A distant complicity (NUDE)

FM Forum Rules
Rules: One new topic per day

FM Forums \| People Photography \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 3 … 5 6 7 … 10 11 end

Archive 2006 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #1 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka,
That is an interesting idea. I don't think she looks like a mother either, which I did find strange. She has this Farrah Fawcett thing going on. I don't think your disturbance is due to your perception of what motherhood is. Would it be more normal if she were wrinkly and wearing glasses? I think your disturbance with the image is that you see these two people as separate individuals (i.e. not mother and son) and thus find it strange that they, for whatever reason, are naked together.

In any case I think that this is what I find strange about the image. They don't look related and the boy is kind of old to be seen naked with someone who appears to be a stranger.

Sep 03, 2006 at 04:01 AM

tony404
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #2 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka wrote:
tony404 wrote:
Well art should create emotion it did that.I also think we as Americans have to get over this the human body is dirty and automatically means something sexual. Thats very disturbing

I think you are overgeneralizing on both counts.

Just because art generates emotions doesn't mean that all things that generate emotions are art. There are many ways to generate emotions that are not art. Not saying this is one of those things, but I think that an analysis of what this is (if that's even appropriate in this forum) needs to extend beyond its ability to generate emotions.

Also, I don't think that the people who find the image discomforting are only those who equate nudity with sexuality. I find the image a little troubling because the model appears very different from the way I perceive motherhood. In that sense, perhaps a challenge to my perceptions is positive.

Honestly, I am a little disturbed that I am disturbed by the images, and they have prompted some thinking and discussion between myself and my fiancé, which is also good.

In the end, we found that the images in the series were not to our taste, regardless of whether the models are nude or clothed. In arriving at that conclusion, it was clear that the experiences we bring the the interpretation of the series are very different from those of the participants. It's our perception of what motherhood means, and not any perceived nudity/sexuality connection, that leads us to feel the way we do. And I don't think we're alone.

Arka C.

Just because you dont like it doesnt mean Im overgeneralizing at all. You had discussions about this piece which is art and you had a emotional response. Your not making sense.Unless she looks like the virgin mary then she is a not a good model for a mother to you?

Sep 03, 2006 at 04:14 AM

57suzi
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #3 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Wow, it's a good thing Tom's not ruling the world.

Sep 03, 2006 at 05:26 AM

lordarka
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #4 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

SWMorales wrote:
Just because youre not alone doesn't mean youre not wrong.

! I wasn't aware that there was a right and wrong when it came to taste and comfort levels! I never claimed to be in the right, though I presume you think there is a right position in this increasingly pointless debate...

What's wrong with a little ambiguity?

Arka C.

Sep 03, 2006 at 06:36 AM

lordarka
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #5 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

tony404 wrote:
Just because you dont like it doesnt mean Im overgeneralizing at all. You had discussions about this piece which is art and you had a emotional response. Your not making sense.Unless she looks like the virgin mary then she is a not a good model for a mother to you?

You're right; my overgeneralizations have nothing to do with my not liking the picture. I already admitted I didn't, but that doesn't mean that your comments were not too general. The two observations are totally independent of each other.

Once again, you construe my response (clearly an emotional one) as proof that the work is art, or that it somehow works as art. In your latest post, you assume a priori that the image is art, and that my emotional response to it validates it as good art. Unlike you, I have not assumed that. Further, I am saying that the mere fact that a work evokes an emotional response is not sufficient to quaiify it as art.

And secondly, you state:

I also think we as Americans have to get over this the human body is dirty and automatically means something sexual. Thats very disturbing

I infer from these assertions that you believe the people who have expressed discomfort with the images as presented do so because they perceive things as you describe above. I am saying that this is not the case. I am uncomfortable with the images for entirely different reasons.

The mere fact that I am uncomfortable with the series has no bearing on the character of your remarks as being too general. I still think they are, and are not of much service to those of us who don't fit into the categories you've established.

Unless she looks like the virgin mary then she is a not a good model for a mother to you?

This highlights your blind (almost stupid) hostility to any contrary view. I am not Christian, and the Virgin Mary is not my frame of reference. I am a son however, and my own experiences of my mother inform my perspective of what the relationship represents. Not having a mother like this, or even having witnessed such a relationship among my peers or loved ones, has made it harder for me to accept these images as a reasonable depiction of motherhood. That's not a bad or good thing.. it's just a fact. I would venture to say that many people have not had such a relationship of motherhood similar to the one displayed in these photographs. That can be as much a source for discomfort and dislike than your theory of 'American perceptions of nudity.'

Arka C.

Edited by lordarka on Sep 03, 2006 at 03:06 PM GMT

Sep 03, 2006 at 06:46 AM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #6 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

This debate is not pointless. It is interesting.

Sep 03, 2006 at 06:47 AM

lordarka
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #7 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

zync wrote:
This debate is not pointless. It is interesting.

It becomes pointless when we fail to recognize that people may be content to differ on how they feel about work. I don't appreciate the Eurocentric photographic intelligentsia telling me how, as a prude, nudity-fearing American, my take on the photo is the wrong one.

The essence of this debate is the ambiguity of it... obviously there are no right answers, but it's interesting to track how each of us arrives at our varying conclusions. That journey alone has been interesting for me, and I thank fb101 for forcing me to take it.

Arka C.

Sep 03, 2006 at 06:55 AM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #8 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Exactly. That has not been lost. In 17 pages only a handful of posts have been of that sort.

Sep 03, 2006 at 06:59 AM

fb101
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #9 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Third morning, the discussion sis still there...Something is happening. Lots of things have been said that interest me. Great debate, also a source onf inspiration for futher work. One thing, I'd like to comment :

In any case I think that this is what I find strange about the image. They don't look related and the boy is kind of old to be seen naked with someone who appears to be a stranger.

No one seems to have taken the title in consideration : " A distant complicity". I think I gave this title because this is not the classical pose of love between a mother and a child where the tender mother watches over her defenless cub. Here she is : garded, defiant, elsewhere. She doesn't really communicate with him, although she clearly protects him. As for him, he obsiously is already a self standing person who has choosen to seek refuge in her mother arm. Here lies the contradiction of this image. We are talking about two free willed individuals.

The important thing is that this almost young man has choosen to go back to her mother's limb. He expects some benefit from that. He looks to the right where the danger seems to come from (right= future, things that are coming), she looks to the left, to the past. He looks down to practical things, she looks up to ideal things. They agree on the essential : love and protection, but disagree as to the analysis of the danger and where it might come from. That's why I have talked about "distant complicty".

And the nakedness in all that ? Why is it there ? Just because it is a powerfull indication on how essential is what it is that they do. Nakedess is here to say " we're not kidding, we are dealing with important matters here that shouldn't be hidden by artefacts". That is what nakedness often does : it underlines the basicness of things.

There comes a time when children part from their parents, a difficult process on both sides, which both parties often tend to soften with love and concern for each other. Still, the parting takes place.... I like to think that this is an illustration of that process.

Edited by fb101 on Sep 03, 2006 at 09:48 AM GMT

Sep 03, 2006 at 07:20 AM

tayo
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #10 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Monsieur fb101, you sound like an artist.

Sep 03, 2006 at 07:34 AM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #11 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Interesting. I think we all got way caught up in the "nudity" too much to actually look into the elements within the picture. It could also be because of the way your other work influences our perception of this image.

I really can relate to your last paragraph as that's what I'm currently in the middle of. I haven't left yet, but I've been gone a lot more than I used to be. I'm in that transition where my parents are becoming more like friends than parents. I feel like I don't belong in my own home anymore.

tayo wrote:
Monsieur fb101, you sound like an artist.

He also sounds like one of my peers in the art dept when the prof asks us what we were trying to do in the image when the real answer is: I wanted to make a pretty picture

Of course I'm not actually trying to insinuate that he just made it all up.

Sep 03, 2006 at 07:34 AM

fb101
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #12 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Zync, that's very clairvoyant, and I might actually be in the class-room with you...

Sep 03, 2006 at 07:42 AM

lordarka
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #13 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fb101 wrote:
But when I see the picture, I let my emotions flow and when I don't screw the title (and I don't think I did, here) it generally reflects what they were. You can therefore say when considering MY creative process, that title giving is the closest thing to "intention".

Now THAT is interesting... I'm not sure if changes my mind on the image, but I can certainly better appreciate your conveyance of intent; by putting it in the title, it feels a lot more relevant, and imparted through the work rather than in a series of explanatory posts on a web forum.

Thanks for the insight into your thought process.

Arka C.

Sep 03, 2006 at 07:59 AM

divemed06
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #14 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

NC_Glider wrote:
I think you should be reported to child protective services. I really don't like the young boy and older nude woman photos. Bad taste!

Good idea. Contact you're local CPS and report him...than grab your six pack of Budweiser and sit on the porch with cousin Gus and Wilma-May and discuss life's ethical issues.

Lovely images! Great lighting!

