Re: Screwed one more time

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Archive 2006 · Re: Screwed one more time

Melor
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p.3 #1 · Re: Screwed one more time

So Guy, tell us how you really feel.

Guy, in the long run, if Canon is so bad for Pro's then they will migrate to ... Leica?? or Nikon and Canon will lose market share and the problem will correct itself.

Your wishlist and what is going to sell a lot of product are two different lists. Canon will produce what makes them more money. In the long run will they lose pro photographers? Maybe, but how many non-pros need to buy 30Ds, 75-300 lenses, etc. to make up for the loss of a Pro who switched over? I bet not too many. Also, I have seen a lot of pro photographers using 20D bodies. Where do they fit in?

To put it in similar terms, I think the non-pro's got screwed more than the pros did. A 20D depreciated a lot very qickly with this announcement. My 1D2 didn't!....and thank God I am not a pro. