A distant complicity (NUDE)

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Archive 2006 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

jamesf99
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p.4 #1 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

jwstudios wrote:
The whole discussion here makes me laugh!
It is a great image and only distorted minds see something in it that is not there !
I think America is a wonderful country with great people and some of the best photographers, but being a European, I often wonder how you guys let your minds be poisoned by minority groups that want to dictate you what you can see, think and do

We have no choice. After the 2000 election, our "supreme court" put the inmates in control of the asylum.

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:28 PM

ShadowWalker
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p.4 #2 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Jim,

I'll be the first to say that I agree with you completely. Well said.

Francois, as always I love, and appreciate, your fine work. Thanks for having the courage and conviction to post your amazing photos. One correction though, the darkest, most tragic, day in American history was not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, it was actually January 20, 2001.

best.

jeff

jamesf99 wrote:
willyusa wrote:
I have to say...this is why I miss Europe so much.... You can't do much in the US without fearing being charged with something... Personally, I live with fear that one day, something I say or do will be misinterpreted and harm will come to my family in the process of "ensuring the well being" of my kids...

Sadly, you're right to be careful. We live in extreme times and are no longer protected or governed by people that care about the constitution, rights, privacy, reasonableness, or reality for that matter. Our country has been taken over by extremists and some very bad people IMO. There are no boundries for them as far as who they will persecute or prosecute. It's no longer a joke to say "they might be listening" because the shltbags in DC really ARE listening......

It's like we have taken paranoia to the extreme.... I looked at the whole series of Francois' pictures and saw nothing but great art.... most of the dirt is really in the mind of the people that see or imagine those type of "thoughts" in everyone else... Hell, I come from Spain and I should know...The Inquisition did some damage, and it was all "for the sake of the people, purity, sacredness, etc. etc."....

It is true that a photolab would probably call cops if you sent the film for development, or sent orders for prints, etc. but you see, they would not care that the photos don't show the kid totally naked, they would think something of the likes of "well, the kid was being abused because he was being asked to strip, in front of adults, etc. etc. etc. " nevermind the woman in the pic is his Mom...

And by the way, I also miss France... the French Riviera is definitely a place where you can relax...away from the inquisition, the thought police and the repressed...

In case anyone is wondering, I would be the first one to put a bullet in the brain of anyone that did anything to a child (I have three daughters), but by God, the last thing we need is mental dictatorships...

Francois, keep it up...you, fortunately still live in a place of openmindedness...

Just as the with the inquistion then, the "justification" for repressive behavior today is often false. The irrational "fear of everything" we experience today is not really about protecting kids from predators (in this case), citizens from terrorists, or civilians from criminals, it's about power and control. The church wanted it then and numerous groups (and the criminals in DC but that's a differnt discussion) want it today. Every authoritarian group or government (Nazis, Stalin, George Bush and republicans, ooops, I shouldn't speak the truth) has used the same tactics since the beginning of history. The way to get power and maintain it, is by instilling fear in people and stiffling anyone that doesn't agree.

In the case of "pornography", the bar is set so low that it is now accepted that if even the stupidest right wing fundamentalist christian is offended by a picture (and what doesn't offend these people), that picture and the photographer must be considered evil and a crime has been committed. I can only believe that these idiots crying "foul" at everything are most likely latent predators or sex offenders themselves. It's just like homophobics that can't accept the truth in themselves.. Sure, there are bad people out there, but these individuals (men and women) will accuse others of wrong doing and see crimes where none exists.

They do not speak for me, nor will they ever......

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:32 PM

Allen42
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p.4 #3 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fizzy wrote:
... there are dirty old men and pedophiles and child abusers in Europe, too. Plenty of them. Just because we Americans tend to be more discreet about sexual matters, a little more loud-mouthed about things we find offensive, and (unfortunately) maybe not well enough educated about artistic intentions, doesn't mean that Europeans get a free pass to the high road.

Amen! I'll vote: I don't view this picture as pornography, but I also don't view it as appropriate, especially in the context of the rest his work. If the child were quite a bit younger, no problem. I had no problems taking a bath with my infant and toddler daughters, but now that they are older, we teach them that the body has "private parts", and opposite sexes should respect the privacy of others. This is my own belief system and morality guiding me here, which is much more a result of my upbringing than my government or citizenship. I'm not going to get into a generalization of various culture's morality levels because every culture that I've been exposed to has flaws, and my basis for judgement is my own personal belief system.

