Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

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Archive 2006 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotusm50
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p.18 #1 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

So both the 5D and 1Ds mkII suck. OK, I'll buy that.

So when do we get a product that does it right? Where are the real alternatives?? Is the only possible alternative a $30,000 digital back? Is anyone else even trying?

May 24, 2006 at 02:11 PM

shirozina
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p.18 #2 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotusm50 wrote:
So both the 5D and 1Ds mkII suck. OK, I'll buy that.
On the contrary - both are very good cameras capable of images of a very high order. The 5D in particular is asthonishingly good in relation to it's price. Without actualy owning and using both DSLR's and med format backs it's quite easy to get things out of perspective - I own a 5D and a Sinar 22mp back - the Sinar has 2x the MP but it is no where near 2x the image quality - it needs big enlargments to show the difference and most (if not all) of the time it's lost on the printed page where a lot of commercial work ends up. Sure with big prints on the wall veiwed at close distances we can see differences - just like the differences between 22mp and 5x4 scanned or printed film. I was looking at some large prints shot on 10x8 he other day - compared to that the latest med format backs suck - you can buy that if you want.

May 24, 2006 at 03:03 PM

Duncan Staples
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p.18 #3 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Andi - personal experience. I own 50/80/120/150/250 CFT* lenses and often rent 50/80/150 and 50-110 zoom lenses on the HC for H1D. The HC lenses are sharper edge to edge and appear to have been designed more for a digital due to center and edge sharpness issues in addition to better contrast.

Duncan

May 24, 2006 at 03:40 PM

carstenw
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p.18 #4 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Duncan, what about the 180 CF T*? It is meant to be one of the best of the old series, I thought.

May 24, 2006 at 03:59 PM

Duncan Staples
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p.18 #5 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I don't have the 180CFT* - sorry.

Duncan

May 24, 2006 at 04:09 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.18 #6 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

shirozina
A 22mp camera has not twice the resolution of a 11mp camera, you would need to have some insane 44mp to double the resolution from the 5D. Of course you still would need lenses which do not limit the sensor resolution as Andy pointed out in his post.

Duncan I would like to see that, not that I would not believe you but just what I saw from the V lenses and the p30 was just so good I would not like to give up its qualities for 5% more sharpness. My experience is still quite limited on this

May 24, 2006 at 04:23 PM

ajmichael
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p.18 #7 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

bathman wrote:
... what I saw from the V lenses and the p30 was just so good I would not like to give up its qualities for 5% more sharpness ...

I did a shoot at the weekend with a borrowed P30 on a 553ELX with the 80mm CFT* against my 1Ds2 with a 50mm f1.4. If I'd had more time I'd have tried some other lens combinations. The main issue I had was the P30 not triggering from the 553ELX, which thanks to the Phase One forum I now know was a dirty PAL pin. Unfortunately this wasted quite a lot of time and was very frustrating as the back only triggered one time in three or four shots. I haven't had the chance to really look through the P30 images, but what I've seen so far is pretty impressive.

Andy

May 25, 2006 at 10:18 AM

shirozina
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p.18 #8 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Andi - 22mp is 2x the image information than 11mp - this may or may not be the same as resolution.

May 25, 2006 at 10:36 AM

EZepeda
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p.18 #9 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

ajmichael wrote:

The main issue I had was the P30 not triggering from the 553ELX, which thanks to the Phase One forum I now know was a dirty PAL pin. Unfortunately this wasted quite a lot of time and was very frustrating as the back only triggered one time in three or four shots. I haven't had the chance to really look through the P30 images, but what I've seen so far is pretty impressive.

Andy

That PAL pin is a PITA. I guess there's an optical sensor in the Phase back, that won't "see" the pin if it's dirty...alcohol and a q-tip seem to work. The other main issue with the older Hassy bodies is the sync cable. Phase charges 50+ bucks for this little sub-mini to PC 6" cord, because your 20K+ back is useless without it, but it doesn't have that long tip that works best with the CFT* lenses. I do get occasional sync errors which is either due to the PAL pin or the sync cord. The cord isn't bad because I plopped my 50 bucks down for another spare and still get the same error. I'm thinking of have Paramount custom make me a long tip to sub-mini cord which they will do for all of 25 bucks. It's not a massive problem, just annoying and somewhat to be expected when pairing a twenty year old body with some of the newest in capture technology.

May 25, 2006 at 11:04 AM

Kit Laughlin
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p.18 #10 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I welcome advice from all those here.

I have bought a Hasselblad 501c, with the 80/2,8 and 50/3,5. I haven't handled one of these for 20+ years, but the finder's great, and ergonomics are—well, Hasselblad!

