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Archive 2006 · new Zeiss T/S lens
  
 
kites4
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p.6 #1 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Stephan,

First off I'd like to say that I wish you and the company the best of luck....

I think its a good idea to upgrade these lens systems with better glass and better
materials and of course better engineering....

But having said this, Luck you will need.... If the priceing is like being suggested here
in the thousands of dollars, I just don't see you selling too many of these at those prices...

If on the other hand the price say comes in at or slightly lower than say the Canon lens...

Then you have a better chance....




Sep 22, 2006 at 10:47 AM
Lotusm50
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p.6 #2 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Stefan Steib wrote:well, you seem to have misunderstood. The Hartblei company is NOT Arsenal.

Well, that was the impression you gave by suggesting that 5000 people from Arsenal would be working on this. I would suggest that in the future you not use any references to Arsenal. It does not help you in any way. It does not matter how capable they actually are. It just matters what your potential customers think.


Stefan Steib wrote:As is written on our Website and in the Pressrelease the whole optical unit is done by Carl Zeiss Germany. This is a module that is put into barrels which were developed by Hartblei according to the original standards and construction designs we were able to access.

Where does it say this on your website? I have read both the German and English versions. Sorry, I could not find it. Is there some other press release that is not on your website (http://www.hartblei.de/)? Or is this press release actually available somewhere else and we do not yet have a link to it?

Now just to be clear and everything is fully understood, what exactly do you mean by, "the whole optical unit is done by Carl Zeiss Germany"? Does this mean Zeiss designed it, or does it mean that Zeiss actually manufactures the optical unit and the lens elements in Germany at Zeiss owned and operated facilities? Are the lens elements installed in the lens barrel by Zeiss and then sent to Hartblei for the mechanism, or are the lens elements produced by Zeiss installed in the lens barrel by Hartblei?

Finally, are the finished lenses in Kiev subject to the same Zeiss quality control oversight and procedures implemented for Zeiss lenses produced at Cosina and Kyocera facilities?


Sep 22, 2006 at 11:18 AM
dcmiller
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p.6 #3 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Hartblei mechanics are very good. While the design of the Hartblei/Zeiss lenses are changed, I'm confident the new design will be as good or better. The finish on the Hartblei is good, but not what most photographers are accustomed. Stefan stated that the new lens will have a different coating..

Sep 22, 2006 at 12:16 PM
pookipichu
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p.6 #4 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Stefan, I applaud your efforts and your company's efforts to bring quality lenses to the market. That having been said, I have used T/S lenses from both Canon and Nikon. From personal experience, the Nikon T/S is probably one of the sharpest lenses made, flare resistant, CA resistant, great color rendition, and no vignetting. They have managed to make an extremely competent mass produced product. I would be interested in seeing comparison between your similarly spec'ed lens and the difference in performance and resolving power.

While the Canon 24 3.5L is suboptimal, the 90mm TS is quite good and the Nikkor 85 is superb. A Zeiss wide angle TS would have little competition, but your mid tele must overcome the law of diminishing returns. If it is only marginally better than an already stellar product, it seems like it would attract more technicians or pixel peepers more than actual working professionals given multiple fold price increase. I'm just wondering the actual viability of such a business model in an age when the queen of boutique lenses, Leica is fighting bankruptcy. Despite the handfull of proponents on this board, the vast un-tapped market of emerging photographers are buying lenses for under $2000. If your company only cares about these elite few 35mm users, who have not yet jumped to the P45 phaseback, or use a 35mm in conjunction with their digital back, then I am not your target audience so ignore me.

I would not want the quality of your lenses compromised, nor is price necessarily the issue, but if you want to convince consumers like me, show us that the lenses are MUCH better. We need comparisons, we need to know that other options are so inferior, your $4000 lens is the sensible option, because that's the only time I buy a lens more expensive than a grand.

Anyhoo it's just a thought...

Sep 22, 2006 at 03:22 PM
Stefan Steib
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p.6 #5 · new Zeiss T/S lens


First of all - thanks for your comments because they are valuable for us.

Now about the facts.
The Lenses as groups are completely made in Germany by Carl Zeiss, whereas the Barrel (thats the Metall which holds the Lenses) is made in Kiev from the same Aluminium that Zeiss uses, the parts are sent to Germany and anodized black at Carl Zeiss. The assembly is then completely done in the Ukraine, controlled by measurement equipment supplied by Zeiss. Do we hold up to the Cosina Standard ? I hope we do at least that.

