A distant complicity (NUDE)

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Archive 2006 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

apexjapan
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p.5 #1 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Just an opinion, a voice of different experience.

I was raised in a nudist commune for a year or two as a child myself, and what I learned from that experience was: 1) clothes keep you from getting sunburnt, 2) they are nice when it is cold as well, and

3) Once you get used to it, you stop immediately assigning "sex" to nudity.

I am by no means advocating everybody becomes nudists, but I can say that in *my* experience, nudity does not mean sex, and it really doesn't matter the age. And when you start including the world here (and unfortunately, too many people posting from america/canada in here still don't really understand what that means), then something that may be shocking to you is commonplace (and not in a bad way) elsewhere.

Btw, the nudist commune I was raised in was in America - I would also like to say to the europeans and other nationals posting here, please don't paint America with one big, broad brush. It's a big country with a range of culture and values.

Cheers

Sep 02, 2006 at 09:54 AM

fb101
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p.5 #2 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I like your contribution, Paul.

I am a good connaiseur of America (about 60 trips there ranging from a week to three months) , as much a s a foreigner can be, and was once a lover of that country. At one point, I even considered the possibility to settle there (and had the opportunity to do so). Then came a period where the whole concept of America beacame darkened in my mind, a little bit like the darkness of Sauron invades hte whole world in "the lord of the rings". I am starting to see hope again and though I haven't set foot in America since 2000, I am considering to go back.

But even through that dark period, I have never made the mistake to consider "America" as one unified block. There are a lot of enlighted people and groups there. A lot of currents, a lot good will and a lot of moderate people. And that, across all ethnic and religious groups....

I'm sure that one day, people will see the Bush era and what it represented as they now look upon the MacCarthy period.

Sep 02, 2006 at 10:06 AM

fcobb
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p.5 #3 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Despite the content of the image, and my personal feelings, the very fact that it has sparked 13+ pages of debate, praise, condemnation, means the creator did his job as a photographer. Bring about emotion. For that, fb101 Good Job!

Sep 02, 2006 at 02:55 PM

lordarka
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p.5 #4 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fcobb wrote:
Despite the content of the image, and my personal feelings, the very fact that it has sparked 13+ pages of debate, praise, condemnation, means the creator did his job as a photographer. Bring about emotion. For that, fb101 Good Job!

I always wonder why people say these sorts of things.... If I were to take an artful picture of a Cross, Star of David, Crescent, or some other important religious symbol floating in a toilet, it would likely generate much more controversy, but few would assume that the it was the 'artistry of the images' that prompted such a debate.

Getting people to respond and react randomly is not the job of an artist. An artist should be able to get people to react in a meaningful and constructive way; for make people think in ways they had not thought before, or to help appreciate a point of view. I'm not saying that fb101 is not doing that, but to attribute all of the reactions on these pages solely to the artistic merit of the images is disingenuous. If the image featured two nude women in the same context, I doubt we would see so much controversy.

In the photographer's defense, I have friends that do live like this, and they are originally European (French and Polish). We all bring different cultural perspectives to these images, and I am loath to say that any of them are wrong. I myself have not only been raised in Midwestern America, but in a South Asian household; even though I'm much more comfortable with nudity than my parents, I find myself somewhat discomforted in seeing this. Even ten years in SoCal, and frequent visits to local nudist beaches, have not shaken me of such notions, to my dismay.

I think it's silly to attribute such perspectives to the rise of the Republicans or any other such thing... Most people are generally conservative enough about nudity to legitimately find such an offbeat expression of the mother-son relationship to be odd, at the very least.

Arka C.

Edited by lordarka on Sep 03, 2006 at 12:40 AM GMT

Sep 02, 2006 at 04:38 PM

Larry55
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p.5 #5 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Interesting thread indeed. Upon first viewing the image, it didn't even come to my mind that there might be a moral issue. I was intent, as always, at looking at the technical expertise (lighting, posing, interpretation) that makes your images sing.

The image is not as good, in my mind, as others I've seen. Of course, in all honesty, I felt that some of the previous images could not have been better.

I appreciate your craft, and I appreciate your quiet, sensible demeanor.

