want in these sorts of cameras, too. I live in hope that one wil be designed and built to meet this need. Cost is not that important to me, but the quality of the image is.
I agree about all the great compact film cameras that people have mentioned, but film is just not part of my workflow now, hence threads like these.
p.2 #17 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
I would pay $1500 for a compact. But it would have to at least a 2/3" sensor, fast glass, next to nothing shutter lag, and excellent image quality at ISO 400.
Right now, I have the Canon Pro 1 that I use for my compact.
p.2 #18 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
The GRD is a fine little camera. Yes, it is expensive, but it produces excellent results and is a joy to use. The rumor mill has a GRD-2 projected for October FWIW.
Another choice might be the 8MP Panasonic LX1 (I have the Leica version, the D-LUX 2). I'd get it over the newer LX2 for lesser MP and therefore better noise characteristics. It is 28-100mm with a true 16X9 sensor, with full controls and RAW capability. I glued a CV 28/35mm mini-finder on mine as I use the 28mm setting so much and it works very well.
Both of these cameras can be said to be "noisy" but be realistic, you're not going to get, nor should you expect noise-free performance from these small sensors. You can shoot at lower ISOs (200 & 400) and push the exposure compensation to get better results than the native higher ISOs also.
I use these cameras and get great looking B&W shots that are very reminiscent of Tri-X. The GRD's "noise" is the best I've seen for appearing as film grain.
p.2 #19 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
Simon Hughes wrote:
The GRD is a fine little camera. Yes, it is expensive, but it produces excellent results and is a joy to use. The rumor mill has a GRD-2 projected for October FWIW.
You are obviously very forgiving. I compared the GRD when it came out to the GR1s that I had loaded with Kodak Portra 400VC (color negative film). The GR1s with 400 speed negative film provided more detail and resolution, less noise (grain), and sharper than the GRD at 100 speed. To me and many other GR1 users, the GRD was a big disappointment. Not only in image quality but it it's feature set (removing the optical viewfinder from the camera and then charging the customer $200 to get a less functional one back -- yes, this REALLY annoys me). And as for the GRD's noise looking like "film grain" is rationalization of the highest order. It really just looks like crap.
Perhaps if a GRD-2 is coming out in October, maybe Ricoh will have listen to all the comments, complaints, and disappointment voiced about the camera and finally get it right. That means a integral, integrated viewfinder, manual control, a substantial sensor (4/3'rd minimum, APS-c preferred) to provide REAL image quality, and an included lens hood (no $50 add on to get the little cheap plastic hood). They really need to take a better look and re-examine why the GR1 was a successful classic. If they do, maybe with the GRD-2 they can turn the GRD from an expensive dud into the significant sought-after product that people expected a digital GR1 to be.
p.2 #20 · Small manual digicam w/personality? (Ricoh GR Digital?)
Rather than forgiving, maybe I'm just ready to accept that there is such a miniscule segment of the overall digicam market that wants what you (and I) really do that we need to be happy with whatever comes closest. I've had design and marketing experience enough to know that a company has to create products that have mass-marketing appeal, and that means we, the "power-users", will always have to compromise on what we expect.
The GRD offers the closest I've yet seen to that compromise to give a solid, practical, flexible user experience. You're dreaming if you think that the GRD-2 , or any other camera, will give you all that you're asking for... no company would ever recoup their development costs on such a small market niche.
You need to get beyond comparisons with film cameras... if you want film, then shoot film and scan it and stop lamenting how digital doesn't give you the same results. These small cameras are a totally different breed of beast, with very different characteristics and different methods of usage.
My "rationalization" as to the noise/grain characteristics is not mine alone, there are many satisfied GRD users. It's a shame you can't find what you're looking for in a small digicam, but obviously many of us are quite content to use what we have in hand and are out there producing excellent images.
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