Sep 03, 2006 at 12:14 PM

nhfirefighter
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #15 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka wrote:
I agree with you completely, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Ever wonder why that is? If a father and a daughter in the same sort of situation would likely evoke mostly negative responses with respect to appropriateness, why do so many consider a similar concept with a mother and son to be so beautiful?

I wonder...

Arka C.

Because men are evil and women are nurturing. Because men only have one thing on their minds. Because men are rapists and women are victims. Men are strong and women are weak. Because of any one of a thousand absurdities we all hear growing up. Watch the nightly news or pick up a newspaper...when is the last time you saw a report about a woman raping a boy? That's why flipping the image would evoke such response. In my opinion anyway.

Sep 03, 2006 at 01:27 PM

fb101
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #16 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Anyone that relies on the news to form an opinion is in danger of crossing a reality distorsion field....

Sep 03, 2006 at 02:41 PM

OTWPIX
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #17 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

This photograph is brilliant, emotional and thought provoking on both sides of the "issue" of the nudity, age and pose. The fact that some people are defending it and others are condeming it, some are politicizing it and even more are taking national sides regarding it goes to show how powerful of an image it is.

Personally I hope that someday I could create and have the guts to post an image that offers this much controversy and discussion.

Kudo Francois.

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:50 PM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #18 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fb101 wrote:
Zync, that's very clairvoyant, and I might actually be in the class-room with you...

One thing is sure though, I never know before shooting it what it is that I shoot. But when I see the picture, I let my emotions flow and when I don't screw the title (and I don't think I did, here) it generally reflects what they were. You can therefore say when considering MY creative process, that title giving is the closest thing to "intention".

That's similar to the way I work actually. I don't generally have much of an idea until I read the picture myself! I mean of course sometimes I set up preconceived ideas, but generally there are some hidden in there anyway. It doesn't only apply to photography either.

Sep 03, 2006 at 04:29 PM

Jim Rickards
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #19 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Francois, I just finished enjoying your galleries with Sophie. So many times I just look at and enjoy the picture you post for the day. When one looks at the entire gallery, your work shines through in a special way. Your artistry in the field of lighting is shown each day, but your breadth in posing shows up better when I look at your entire gallery. Keep up the great work. Don' t be fussed by the comments you get from across the Atlantic. The values and experiences are different there. There is no need to attempt to explain or conform. Your thread has become an emotional issue for some, and I gave up following it after some 9 pages. I prefer to follow the discussions on a photographic, not moral issues level.

Thanks for posting.

Sep 04, 2006 at 12:45 AM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #20 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Jim, you talk as if you're not from "across the Atlantic" yourself, but you're in New York you know

Sep 04, 2006 at 02:01 AM

nissanboy
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #21 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

This is hilarious.

Mike

Sep 04, 2006 at 02:32 AM

fb101
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #22 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Jim,

Never through this thread have I had a sensation of despair or rage, or any negative feeling. There has been quite a number of considerations on the picture itself and that was good. Then, there has been a fascinating conversation about the moral implications and that has been even better.... At one or two points I felt some hate (probably from weak persons) but then, hey, what's the point of making pictures for the sake of emotions if you rule those out ?

Sep 04, 2006 at 05:38 AM

nicklk
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #23 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I know there is a huge barrier between what that is of porn and art....but the age of the child she is posing with makes the sequence of photos almost distasteful....

Madonna and the Christ child, Virgin and Child with the Young St. John the Baptis, etc....all these depict images of the mother with their infant child, not their 6-7 year old young boy......

Sep 04, 2006 at 08:03 AM

zync
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #24 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

nicklk wrote:
I know there is a huge barrier between what that is of porn and art....but the age of the child she is posing with makes the sequence of photos almost distasteful....

Madonna and the Christ child, Virgin and Child with the Young St. John the Baptis, etc....all these depict images of the mother with their infant child, not their 6-7 year old young boy......

Actually in many Maéstas the Christ child is of debatable age. He is represented as a child but appears much older, especially when depicted giving a blessing.

Sep 04, 2006 at 08:10 AM

Deeje
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #25 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

If no other lesson can be learned here, at least we know that photography is an art form that, like all art, is subject to interpretation. I am a person that thoroughly enjoys erotic art, even pornography to a degree. I can certainly recognize it and there is absolutely nothing, even remotely, erotic or pornographic about this photograph. People have complained about the age of the child. Ask any parent this: Is there any point at which your child ceases to be your child? If they're worth the title of "parent" they will say no. They will defend their children to the end, even if they have to do it without clothing. To me, the more appropriate concern would be for those who have an issue with this picture.

Sep 04, 2006 at 09:53 AM


FM Forums \| People Photography \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 5 6 7 … 10 11 end