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Archive 2006 · The Canon Frustration

  
 
Larry Carter
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · The Canon Frustration


Please, hear me. I'm not trying to rock the boat on Canon. I'm a loyal Canon user.

I've been a bit frustrated working with bayered images here lately and it has gotten to a point that this has led me to pure frustration. I've always been a fan of the single pixel sensor for color rather than the present 3 array of sensors to collect the color data which is blurred to remove moire and put together to form an image. Even though to a normal eye this process is more than sufficent and people are totally happy. Maybe I'm a weirdo, but it seems that there is something missing out of these bayering sensor images that I can't put my finger on. Anways, I'm getting totally unhappy with them. I was just hoping by me commenting on this that it might spark some interests in the other digital photographers here (maybe by some miracle and I'm sure Canon spys here) that we can convey to Canon that we want more than the bayering sensor. I've been playing around with the small Sigma Foven RAWs and even though they are considered small images and crummy cameras, they seem to capture way more information than my 1Ds. I spent hours with them yesterday interpolating them and was totally surprised with the results.

It seems to me as long as Canon dominates the market with the bayering sensor and people keep buying into it, I don't think we will see any changes for a very long time, which is even more frustrating. I just hope you guys would open your eyes and demand from Canon a true 1 to 1 resolution camera.

Thanks for listening to me gripe
Larry Carter



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:03 AM
DavidP
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · The Canon Frustration


How well does the Foveon handle ISO3200?


Jun 24, 2006 at 11:15 AM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · The Canon Frustration


DavidP wrote:
How well does the Foveon handle ISO3200?


Hi David, this is not a point about Foveon or the Sigma's poor handling of high ISO. I hope I made myself clear in showning my distaste for the bayering sensor in general.



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:18 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · The Canon Frustration


I find a constant degree of 'flatness' in my RAW digital images, from all my various dslr's and with all my lenses, but on the whole I think after some PP they give superb, balanced and vivid images (if oversaturated by default)

I don't really get your concerns, although I am sure they are valid.

I'm primarily using the 5D for professional industrial work where tolerances are small and it is replacing 6x7 and 5x4 gear - I have had nothing but praise from the clients since I went entirely digital

David



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:29 AM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · The Canon Frustration


dhphoto wrote:
I find a constant degree of 'flatness' in my RAW digital images, from all my various dslr's and with all my lenses, but on the whole I think after some PP they give superb, balanced and vivid images (if oversaturated by default)

I don't really get your concerns, although I am sure they are valid.

I'm primarily using the 5D for professional industrial work where tolerances are small and it is replacing 6x7 and 5x4 gear - I have had nothing but praise from the clients since I went entirely digital

David


I'm sure your customers are very happy and generally most people are with the results. I think with your trained eye you too can see there can be much more improvements. It is kind of like a pianist playing on a good upright and his desire for a Steinway Grand. To my feelings and to my eye there is too much missing in the images after being processed from a blur to relative sharpness. In other words I feel the images are over processed and some intangible factor that doesn't really work well with the art of photography. Please this is just my subjective feelings. It almost makes me want to go back to film.... almost. I'm staying with digital because I feel there is hope if more people desire true 1 to 1 capture.



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:38 AM
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · The Canon Frustration


You should be inspired by rumours appeared on Juza site today.. One of "relaible" sources mention "Foveon-like sensor" in 1Ds3


Jun 24, 2006 at 11:43 AM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · The Canon Frustration


vyanush wrote:
You should be inspired by rumours appeared on Juza site today.. One of "relaible" sources mention "Foveon-like sensor" in 1Ds3


Oh! If this was true, I would be in pure photography heaven.



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:44 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · The Canon Frustration


It would take a lot for Canon to change their sensor technology. They make their CMOS on their own and Foveon was made by another company for Sigma (don't remember the name of the company at this moment). If Canon were to buy the Foveon or similar technology, it would cut the margin of profit by quite a bit and that is not something in their future plan, I think. If they develop their own, they have to deal with quite a bit of patent issues and it would be awhile to get over that. It may come in the future....


Jun 24, 2006 at 11:50 AM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · The Canon Frustration


AGeoJO wrote:
It would take a lot for Canon to change their sensor technology. They make their CMOS on their own and Foveon was made by another company for Sigma (don't remember the name of the company at this moment). If Canon were to buy the Foveon or similar technology, it would cut the margin of profit by quite a bit and that is not something in their future plan, I think. If they develop their own, they have to deal with quite a bit of patent issues and it would be awhile to get over that. It may come in the
...Show more

Well if you look at the patent office, several years ago, Canon already had a patent for their own 1 to 1 color sensor.

Edited by Larry Carter on Jun 24, 2006 at 11:58 AM GMT



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:57 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · The Canon Frustration


Larry Carter wrote:
It almost makes me want to go back to film


For me, I would never, never ever go back to film under any circumstances, I stopped offering it as an option ages ago.

I don't really agree with you about digital, although I entirely respect your opinion I wonder if perhaps where you are coming from is to make digital look LIKE film, which of course it can't. It's a different thing

To me, film was just a medium and not a very good or efficient one, prone to unforseen problems and with no assurances in terms of exposure, colour or results.