I have a Japanese Gardens book project coming up soon (coffee table book), and I am not yet sure that the DMR can provide the needed resolution for the occasional double spread that the publisher requires. This gives rise to a lot of questions, some of which I will post on d64 and this MF thread on FM.

Many of the gardens are small, and in cramped locations. Wides are essential. I have the L15/3,5 and the 19/2,8 for the DMR—but as you know, that crop factor really kills the wide end (21 and 26 roughly). Yes, I can use both of these on the 5D, and I might—but then I was offered the Hassie for a really good price, and I started thinking...

A friend suggested I get the 30 Distagon—although fisheye, he claims that "ImageAlign" straightens the images perfectly, and that the lens is very sharp. The workflow I am planning for these images is capture on film at various exposures, drum scan, bring into PS, and exposure blend or tone map as necessary. That's one way.

Another way'd be to buy the SWC with the 38mm (if memory serves). Again. same workflow, but I have read that this wide is superb optically, and the publishers really want the images to pop.

Or—and this is the question—do you know of any digital back for the 501 that can capture onto cards? When I go to Japan, I want to travel with as small as kit as possible. The DMR and primes (and I have all of them from 15–180) is heavy! However, I could still do that if there's no viable alternative. If I could get a digital back for the 501, I could just carry a light meter, battery charger for the back, the lenses, and lots of cards. I have quite a few of each (CF and SD).

Any other suggestions gratefully received (like other websites, good places to get second-hand gear, etc.) gratefully received! regards to all, KL

May 26, 2006 at 04:31 AM

slungu
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p.18 #11 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Kit, as far as I know there is no digital back that is full frame on the Hassy, meening that your wide angle won't be there - as I understood that was a killer request for this assignment. So your only choice would be a scanner...
Regards, Stefan

May 26, 2006 at 06:20 AM

ajmichael
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p.18 #12 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

EZepeda wrote:
That PAL pin is a PITA. I guess there's an optical sensor in the Phase back, that won't "see" the pin if it's dirty...alcohol and a q-tip seem to work. The other main issue with the older Hassy bodies is the sync cable. Phase charges 50+ bucks for this little sub-mini to PC 6" cord, because your 20K+ back is useless without it, but it doesn't have that long tip that works best with the CFT* lenses. I do get occasional sync errors which is either due to the PAL pin or the sync cord. The cord isn't bad because I plopped my 50 bucks down for another spare and still get the same error. I'm thinking of have Paramount custom make me a long tip to sub-mini cord which they will do for all of 25 bucks. It's not a massive problem, just annoying and somewhat to be expected when pairing a twenty year old body with some of the newest in capture technology.

I'm unconvinced about the way in which Phase have implemented the PAL detection and think that it's the root cause of the sync problem. The "official" method of cleaning the pin is with a pan scourer(!) with instructions that it should be left bright and shiny after cleaning. I can think of several ways of detecting the movement of a piece of metal that don't require it to be optically perfect!

Andy

May 26, 2006 at 01:53 PM

marcwilson
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p.18 #13 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Kit,
Pretty much all the digital backs will fit on your hasselblad but none of them will give you comlete full frame..though some of course will come much closer than others..but at such a cost!
Perhaps for this project shoot on film and scan is best.
As far as lenses are concerned the haselblad 40mm is a wonderful lens and will give you approximately 23mm equivalent (I think).
The 38mm sw wide body / lens is stunning. The images are pin sharp and virtually distortion free and it is also a great camera to use.
As you already have the hasselblad you can almost think of it as a stunning wide angle lens for your camera..just using the same backs.
the only problems with it are the viewfinder but you can use a ground glass focussing screen on the back if you need.
It has its odd points but the image quality is stunning.
If you do look for one avoid the newer ones as the lenses were changed after laws on lead / arsenic in the glass (or something like that) and make sure you get one at the least with the black, not silver, lenses.
If you go to my website (www.marcwilson.co.uk) and look under online portfilios the (ninth) image (square one) of the sand blowing across the beach and blue sky was shot with one.
It would give you that 'pop' you are looking for.
I have not used the 30mm I am afraid so can't comment on that lens.
Hope some of that helps.
Marc

May 26, 2006 at 03:17 PM

marcwilson
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p.18 #14 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

kit,
just sent you a lengthy post but it's not showing up..

May 26, 2006 at 03:34 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.18 #15 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

marc, you have some great photographs on your homepage!

May 26, 2006 at 09:32 PM

marcwilson
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p.18 #16 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Thanks Andi,
Yeah one of them was just selected as a winner in the PDN Photo annual 2006 so I'm pretty happy with that!

Love your shot of the crosses on the rooftops..beautiful.

It must be living by the lake that inspires you..my mother is from Lausanne and I'm in Villars once or twice a year for the snow and the walking.

A really great part of the world.