Now for the comparison lenses: pretty short list as there really is none with the exact same feature of superrotation. period.

If you work more with tilt you will know that the image is also moving, to compensate that without having to move the camera you need a slight shift adjustment to stay exactly in your layout.
Now as this can be accomplished by other fixed function TS lenses in some cases, as soon as you have perspektive coming in and sharpness to be applied to a sujet you need the freedom to put it where you need it. Now with the canon or Nikon you have not much choice (you can open screws with the canons and readjust it in 90 " steps as there are 4 screws in each corner) now do a catalog of different stuff with different angles and perspectives. either you need a good screwdriver or a superrotator.
I have already several orders here for the prototypes which will sell after Photokina, all came in during the last 3-4 days when people got aware of the lenses
.
The deal will be a 10-15 % Rebate to the (still to be announced) listprice, as well as a guarantee that we will treat theses customers as specially supported field testers until the final product is available. If anbody wants to switch later he will be able to do so at no add. cost.

I think we will find our customers. Sinar by the way sells the same 40mmIF as Digital lens for Highresolution Backs, I think our price will be extremely competitive compared to that.

Stefan www.hartblei.de

Sep 22, 2006 at 04:46 PM
jjlphoto
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p.6 #6 · new Zeiss T/S lens


shirozina wrote:
Unfortunatley the 40mm with only 12mm of shift is not going to get many architectural photographers interested





Zeiss's last model of the Hasselblad 40mm, the 40/IF lens was reported to be a quantum leap over the previous 40, even better than the legendary Contax Zeiss PC35 CY with its 10mm of shift.

I can the lenses flipping right now. Sell my Canon 45TSE and my CZ PC35 for the Hartblie 40!

Shades of Guy Mancuso!

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 11:59 AM GMT

Sep 22, 2006 at 04:56 PM
Stefan Steib
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p.6 #7 · new Zeiss T/S lens


About the 40mm IF quality: Believe it. Itīs a fact.

BTW. Arsenal does and has done more than the cameras and lenses that you may know. They are still assembling stuff like rocket warheads guidesystems with optical target recognition and more things they donīt talk about.
Further in Kiev also is Planemaker Antonov - about the same situation as arsenal , but already improving.These guys have built the largest airplanes in the world-being able to transport 300 tons of equipment, still one of the best ever built airplanes.
I feel it is only fair to do not judge people of the mistakes they (or their political leaders )have done in the past, but look what they do now and further into the future.
I want to give back these guys the chance to do their very best craftsmanship and be proud of it. Maybe this is even more important than money

Stefan

Sep 22, 2006 at 05:35 PM
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p.6 #8 · new Zeiss T/S lens


pookipichu wrote:
I'm just wondering the actual viability of such a business model in an age when the queen of boutique lenses, Leica is fighting bankruptcy.


Could you give a source for this claim?

Sep 22, 2006 at 11:14 PM
jjlphoto
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p.6 #9 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 05:26 PM GMT (Reason: Correction)

Sep 22, 2006 at 11:19 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.6 #10 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Hermes, French, I think

Sep 22, 2006 at 11:22 PM
carstenw
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p.6 #11 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Hermes is a french design house, and sold. The buyer already held 24% of Leica stock or something like that, I think. From the sounds of it, it was a good thing. Hermes sounded like they didn't want to invest anything in Leica.

John, could you quote a source for the bankruptcy claim? I am asking because from all that I have read, this is all at least two years back, and I don't think they were ever in the equivalent of chapter 11, but just under heavy pressure. More recently, they have been stable, to my knowledge, if somewhat lacklustre, except the DMR.

Sep 22, 2006 at 11:25 PM
woodyspedden
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p.6 #12 · new Zeiss T/S lens


jjlphoto wrote:
shirozina wrote:
Unfortunatley the 40mm with only 12mm of shift is not going to get many architectural photographers interested





Zeiss's last model of the Hasselblad 40mm, the 40/IF lens was reported to be a quantum leap over the previous 40, even better than the legendary Contax Zeiss PC35 CY with its 10mm of shift.

I can the lenses flipping right now. Sell my Canon 45TSE and my CZ PC35 for the Hartblie 40!

Shades of Guy Mancuso!

I can tell you that I may one day get a Hartblei TS lens. I don't have any predisposition against Ukraine products whatsoever. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I will wait to see what Hartblei can actually achieve with their lenses.