I can't honesly tell the difference between a carefully exposed and reproduced digital file and film, and I think many couldn't.

David



Jun 24, 2006 at 11:58 AM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · The Canon Frustration


dhphoto wrote:
For me, I would never, never ever go back to film under any circumstances, I stopped offering it as an option ages ago.

I don't really agree with you about digital, although I entirely respect your opinion I wonder if perhaps where you are coming from is to make digital look LIKE film, which of course it can't. It's a different thing

To me, film was just a medium and not a very good or efficient one, prone to unforseen problems and with no assurances in terms of exposure, colour or results.

I can't honesly tell the difference between a carefully exposed and
...Show more

Hi David, I understand where you are coming from. But for me it is not whether I want film like images, but the truely terrible idea of resolving the morie issues with blurring the image which means actual resolution loss. For example; My 1Ds has an 11meg sensor, in reality it has the same resolving power as a true 1 to 1 sensor of about 5.5megs. So i'm actually getting an over processed blurred image. It does fairly well but not to the point of my satisfaction and farthers my creative low.



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:03 PM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · The Canon Frustration


Be honest.... our images come out like soft images taken with a cheap lens because it AAs up to 4 pixles from the detail. Then we resort to punishing the image with the so called sharpening tool, which in fact does not sharpen anything but changes the color and constrasts around the edges and noise.


Jun 24, 2006 at 12:07 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · The Canon Frustration


Larry Carter wrote:
Well if you look at the patent office, several years ago, Canon already had a patent for their own 1 to 1 color sensor.

I didn't know that. Then it may come in the near future. But are we not opening a can of worms here? What I am trying to say is, the current sensor design is challenging the best of Canon lens lineup. If they improve their sensor technology before too long and come up with 1 to 1 sensors and the resolution is high up there, all those lenses in their lineup would be obsolete overnight, kind of. There were talks before the current 1DsMkII was introduced that it would be a 22 MP. Well, that didn't materialize and they came up with only 16.3 MP to prevent that from happening so soon.

Edited by AGeoJO on Jun 24, 2006 at 09:16 AM GMT



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:11 PM
DavidP
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · The Canon Frustration


Get the 1Ds-2, downsize it to around 4 megapixels (50% downsize in each linear direction), problem solved.


Jun 24, 2006 at 12:12 PM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · The Canon Frustration


DavidP wrote:
Get the 1Ds-2, downsize it to around 4 megapixels (50% downsize in each linear direction), problem solved.


David.... this is my point. We are not getting true resolution. Love ya man.



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:14 PM
Larry Carter
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · The Canon Frustration


AGeoJO wrote:
I didn't know that. Then it may come in the near future. But are we not opening a can of worms here? What I am trying to say is, the current sensor design is challenging the best of Canon lens lineup. If they improve their sensor technology before too long and come up with 1 to 1 sensors and the resolution is high up there, all those lenses in their lineup would be obsolete overnight, kind of. There were talks before the current 1DsMkII was introduced that it would be a 22 MP. Well, that didn't materialize and they came
...Show more

They are speculating that the 22MP is a foveon like sensor... but who knows until it comes out.



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:15 PM
EOS20
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · The Canon Frustration


It would be great to see something really revolutionary from Canon this year, But in reality Canon would proberlly just add a larger LCD and a print button to the 1Ds2 and add a new badge on the front and call it a new camera!

But heres to hoping!



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:21 PM
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · The Canon Frustration


Its my understanding that the sensor really could have a much higher angular resolution limit. The Bayer interpolation reduces this.

In CCD astrophotography what is done (often) is 3, 4 seperate images are taken with a red, green, blue filter.

How about a shutter that has all the filters aligned, so that as it passes the sensor it sequentially exposes it to 3 different lights.?

I suppose the bottleneck would be getting the information off the chip fast enough, possibly working for slower shutter speeds but not for higher ones.

Also obviously fast moving objects would be a problem, because there would be 3 differing images, and that would just be no good.

However, If you could get the information off the chip fast enough to be ready for the next color in the sequence ... I might be on to something..

So ... Im just daydreaming here....




Jun 24, 2006 at 12:22 PM
RikWriter
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · The Canon Frustration


Why "Canon frustration?" Does Nikon do it differently? Does Olympus? Pentax?


Jun 24, 2006 at 12:29 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · The Canon Frustration


I'll admit I simply don't get any of this.

I have never experienced any moire with any of my dslrs (10D, 1DII, 20D, 5D, 350D) in ANY shot I have ever taken, probably just good luck

I see controllable colour, sharpness when I need it, decent DR (the equal of tranny film at least) and the absence of processing variations and the associated problems with wet process.

The minutiae of the digital sensor doesn't interest me except that enlargements seem to be easier, sharper and better.

I'm sad for you if you find all this disappointing, but I just don't, it rekindled my lifelong love for photography like film never could have

David



Jun 24, 2006 at 12:31 PM
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