Here's the funny thing: below a certain age, everyone generally agrees it's ok. (However, this gets legally sticky in the US, too.) Then there's that taboo period that starts somewhere after toddler and goes through teen, then, at 18, all protective practices are removed. Most of that is technical legalities involving age of consent. Once a "child" turns 18 (at least in the US), they are magically endowed with all of the rights, responsibilities, and freedoms of adulthood. Except drinking (

).

So, just for fun, let's say this boy is 6. He can speak and reason. Ask him "Boy, do you mind if I take pictures of you with no clothes on and put them in a place where everyone in the world can see them?" Ask someone with only 12 years more "life experience" the same question, and offer him (usually her) some money for doing so, and it's perfectly legal.

Is either scenario more immoral than the other?

Finally, elaborating on what I touched on above: regardless of my own feelings about nudity, etc., this photo is *forever* and someday, my child may very much resent that took this liberty. I ask my kids about family snapshots before I put their faces on the web, and would never dream of putting anything online that I could imagine the *real* pedo's out there using for their personal pleasure.

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:45 PM

jamesf99
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p.4 #4 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

MSB1 wrote

The intimacy and nudity of the mother and a child this age is perverted and gross.
If the child was a baby, then maybe ok. But for a male child of his age to be phtoographed nude with his female mother who is also nude in an intimate portrait is way over the line.

The photos have an obvious sexual tension to them, and they are out of line.
It has nothing to do with a protective and loving mother.

The technical aspects of the photograph are excellent. The content should put someone in jail.

While it wasn't my favorite picture, I would suggest that you avoid all "nude" pictures.

People like you scare me. From your post, I have no doubt that you're a severely repressed indiviual with extremely bigoted views and phobias. Wherever you live (I'm pretty darn sure it's a "red state") I hope children can be kept away from you and your kind.

You're one sick dude......

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:45 PM

elliotkramer
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p.4 #5 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

the darkest, most tragic, day in American history was not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, it was actually January 20, 2001.

Actually, that date may go down in history as the darkest day in the history of the world, not just the US. I wish more people had the guts to speak out.

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:54 PM

Allen42
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p.4 #6 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

jamesf99 wrote:
People like you scare me. From your post, I have no doubt that you're a severely repressed indiviual with extremely bigoted views and phobias. Wherever you live (I'm pretty darn sure it's a "red[strike, change to blue] state"), ...

You're one sick dude......

Funny, I was thinking nearly the same thing about 4 posts ago....

Sep 01, 2006 at 08:57 PM

dennysb
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p.4 #7 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I sometimes follow fb101 work. I find his work interesting and moving sometimes and in other instances I don’t. The photo posted here is not one I particular like. That means nothing since my likes or preferences are just that – my preferences.

Am I unconformable with the picture? Perhaps a little, but that does not mean there is something wrong with it. In fact I would guess Fred Miranda, in his continuous desire to maintain the forums operating within the norms allowed for running the business, would have done something (lock) about it by now.

With that said, this thread have show me more than a picture:

I heard reasonable people making points about why they like or they do not like the picture. That is a good thing since there is not reason to believe that if I person likes the photo, they must be perverts, OR if they feel uneasy with the photo, they are Right-wing nuts and puritans.

I have also heard a lot of irate people in both sides, saying some nasty stuff. Most of the times generalizing; ALL you Europeans with your dirty minds OR All you American Imperialist Puritans. I got to tell you is so bad, it’s funny.

I find this type of conversation unproductive to the issue, which, I think is an important issue about art and different people/society’s expectations.

Anyway, I guess that is the beauty of the WEB, an open forum where anybody can go into “Drive-Rage” mode and not get hurt, at least physically.

By the way in case someone wants to come after me, here is some info

I am 1/3 Italian – 1/3 Venezuelan – 1/3 Chinese. I have family living in the U.S, France, Venezuela and Australia. I grew up in Venezuela where everyone wears swimming suits that are only slightly bigger than the one in Brazil, I was happy THEN.