I always, always look forward to your posts.

Sep 02, 2006 at 04:39 PM

fcobb
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p.5 #6 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka wrote:
fcobb wrote:
Despite the content of the image, and my personal feelings, the very fact that it has sparked 13+ pages of debate, praise, condemnation, means the creator did his job as a photographer. Bring about emotion. For that, fb101 Good Job!

I always wonder why people say these sorts of things.... If I were to take an artful picture of a Cross, Star of David, Crescent, or some other important religious symbol floating in a toilet, it would likely generate much more controversy, but few would assume that the it was the 'artistry of the images' that prompted such a debate.

I think the difference is that fb101 had NO intentions of being controversial with the content of his image. It was a response brought about by that same diversity of the cultures brought to bear in the forum that caused the controversy. Your example would be hard pressed to make me believe it wasn't an orchestrated attempt to create controversy between those that believe and those who don't. I believe the response was not sought by fb101. Yours, on the other hand, would be intentional.

Thats what make his image a good one as I stated and yours would be seen for what it is

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:05 PM

lordarka
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p.5 #7 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fcobb wrote:
lordarka wrote:
fcobb wrote:
Despite the content of the image, and my personal feelings, the very fact that it has sparked 13+ pages of debate, praise, condemnation, means the creator did his job as a photographer. Bring about emotion. For that, fb101 Good Job!

I always wonder why people say these sorts of things.... If I were to take an artful picture of a Cross, Star of David, Crescent, or some other important religious symbol floating in a toilet, it would likely generate much more controversy, but few would assume that the it was the 'artistry of the images' that prompted such a debate.

I think the difference is that fb101 had NO intentions of being controversial with the content of his image. It was a response brought about by that same diversity of the cultures brought to bear in the forum that caused the controversy. Your example would be hard pressed to make me believe it wasn't an orchestrated attempt to create controversy between those that believe and those who don't. I believe the response was not sought by fb101. Yours, on the other hand, would be intentional.

Thats what make his image a good one as I stated and yours would be seen for what it is

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:15 PM

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p.5 #8 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I haven't read thru this entire thread yet but just wanted to post my initial impressions of the images before I delve into what I'm sure is an interesting string of opinions.

I think these images are inpsirational! The mother and son obviously have a wonderful and comfortable raport and the images capture this quite, fantastically well. I applaud the photographer for making these wonderful images.

I'm sure there's an argument raging about the appropriatenes of the images. I'll just say that I find nothing in the least objectional or pornographic about them. What's more natural than the human body? We all have one. And what's more natural than a mother and child interacting an enjoying eachothers' company. And heck, there's nothing at all sexual about these images anyway. Nude does/should not equate to sexual.

Cheers!

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:25 PM

zync
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p.5 #9 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

mhayes5254 wrote:
Those who are troubled by these pictures apparently have not been to any clothing optional beaches. They do exist in the US although they are not common. In parts of Europe they are of course common. There are people there of all ages and their heads do not explode at the sight of naked people.

Those who have not been to one will find it hard to imagine but the atmosphere is not overtly sexual. I realize it is not a perfect analogy for these pictures but may be easier for people to think about.

They must be higher per capita here then (like stripclubs too actually) because there are at least three in my county and plans to build more in surrounding areas.

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:30 PM

zync
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p.5 #10 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka,

The issue of Republicans wasn't raised—at least by me—as a way of saying we're becoming more conservative about nudity; it was to state that we can't change things because we have a majority that is conservative about such issues be they Democran or Republicrat.

And yes, a big thanks is owed Francois for this thread, no matter what caused such debate!

Edited by zync on Sep 02, 2006 at 12:40 PM GMT

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:39 PM

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p.5 #11 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

So, you think the intent of the artist is more important than the actual content?

THAT is agreat question ! Concpetual art vs emotional art. I, myself am clearly on the side of emotianl art so I state loud and clear that my intentions are not to be considered when debating this picture. What counts is how its received, what feelings or thoughts it fosters.