May 26, 2006 at 10:20 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.18 #17 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Really
next time you are in Villars let me know, I usally have dinner with other photographers and you are welcome to join.
The lake is beautiful, very inspiring, at least half a dozen photographers per mile :-), but my roots are in the hilly Swissgerman part of Switzerland.

May 26, 2006 at 10:40 PM

marcwilson
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p.18 #18 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Thanks,
I may just do that.
I'll keep my eye out for a 50 lens for you also..mamiya 7 stuff comes up a fair amount over here.

May 26, 2006 at 10:45 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.18 #19 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Great

May 26, 2006 at 10:49 PM

geoffreyg
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p.18 #20 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Just one more followup on the Rollei and the digital back:

first, the Imacon was available, and you can still get the adapters to put it on the Rollei back. It will go on later 6008 and 6003 Pro's, I believe, altho I have not seen it. But the literature tells that it will work. I think there is some cord connection, but there is a plug on the Rollei for this.

Then Rollei goes and comes out with the 6008 Auto Focus, and then adds the DP20 back from Phase One. Interestingly enough, in light of the discussion about critical nature of focus on digital backs (on the Leica DMR bible), Rollei sells their digital back with auto focus, and with matched backs to the cameras. In talking with a Phase One rep, he indicated that they were concerned about exact lineup of back to camera.

One more thing - the Rollei AF will take the manual lenses, and gives a focus confirmation light when in focus. Pretty nifty. Its not bulletproof, and not like Canon stuff, but its pretty advanced for MF. Of course the Hassy H1 is also, but those Schneider and Zeiss lenses are to die for. I just went and added the 40 mm Schneider to the stable, to keep the 60 mm warm while I wait for the digital back prices to come down. There is something about focusing on the glass which is just plain old nice. And you get a magnifier too. Good for those over 50 eyes.

May 27, 2006 at 04:16 AM

shirozina
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p.18 #21 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I use the 40mm in my Hassleblad with the Sinar 22mp and it's not very impressive to be honest - my old 50mm ( non floating element) is better. I also use a Rodenstock 35mm on the ARC body - this is way better in resolution than the 40mm but as it's a non retrofocus lens like the 38mm on the SW you can run into corner shading problems ( this is correctable in the Sinar software but only at the point of capture)

May 27, 2006 at 09:04 AM

AlaBill
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p.18 #22 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Geoffrey...I've been thinking about the 6008 Auto Focus with DP20 back myself. The problem I have is the fear that this camera will be around in the next 2-3 years and if it's not there goes any value in the camera, lenses, and back.

Where is the best dealer for the 6008?

May 27, 2006 at 09:52 AM

mark1958
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p.18 #23 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Bill. I have a rollei X act -2 and have been talking to a number of dealers. There are a couple of folks in CA who do a bit of used sales and I can look those up if you like. Robertwhite.com in England is the biggest Rollei dealer I have found. I have the email of a directdistributor in the US. However, his prices are higher or the same than the dealers. B$H also sells the 6008.

May 27, 2006 at 05:55 PM

AlaBill
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p.18 #24 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Mark. I look at Robertwhite.com quite a bit. ffordes in Scotland also has a good stock of used lenses. I guess I'm just concerned about the Rollei 6008 future. If you don't mind looking up the California dealers I would appreciate it. Just talking with a few folks might give me a little more assurance of Rollei staying around.

May 27, 2006 at 07:33 PM

geoffreyg
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p.18 #25 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

To be truthful, the issue of Rollei future is a problem. No doubt about it. And we haven't reallyheard much from the F&H reorganization to get a sense of what they will do. Its pretty hard to update the lineup - maybe they will make an integral back for the 6008, but that seems a bit unlikely. They can't (in all likelyhood) have the funds to re-engineer a new camera... and the AF on the 6008, while decent enough, isn't going to set the world on fire.

So its not clear where they will go. Not that its all that different from the rest of the industry either, but it seems like Hassy bet the house on the H1 and future integration, and chose to move some aspects of production to the far east to make that happen. Not only a pretty good move, but their timing was excellent.

Rollei tried this move too, but they were too early. And the money they spent on scanning backs must have been huge, but unfortunately, now they have little to show for it. So its not easy to see where they might go.

My own favorite dream is something a bit goofy (OK - don't laugh too hard!) - a digital TLR. It would be compact, big sensor, and not have a floppy mirror. Give you all the virtues of the old TLR with new capture ability? Is this nuts - I don't know. But I'd like one!

As to the investment - well, there is the old adage - if you like it and you use it, who cares what the market thinks? There willb e service for a long time, and the product is a good one, but it is beginning to look a bit long in the tooth. But it is a great product. So go with what you like, if you can afford to not worry about the resale.

May 28, 2006 at 12:58 PM


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