Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

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Archive 2006 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

marbrink
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p.3 #1 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

bathman,
Unfortunately you're right about that. But the head office and manufacturing is still in Sweden I think. And at heart it's a swedish company.

Mar 19, 2006 at 10:30 AM

Lotusm50
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p.3 #2 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Actually, I believe it's all been moved to Denmark.

Mar 19, 2006 at 10:10 PM

marbrink
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p.3 #3 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

No, but Imacon moved to Hasselblad though..

Mar 19, 2006 at 11:25 PM

Doug Dolde
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p.3 #4 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Gailbraith just did another house cleaning this past week. He posted a big warning to people in the Medium Format Forum. Many posters have stopped posing there altogether since.

I think his ass is just too tight. If people have to make their posts in fear of being edited or deleted they are going to loose all the interesting pro posters. It just ain't no fun to read anymore.

Mar 19, 2006 at 11:47 PM

foto-z
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p.3 #5 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

what was his complaint?

Mar 19, 2006 at 11:56 PM

Doug Dolde
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p.3 #6 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Oh just the usual complaints about name calling, insulting people, off topic comments, etc. No sense of humor at all.

I think he doesn't realize that what makes his forum successful is the people who post there. Without them it's just a blank page.

See this thread

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10389&hl=

Edited by Doug Dolde on Mar 20, 2006 at 12:32 PM GMT

Mar 20, 2006 at 12:04 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #7 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I would have been thrown out by long then

Mar 20, 2006 at 12:16 AM

geoffreyg
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p.3 #8 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Well, someone has to represent the "budget" end of the equation, so here goes:

I shot for years with medium format film, Rollei gear, both SLR and TLR. Scanning made great prints. With the digital stuff, GUy and Chuck's help lead to the DMR and satisfaction in the quality of the gear, lenses, and cost investment. Oh yes, lest I forget, the ability to quickly print lovely color prints up to 16x20. Wow. All this for under $10k, and yes, the Canon gear sits on the shelf, except for the snaps when it is great.

But for deep tones, and thoughtful composition, the medium format gear still is sweet. So I'm raising my hand for the budget approach of B/W film and good scanners (lmacon 343?). Its easy, slow to be truthful, but heck, scan one image a roll, and watch your quality control go way up.

Beats placing $20k bets and hoping for the right answer. Well, sort of. Maybe its just another option. But film has its place, and gee, those used lenses are pretty cheap these days.

Geoff

Mar 20, 2006 at 02:24 AM

mark1958
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p.3 #9 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I am very excited about trying the 6x9 Rollei. I am waiting for Chuck to get back to send me the stuff. The ability to do the tilts and shifting is going to be alot of fun. It will not replace Canon for wildlife shooting though

Mar 20, 2006 at 03:52 AM

Geert Koning
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p.3 #10 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Erwin Puts wrote an interesting article on the effect of sensor sizes on IQ and the needed lens quality.

You guys might like to read that.

Mar 22, 2006 at 10:49 AM

Lotusm50
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p.3 #11 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

The Putz article Geert is referring to is found at: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c023.html

Here is one of the handful times I find myself agreeing with Mr. Putz. And it is exactly his point in this article that provides the reason why Canon won't go beyond 16mp in their DSLR's (at least n the near future). The lenses can't handle it. He even seems to suggest that the 12.8mp of the 5D exceeds the lenses capability. He indicated that "most" lenses are designed to meet a target resolution of 50 lp/mm.

Confirming reasoning enough in my mind, why we need Contax back with its Zeiss lenses that are not designed beyond "most" lenses. (just thought I would toss that in -- I always like to return to my pet peeve now and again). ;-)

Mar 22, 2006 at 11:54 AM

Geert Koning
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p.3 #12 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Sorry, I forgot to give the link

Mar 22, 2006 at 12:06 PM

ajmichael
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p.3 #13 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

This is a very interesting discussion. One back I haven't seen mentioned much, if at all, is the P30. Does anyone have any thoughts about the pros and cons of P30 vs P25? Ideally on Hasselblad V with Zeiss, but anything relevant would be appreciated!