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:39 PM

fcobb
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p.5 #12 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

lordarka wrote:
fcobb wrote:
lordarka wrote:
fcobb wrote:
Despite the content of the image, and my personal feelings, the very fact that it has sparked 13+ pages of debate, praise, condemnation, means the creator did his job as a photographer. Bring about emotion. For that, fb101 Good Job!

I always wonder why people say these sorts of things.... If I were to take an artful picture of a Cross, Star of David, Crescent, or some other important religious symbol floating in a toilet, it would likely generate much more controversy, but few would assume that the it was the 'artistry of the images' that prompted such a debate.

I think the difference is that fb101 had NO intentions of being controversial with the content of his image. It was a response brought about by that same diversity of the cultures brought to bear in the forum that caused the controversy. Your example would be hard pressed to make me believe it wasn't an orchestrated attempt to create controversy between those that believe and those who don't. I believe the response was not sought by fb101. Yours, on the other hand, would be intentional.

Thats what make his image a good one as I stated and yours would be seen for what it is

So, you think the intent of the artist is more important than the actual content? What if I posted a similary controversial subject without having the intent to create controversy. If I generate a lot of unfocused controversy nonetheless, am I now an artist, rather than a mere provocateur?

How do you measure a person's intent? Does it even matter? I'm not convinced that it does, unless the intent is readily manifest in the image, and not in after-post commentary. I'm not convinced that the intent that you see as exonerating is clearly manifest in the images presented.

Arka C.

Firstly, I never said the content was artsy nor do I believe the intent is manifested in the image. Moreover, it suggests a lifestyle that is accepted in many parts of the world which the OP probably didn't consider as controversial in his part of the world. So yes, If you posted and image wihout obvious controversial intent being manifested therein, it too would be a good photo. BUT I also hold that it can do so without being so called art.
But I bet you can be a damn good provacature

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:48 PM

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p.5 #13 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I think you should be reported to child protective services. I really don't like the young boy and older nude woman photos. Bad taste!

Sep 02, 2006 at 07:06 PM

Alex Paul
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p.5 #14 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Scott: I am just going to say that this should in no way be viewed as child porn.... If it is arousing someone then they need help.... Looks like a work of art to me....I would say if the law is as you state, then there are a lot of museums in violation..... I think this photo could be easily defended for what it is in a court of law..... The other thing to remember is not all countries are governed by U.S. laws, nor should they be. We do not rule the world..... Do you and your wife honestly view this as pornographic? Some people even in the U S are nudists.... Is that banned?? Nope..(Of course it probably isn't art either

..... As long as it doesn't involve sexual acts. Would you like me to compile a list of nudist resorts in the U.S. for you

Is a mother breast feeding her infant pornographic too? Where do you draw the line?? (Off my soapbox).....Take care.....Alex

Edited by Alex Paul on Sep 02, 2006 at 02:40 PM GMT

Sep 02, 2006 at 07:13 PM

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p.5 #15 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

NC_Glider wrote:
I think you should be reported to child protective services. I really don't like the young boy and older nude woman photos. Bad taste!

Thank you for this useful addition to the thread ! Clearly you've read the responses FB101 has made in coming to such a judgement.

Sep 02, 2006 at 07:34 PM

fb101
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p.5 #16 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Well, It seems that NC_GLider thinks I should be reported because he doesn't like the picture. I was wondering who was the real master of the world. Now I know

Sep 02, 2006 at 09:13 PM

Casie
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p.5 #17 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Bottom line, France is different from the U.S. and I think people need to respect other people's opinions, even if they differ from your own.

On another note, the lighting in your picture is great. However, I will have to agree with Pirate, the child is a bit old for the shot. Nude photos of mothers and their children are beautiful, artistically, when the child is younger.

Sep 03, 2006 at 12:29 AM

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p.5 #18 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

This thread is a beautiful example of why I lurk rather than participate here much.

fb101: I'm not a fan of the photo posted. Is this because I'm an American? Nope (at least I don't think so). Is it because I'm a Republican? Uh-uh (I'm an Independant, actually). Is it because my Mother didn't walk around nude when I was a child? I doubt it.

I just don't like it. It does nothing for me. It's not something I would spend money on and it certainly doesn't attract my interest. That's my opinion.