I now live in U.S Wisconsin, where I would be mortified if my son ever wore a swimming like the ones I wore back then, and I am still happy.

Different places - different people, yet this has not stop me from meeting terrific and kind people. Whether there are from a RED, BLUE or a Purple State or even France.

By the way - Happy Labor Day!

Sep 01, 2006 at 10:29 PM

sheilar
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p.4 #8 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I find it annoying that people have to continually stereotype Americans and Europeans. Since I'm from the US I automatically voted for Bush, am a bible thumper and have serious hang ups with nudity? HELL NO Come on! There are extremist in every country.

Hey I even breastfed my children past the age of two and I enjoying seeing others breastfeed.

Let's be careful about what this discussion is really about.

btw, the photo is technically perfect. I'm not crazy about their emotion being displayed, but I understand the message. The photo is well done.

Sep 01, 2006 at 10:31 PM

theDude78
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p.4 #9 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

jamesf99 in 2008.

You have my vote and support.

Sep 01, 2006 at 11:46 PM

zync
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p.4 #10 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Johny

PS. Keep up the good work francois, later today I am in Paris and will enjoy it as always!

The problem is that that section is the majority—a stupid majority. We are born from Puritans. No matter how much we want to change we're too far along. I keep hoping for some sort of revolution, but it's a long time coming, and now it seems that we're in a regression from the current administration. Plus we have the FCC which has completely overstepped its bounds since its inception.

I had hoped that once my generation had grown they'd be smart enough to see past things like this, and while we have progressed greatly, there are still archaic thinkers out there who have never grown out from under the influence of their parents. Hell, even in art school I somehow found Republicans...staunch Republicans.

I only fault Republicans for their inability to remove religion from politics (the reason this country exists). Obviously a middle ground is best for economic reasons, but I digress. This image would be taken lightly if the kid were three years younger. Strange isn't it? I must admit that at first I thought it strange, only because I wouldn't pose with my mother like that, but then I found it beautiful. On Pirate's behalf, he wasn't trying to be an ass, he was trying to inform you. Also, I believe some government agencies will try to exert their power over other countries when they deem something as child porn.

Sep 02, 2006 at 03:51 AM

zync
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p.4 #11 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

fb101 wrote:
Hello everyone...Sorry to be so late in answering, but I posted this pix just before going to sleep and wake up just now....

I am not so innocent as to think that this picture would not create a debate, but I didn't expect it to be so intense with so many participants.

FACTS : Stephie is not my wife but that is her 6 years old child to be seen here. Stephie - no one who knows my work will be surpised by that - has no qualms about nudity. She is proud of what she does and shows all the pictures made by her photographs, on a regular basis, to her two child ( 6 and 3) who freely comment them. She says : "l will not make a picture that I wouldn't like to show to my kids". In their home, like most people, they live dressed but are often in the nude. In the morning the two kids run naked in her bed where she is naked too. There is nothing more natural and, though I've never witnessed it, probably nothing more beautiful.

INTENTIONS : Obviously, in my mind, this pix as well as the whole serie is about the different facts of motherly love, nothing else. Nudity may have sexual connotations to some, but in my mind it also have connotations of transparency, healthynes, open-mindedness. Nothing fosters love, true love, pure love as well as nakedness.

COMMENTS : what strikes me is that the discussion is not as much about the photo that about yourselves as Americans. I found this conversation, by and large, of a very high and candid level. Who are we ? Are we right to be what we are? These are sane questions asked by sane people. I am very proud that this picture was the starting point of this discussion. I believe that it is what good art should do. On that angle -the ability of a work of art to foster a debate - this is probably the best work I've done....

Thanks to all for telling me that

Well put! In America, we're in the closet on so many issues and this is one. This is weird in America simply because it is not how we grew up. That said, I think the kid is a little old for the shot, but as it is I see nothing wrong, and nothing sexual with it.

I know many Americans would disagree, and that's their prerogative. The only people who piss me off are those who tell me I shouldn't see this and who try to get images like this destroyed. That's the problem. I don't see why people can't leave things alone. Why can't a parent control what their own children watch instead of complaining that there are bad things on TV and the internet? They're lazy. It's far easier to complain than to do actual work.