Andy

Mar 29, 2006 at 11:53 AM

gogopix
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p.3 #14 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

BTW. On the Contax statements by Reichman I think were subjective. He compared general Contax lenses (maybe not the suberb 35mm) against very wide 35mm Schneider. Not sure what head to head would do with the P25 vs P45. I think at P25 Contax/Hasselblad glass as good as Schneider without the LCC problem (processing will destroy some of detail and sharpness advantage.)

The P45 may show differences of some Zeiss glass vis a vis HR and Digitars, but I have not seen the direct evidence, certainly not against 35mm Schneider. I hope to do this test myself with the ALPA and Schneider /Rodenstock lenses.on P25.

Then I will rent P45 to compare.

Victor

Mar 29, 2006 at 05:55 PM

ericevans
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p.3 #15 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Guy if you are going to do this you need a good dealer to work with that will come to you and spend the time it takes to get you what you need . http://www.globalimaginginc.com/ I have dealt with Global and they bring the gear to your location and show you what it is all about . They also arranged a demo system for me for a week so I could have some time to really work the gear .

What ever you do don't sell al your other gear . You may find your self needing a faster shooting camera as all the backs are slow compared to what you have been shooting with . I don't believe for a minute that you will be happy with the wides available for the camera systems so you may want to look at a view camera or a Alpa/Cambo system as well .

I am happy with the Aptus 22 /Mamiya 645afdII setup except for the wide lenses but I am living through it . Images look like they are shot on film which is why I went with Leaf . The software is nice and you can pick it up quickly but you will need a powerful computer . I have found that working the files in photoshop gets about the same results as the Leaf software .

Mar 29, 2006 at 06:39 PM

gogopix
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p.3 #16 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I find it interesting that people suggest going H1/2 over Contax based on supply. The supply of H1/2 was less than Contax recently!

Also, for a lot of the 'used' mavens, there is a lot more Contax 645 used than H1/H2.

Many of the hassey H people went for the V series lens adapter. I wonder why?

Now, want to talk difference? the hassey AF seems a lot better to some. But then I don't use AF so I do not care. But this should be the main advantage. How you say, Contax supply is a 'red herring' (also Swedish I think!)

Victor

Mar 29, 2006 at 07:51 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #17 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

As John pointed out, here is another solution form the swiss alps which will for sure soon conquer the whole planet and become worldleader

http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/e_html/e_m.htm

Edited by bathman on Mar 29, 2006 at 09:11 PM GMT

Mar 29, 2006 at 08:54 PM

gerov
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p.3 #18 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

turn page

Mar 29, 2006 at 09:43 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #19 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Guy Mancuso wrote:
Hmm be nice if it took my leica glass instead of Nikons but that does look interesting.That looks like a few dollars

Dollar: yes
few: no

Mar 29, 2006 at 10:00 PM

Lotusm50
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p.3 #20 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

The Sinar M is interesting, and it has had a very long period of development. Like most things Sinar, it is not cheap. I understand that the camera, lens module, and prism together costs as much as $10,000. However, for those of us sitting on a stash of Contax 645 (and possibly even Contax N lenses), this camera could be the second coming of Contax. Ziess is already makeing AF lenses for it. If you look carefully, this new Sinar lens mount is VERY similar to the Contax 645 mount (except the electrical contacts are on the top of the mount instead of the bottom as on the C645). It seems to me (and Sinar would be very smart to do this) that it would be very easy for Sinar to make a lens module that makes full use of the Contax 645 lenses. (and maybe another that uses the Contax N lenses since they are basically the same mount, just the sizes are different, for a 35mm sensor like they have for Nikon F lenses). This would create an instant market for this camera -- certainly more so than it would be for the camera itself -- and once they get the C645 users to buy the body, they can get them into new Zeiss Sinar lenses over time.

The point made about there being alot of Contax 645 camera out, more so than Hassy H1/H2's there is a good one -- accordingly there are alot more Contax 645 users. Users looking for a place to take their lenses now that development of the Contax body is dead (regrettably). This is real opportunity for Sinar. Let's see if they take it.

Mar 29, 2006 at 10:50 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #21 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotus, the industry prefers to sell new gear, I dont believe in the comeback of a dead system. if, they adapt more lensmounts, they will make canon and the fuji-hb.