Do I think it is innapropriate? Not really. Is it porn? That's an emphatic "NO!" Is it child abuse? Negative.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Unfortunately, opinions are like a$$ho{@$, everyone has one. Even more unfortunate, I've often noticed that people such as those claiming that you need to be locked up and/or seek psychiatric help seem to be the most willing to share such opinions.

Kudos for trying something different but while I have enjoyed many of your photos, like I said earlier, this one just doesn't do it for me.

And to answer the other gentleman's question of "would it work with a father and his daughter ?" Right or wrong, you wouldn't last a day before the media and the cops were knocking on your door. Of course, I'm referring to the US. We're a little funny like that.

Sep 03, 2006 at 12:45 AM

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p.5 #19 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I think it's kind of strange that they would want to take that photo, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
Also It's kind of funny that the people who are posting about the child being "scarred for life" and such are actually the ones so deeply scarred that they don't even realize it.

Sep 03, 2006 at 01:50 AM

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p.5 #20 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

my $.02 its inappropriate. Where do you draw the line on art and say, porn? When a child is involved, as in this case. If a child is involved and you even have to wonder, then the answer is no. It seems that you can throw out a very strange,odd,controversial pic and call it art these days. F-that There are many ways to depict the love between a mother and child without going sicko. This is right there with wacko - jacko thinking! I think its too bad.

Sep 03, 2006 at 02:12 AM

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p.5 #21 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Well art should create emotion it did that.I also think we as Americans have to get over this the human body is dirty and automatically means something sexual. Thats very disturbing

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:07 AM

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p.5 #22 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

tony404 wrote:
Well art should create emotion it did that.I also think we as Americans have to get over this the human body is dirty and automatically means something sexual. Thats very disturbing

Seriously, it's starting to worry me a little bit reading some of the responses. I mean, I don't consider myself to be a terribly freeminded person with regard to this sort of thing, but I don't have a problem with it at all. I even sent a link to my mother (who, based on the age thread, is actually fairly close to, if a little older than, the FM demographic) and her reaction was that it was most certainly a strongly emotional picture and didn't see anything wrong with it... and she's much more 'conservative' with regard to her personal conduct and what not (and she's a preschool teacher...) Everything seems to me to indicate that the problem lies more with the people who see something sexual in everything.

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:15 AM

lordarka
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p.5 #23 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

nhfirefighter wrote:
And to answer the other gentleman's question of "would it work with a father and his daughter ?" Right or wrong, you wouldn't last a day before the media and the cops were knocking on your door. Of course, I'm referring to the US. We're a little funny like that.

I agree with you completely, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Ever wonder why that is? If a father and a daughter in the same sort of situation would likely evoke mostly negative responses with respect to appropriateness, why do so many consider a similar concept with a mother and son to be so beautiful?

I wonder...

Arka C.

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:25 AM

lordarka
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p.5 #24 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

tony404 wrote:
Well art should create emotion it did that.I also think we as Americans have to get over this the human body is dirty and automatically means something sexual. Thats very disturbing

I think you are overgeneralizing on both counts.

Just because art generates emotions doesn't mean that all things that generate emotions are art. There are many ways to generate emotions that are not art. Not saying this is one of those things, but I think that an analysis of what this is (if that's even appropriate in this forum) needs to extend beyond its ability to generate emotions.

Also, I don't think that the people who find the image discomforting are only those who equate nudity with sexuality. I find the image a little troubling because the model appears very different from the way I perceive motherhood. In that sense, perhaps a challenge to my perceptions is positive.

Honestly, I am a little disturbed that I am disturbed by the images, and they have prompted some thinking and discussion between myself and my fiancé, which is also good.

In the end, we found that the images in the series were not to our taste, regardless of whether the models are nude or clothed. In arriving at that conclusion, it was clear that the experiences we bring the the interpretation of the series are very different from those of the participants. It's our perception of what motherhood means, and not any perceived nudity/sexuality connection, that leads us to feel the way we do. And I don't think we're alone.

Arka C.

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:36 AM

SWMorales
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p.5 #25 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Just because youre not alone doesn't mean youre not wrong.

Sep 03, 2006 at 03:55 AM


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