Sep 02, 2006 at 04:08 AM

zync
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p.4 #12 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

shootThis wrote:
Comments: I know what you mean. due to 9-11 we as Americans are not sure who, or what we are. Half of us are terrified, half are mad, and some are something in between, but in all cases it's all new to us, and we're trying to find our way, and find out who we are. We demand our freedom, but want our protection. And those two collide in many aspects, on many different 'fronts'.

If I am in the least bit terrified it is of the government and not terrorism. I never was afraid of terrorism and never will be. People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people. I'm not sure if that's simply from V for Vendetta (I think it might pre-date it), but it is entirely relevant.

Sep 02, 2006 at 04:12 AM

zync
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p.4 #13 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

malum wrote:

I personally try to hide my personal parts from my daughter, and maybe that is wrong.

I find it terribly sad that you think you need to do this.

It's not only that he thinks he needs to do this. Society rules. If people found out that he did that he'd probably be considered a pervert and CPS might even take his children away. It's sad, but true.

Sep 02, 2006 at 04:21 AM

zync
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p.4 #14 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

elliotkramer wrote:
the darkest, most tragic, day in American history was not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, it was actually January 20, 2001.

Actually, that date may go down in history as the darkest day in the history of the world, not just the US. I wish more people had the guts to speak out.

Seriously. I nearly get physically sick when I see a "W'04" sticker on people's cars. I just want to beat some sense into them. I swear soon I'm going to start taking them off of cars and I'm a car nut who hates it when people put flyers on my car. I mean they won the stupid election and they just have to leave those stickers on to rub their stupidity in our faces? There are not many views that I cannot understand in this world. I even understand how terrorists think (not that I agree with them of course) but I don't think I could ever understand how someone would vote for Bush. I wasn't even an avid debate watcher but I clearly caught him lying over three times in a single debate—and I only watched 15 minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if he orchestrated 9/11 (there's plenty of evidence to it actually).

Sorry I posted so many, I just figured in a thread that had grown to 11 pages someone would have interrupted me by now. Also, I second Jim '08!

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:14 AM

DMBrower
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p.4 #15 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I must admit that when I first viewed this image, I was a bit disturbed by it. Based on what I have known for the duration of my life, this child is too old to be photographed this way. Now, this is not to say that I didn't understand it or that I was offended by it; it simply raised some questions in my mind that have, for the most part, been discussed fairly maturely. Until this point, I have yet to really think about this topic and would like to thank everyone for giving myself and others a view into your lives and various cultures. At this point, I can honestly say that I look at the image and truly understand it. It still does not fit my personal taste, but I respect the image and the photographer who took it, along with the opinions and beliefs of all who have posted. I truly hope that this discussion can be continued for the benefit of all who take the time to truly read it; not just view the picture and comment on it immediately after. I would truly like to thank you Francois for this experience.

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:20 AM

maitlaj
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p.4 #16 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I'm going to jump on the wagon with those who think that this image is not appropriate. I am a big fan of your work normally... but for me, this crosses a line.

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:38 AM

Nowhere Man
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p.4 #17 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I have to honestly say it struck me as a little disturbing, given the child is to old be breast feeding. Also, I don't know any mom's that would be willing to take pics like this with their children. But, I do realize that is only true for the mom's I know in my society (california, USA). In some societies in the world, I realize this would be deemed completely normal behavor and interaction between a mother and her child.

While I can appreciate shock value and artist freedom of expression to the fullest, I view this piece as walking a fine line between 'art' and 'inappropriately odd'.

Sep 02, 2006 at 05:53 AM

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p.4 #18 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Those who are troubled by these pictures apparently have not been to any clothing optional beaches. They do exist in the US although they are not common. In parts of Europe they are of course common. There are people there of all ages and their heads do not explode at the sight of naked people.

Those who have not been to one will find it hard to imagine but the atmosphere is not overtly sexual. I realize it is not a perfect analogy for these pictures but may be easier for people to think about.

Sep 02, 2006 at 06:23 AM

papageno
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p.4 #19 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I just don't think these pictures work well; I don't think they read as mother love (How many pages ago was that stated

?)