Sinar needs to sell the product and they will look on growing markets

Mar 29, 2006 at 11:06 PM

bigreen505
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p.3 #22 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

ericevans -- Would you be willing to tell us who you are working with at Global Imaging? My limited experience with them has not been so rosy. Our area rep is more used car salesman than anything else and likes to push what ever he gets the biggest commission on. The Leaf rep, however, is a top tier individual, and Guy, I think he would be your rep as well.

Mar 29, 2006 at 11:14 PM

Lotusm50
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p.3 #23 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

bathman wrote:
Lotus, the industry prefers to sell new gear, I dont believe in the comeback of a dead system. if, they adapt more lensmounts, they will make canon and the fuji-hb.

Sinar needs to sell the product and they will look on growing markets

But I think you missed my point. Sinar would be selling cameras -- alot more cameras by making it adaptable to an existing lens mount. By your reasoning, why bother to make it adaptable to all those old Hassy lenses? Thre is a reason why they made it adpatable to other lenses besides their own new lens mounts. That is to bring buyers to them , who might be more willing to buy into the camera if they can use their existing lenses. The same is true for all those C645 users. Sinar, by the way, does not make lenses. They make most of their money making cameras. Further, how do you define a "dead" system? Since it is still actively used by many the C645 is far from dead (and as suggested by other posts, there might actually be more Contax 645 users out there than Hassy H1/H2 users).

Further what is a "growing" market. Is the MF market "growing", apparently from all accounts, hardly. So, Sinar is not actually looking to a growing market. Rather, they are looking to provide a better solution to make the most out of an existing and stagnant market. Why can't they also tap into another market niche -- a market niche that is wholly unserved (that is one where there is no competition), that is the market demand for products from owners of Contax 645 lenses. And they can tap that market very inexpensively with only minimal investment.

Further most manufacturers rely on the fact that tere is a pool of users out there that will buy their camera because they already have lenses for it -- ask Canon and Nikon. By adapting lens mounts (which is in part the objective behind the modular system), Sinar can tap into demand from users with compatable lenses, demand that it would not otherwise have. Sinar sells more bodies by doing so. Sinar says that more lens modules are coming. They intend to make adaptable to more lenses for this very reason. I am further suggesting that since Contax 645 users have no other new alternatives, demand from these users might be proportionally larger than for other lens mounts. IMHO, it would be a very good business decision -- Sinar gets to sell a lot more new gear by doing so (sales that it would not otherwise make).

Mar 30, 2006 at 12:23 AM

wil_ret
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p.3 #24 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Staying with the subject.
A new killer camera would be a 645 version of the Fuji GX680III.
I would buy that in a flash,especially with a whole range of newly designed lenses.
Fuji is already making the lenses for the Hasselblad Hi and H2.
There are a lot of shooters out there still using the GX680 with a Digi 645 back,however find the current lens line up to limiting ,as they were designed for the 6x8 format.
Also a 645 version would be a smaller camera as well!
I loved shooting with the 680 !
Cheers,
Willem.

Mar 30, 2006 at 04:23 AM

dklepacki
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p.3 #25 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I met with some of the Sinar reps in NYC late last year. While they do make an adapter to take MF backs in C645 mount, they are not keen on making a module for the C645 Zeiss lenses. Rather, they are working with Zeiss to deliver a set of four AF lenses with "Sinar standards". Some of the MTF charts are already posted on the Zeiss site, and they are impressive. Also, they said that the real breakthrough was in designing an AF 120 Makro that exceeds the performance of the manual C645 lens, which is quite a feat.

On the other hand, I was able to actually test drive the Sinar M with their eMotion22 back and the new Zeiss 80/2 planar for that camera. One thing for sure, the Sinar M is no travel camera. I am not even sure I would use it at weddings, as the size would scare away all but the most inebriated guests. The camera is huge and heavy. Heck, the battery alone probably weighs more than the 1DsII.....but the resulting image quality is stunning (if you like Zeiss look over Fuji). It is not a camera that competes with something like the Alps or Cambo (or Linhof ala Reichmann) for ultra-wide shooting, but if you are looking for that Zeiss look at the higher MF back densities, this may be the camera for you.

Mar 30, 2006 at 05:04 AM


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