On the other hand there is no way I will give up my CZ 35PC. This is a truly special lens (Thanks Bathman for a LNIB copy!) and it would be stupid to think I need one more lens, not in addition to, but instead of this crown jewel.

Just My Humble Opinion

Woody Spedden
Great state of Colorado

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 11:59 AM GMT



Sep 23, 2006 at 12:25 AM
Stefan Steib
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p.6 #13 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.

Now something else about using a Hartblei Zeiss Superrotator.

Yesterday I had an interesting experience about another photographer approaching to me when I was shooting some architecture. I mean he spotted the 40mm in shifted and tilted position, itīs a really BIG lens and it shows itself to be different.
He was so curious about it and asked me several questions and we got 2-3 other bystanders, all Hobby photographers which were lively discussing about this "lens monster". Their overall tenor was this to be clearly professional equipment which shows to be expensive but impressive.
Now remember about your own customers who may also be bystanders when you are shooting. Maybe we should make the barrels even bulkier.......

Stefan www.hartblei.de

Sep 23, 2006 at 05:47 AM
 



Lotusm50
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p.6 #14 · new Zeiss T/S lens


jjlphoto wrote:
Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/


The article you quote is from 3 August, 2005. There is no indication whether Leica's financial position has improved or deteriorated in the intervening year.

Stefan Steib wrote:
Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.


Not really a fair comparision as this include ALL of Carl Zeiss' businesses not just camera lenses, which is really a small portion of the total overall. And if it was just cameras and camera lensesas Leica's is, it would probably be just as bad as Leica. Without the various Contax lines over the past 2 years and without Hasselblad (and for all intents and purposes without Rollei as well), there are hurting as well. The trickle of sales from Zeiss Ikon, ZM, and ZF lenses isn't making up for that -- Wow! They sold out the first run of 1500 Zeiss Ikon bodies!! ;-) . And the royalty they get from Sony for their use the Zeiss name on the Sony P&S digicams is not significant. I would be very surprised is they got as much as a dollar per camera. Photography at Carl Zeiss is not in much better shape than Leica. Leica, I believe has the better strategy moving foward but Zeiss' photography business can be subsidized by the rest of Carl Zeiss' businesses (of course we don't really know what is going on with Contax, but I don't expect the ZA lenses to be big sellers, or provide much revenue back to CZ -- Zeiss' involvement with them is apparently marginal as they are not even Zeiss designs).


Sep 23, 2006 at 12:43 PM
woodyspedden
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p.6 #15 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Lotusm50 wrote:
jjlphoto wrote:
Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/


The article you quote is from 3 August, 2005. There is no indication whether Leica's financial position has improved or deteriorated in the intervening year.

Stefan Steib wrote:
Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.


Zeiss also has the advantage of producing the world's best cine lenses for professional use. These lenses which sell for upwards of $50,000 per copy, provide a solid revenue stream, and a stream which does not exist at Leica.

Woody

Not really a fair comparision as this include ALL of Carl Zeiss' businesses not just camera lenses, which is really a small portion of the total overall. And if it was just cameras and camera lensesas Leica's is, it would probably be just as bad as Leica. Without the various Contax lines over the past 2 years and without Hasselblad (and for all intents and purposes without Rollei as well), there are hurting as well. The trickle of sales from Zeiss Ikon, ZM, and ZF lenses isn't making up for that -- Wow! They sold out the first run of 1500 Zeiss Ikon bodies!! ;-) . And the royalty they get from Sony for their use the Zeiss name on the Sony P&S digicams is not significant. I would be very surprised is they got as much as a dollar per camera. Photography at Carl Zeiss is not in much better shape than Leica. Leica, I believe has the better strategy moving foward but Zeiss' photography business can be subsidized by the rest of Carl Zeiss' businesses (of course we don't really know what is going on with Contax, but I don't expect the ZA lenses to be big sellers, or provide much revenue back to CZ -- Zeiss' involvement with them is apparently marginal as they are not even Zeiss designs).



Sep 23, 2006 at 01:52 PM
kites4
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p.6 #16 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Stephan, I must admit that the first time I pulled one of your lens out of the box I was very much taken back as to the bulk heft, finish and mechanical movements. Its a lens that is so much removed from any conventional design that it stands out like a one man freak show... sorry to sound that way, but actually I liked it being this way as it added a new twist to my lens inventory and I just wanted to twist it every way possible to see what pic's I could get out it... So yes its an attention getter, a fun lens to work with....