If we can get away from worrying about current mores and focus on the images.....

As the shooter, how would you rate your effort here?

Sep 02, 2006 at 06:26 AM

lordarka
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p.4 #20 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

MJDNYC wrote:

There is no law in any state in the US that forbids a mother and son to be nude or to be photographed in a non-lewd way.

I just had a long conversation with my father who is a lawyer. YES HE'S SURE.

How would your father, as an attorney, define 'lewd?' Would most other attorneys agree with his definition?

Let's not forget who's been appointing judges lately....

Not that it really matters, considering the model and photographer are French, and are eubject to their laws rather than ours.

Not casting judgment on the pics... but as another interesting hypothetical... I wonder if the responses would be the same if we had a nude father with their 5 year old daughter in the same offbeat style...

Arka C.

Sep 02, 2006 at 06:37 AM

finster1018
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p.4 #21 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

I'm willing to wager that this image (series of images) will be just as controversial as Jill Greenberg's crying children series, that's for sure. Creating this much rumbling is exactly what this forum needs, isn't that what art should do? fb101 bravo for posting images that reside in a new frontier. Very creative and nicely executed. Personally not a big fan of the image but I love the questions it has raised and where the discussions have gone with this.

Sep 02, 2006 at 06:44 AM

fb101
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p.4 #22 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

Another wake up morning for me here in Paris and still the surprise to see the debate going on....

There's a new twist to the discussion over yesterday's : isn't the child too old to be photographed like this? I think not for two sets of reasons :

1) This is the way they live at Stephie's home. It is one of those homes where clothes are optional (in the morning before washing time). That's how they like to live, it is neither illegal nor immoral.

2) On the creative level, I believe this is the ideal age. Obviously the child is no longer a baby. He has reach a certain level of autonomy (he's only turned six, though) and yet he is still like a bay, protected like one, abandonned in her mother's arm like one. Could this picture be made if he had been 8 or 12 or 18 ? Last night I discussed that point with my own family (we are a family of 4 children) and they agreed that there was no problem untill such age as the child was no longer sexually innocent, untill puberty. I would believe that this is the obvious point.

And yet, much later, when you are sixty and that your own mother dies on you, you feel so alone, so unprotected that, again, you feel you would like to be naked against her true self (naked ?) to be shielded against the wild world. If that had been possible, her being 85 or so and naked, and you, sixty and slowly going geriartric, wouldn't that be a great photo ? One of these days, I should make such a picture.

Sep 02, 2006 at 06:57 AM

pmacino
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p.4 #23 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

finster1018 wrote:
I'm willing to wager that this image (series of images) will be just as controversial as Jill Greenberg's crying children series, that's for sure. Creating this much rumbling is exactly what this forum needs, isn't that what art should do? fb101 bravo for posting images that reside in a new frontier. Very creative and nicely executed. Personally not a big fan of the image but I love the questions it has raised and where the discussions have gone with this.

That's exactly what I was thinking while reading through this thread. I'm happy to find this post in the thread. It's a great example of an artist invoking emotion.

http://www.manipulator.com

I have to say the original image is very powerful, like it or not.

Sep 02, 2006 at 07:03 AM

Matt Lomeli
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p.4 #24 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

ummmmm.....no

Sep 02, 2006 at 07:44 AM

jamesf99
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p.4 #25 · A distant complicity (NUDE)

jamesf99 wrote:
People like you scare me. From your post, I have no doubt that you're a severely repressed indiviual with extremely bigoted views and phobias. Wherever you live (I'm pretty darn sure it's a "red state"), ...

You're one sick dude......

Allen42 wrote:

"Funny, I was thinking nearly the same thing about 4 posts ago....

Actually, I'm not sure what your point is here so if you could restate it that would clear it up.

As for my original post, I'll just confirm what I said previously and remove any doubt the poster I responded to is from TN unequivocally a "red state". What a surprise!

DIGRESSION - Here's why replublicans love "Red States" from our own Karl Rove - Principal architect of American divisiveness and general hate monger.

"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans - unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing.".

Yup, there's no doubt why the republicans love them red states, Un-, or under-, educated people don't question their "leaders".

Sep 02, 2006 at 09:40 AM


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