I'm sure going forward you can get a lot of sales from just the notariety by itself....

As good as the Zeis glass is going to make a cool lens and even better lens, I think that
most folks are too used to seeing the Zeis icon plastered all over the place, from Camcorders to cheap Sony Digital shooters....

Most folks just aren't going to get the true connection...

Your current lens selections are selling for less than $500...

The materials are fine, the finish is better than most plastic lens designs most folks
are subjected to every day... nothing wrong with your current design and if you desided
to put in Zeis glass, thats fine too... Sony does it all day long and at a much cheaper
price....

I'd love to have one of the new Zeis lenses but I'm afraid its just not going to happen at
the prices that are being suggested...

Sep 25, 2006 at 01:16 AM
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p.6 #17 · new Zeiss T/S lens


I agree the prices are ridiculous. The Canon 45mm TSE while not perfect is an excellent lens. It makes you realize what a steal it is at the price offered, PLUS you get auto aperture metering and focus confirmation (on Canon bodies). The Canon 90mm TSE is reputedly better, and the Canon 24mm TSE is quite a good lens, albeit flawed. The biggest problem with the Canon 45mm TSE is chromatic aberration when shifted, but I wouldn't pay 4 times the price for a Zeiss lens even if it had zero CA.

Sep 25, 2006 at 02:35 AM
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p.6 #18 · new Zeiss T/S lens


stefan - different question ... we are trying to figure out why Zeiss doesn't build EOS mount lenses ... the are releasing the ZF and ZS (m42) but why not an EOS mount. yes you can adapt both a ZF and ZS to Canon but with canon's market share, it seems odd they are not doing this. can you shed any light? does canon require a licensing fee for their mount ?

Sep 25, 2006 at 04:01 PM
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p.6 #19 · new Zeiss T/S lens


jonboring wrote:
stefan - different question ... we are trying to figure out why Zeiss doesn't build EOS mount lenses ... the are releasing the ZF and ZS (m42) but why not an EOS mount. yes you can adapt both a ZF and ZS to Canon but with canon's market share, it seems odd they are not doing this. can you shed any light? does canon require a licensing fee for their mount ?



I emailed CZ about this in Dec. 2005 and this is the response I go:

"Thank you for your suggestions and sorry for the late reply.
We know that many photographers would appreciate Carl Zeiss lenses on their
Canon EOS cameras. But without collaboration from Canon, we cannot realize
this idea."

Sep 25, 2006 at 09:08 PM
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p.6 #20 · new Zeiss T/S lens


I emailed Zeiss a few months ago and asked them if they were going to create a ts lens. I am happy to see they have gotten in bed with one of the most innovative ts lens manufacturers. Congrats Zeiss. Where do I sign up?

Oct 01, 2006 at 02:07 AM
Stefan Steib
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p.6 #21 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Update from Photokina:

after having talked now for 6 days in a row,my throat is sore but my mind is happy. I hereby officially announce that Carl Zeiss is worldwide distributing our lenses starting from "first half of 2007".
I can only state what Chuck Westphal from Canon USA said when he saw what is possible with our lenses: "We are very happy to see what customers can achieve with our camera bodies"....... .this was after he saw a food shot from a D1S mark II that I demoed.
(and was estimated as medium format back quality by everybody who saw it.)
We have already a bulk of direct orders and all the photographers who saw the lenses wanted to have them immediately, especially after they saw the results.
The 4.0 IF 40mm though the most expensive lens is probably the most wanted.
I say thank you to anybody who visited us on the booth, expect to see some reviews and reports on several well known sources soon.


Edited by Stefan Steib on Oct 03, 2006 at 03:28 AM GMT

Oct 02, 2006 at 08:24 PM
carstenw
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p.6 #22 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Prices?

Oct 02, 2006 at 08:25 PM
Stefan Steib
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p.6 #23 · new Zeiss T/S lens


as said before ~ Hasselblad VSystem lenses of according make.

Oct 02, 2006 at 08:29 PM
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p.6 #24 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Since you are already taking orders, I presume the prices are set? In that case, why the indirect answer? Real prices would be much more helpful.

Oct 02, 2006 at 08:59 PM
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p.6 #25 · new Zeiss T/S lens


Stefan Steib wrote:
as said before ~ Hasselblad VSystem lenses of according make.


Yes, yes, But what does that mean? Since you were taking direct orders for the lenses you must know an actual pricce. Why won't you just tell us the prices?


Oct 02, 2006 at 09:20 PM




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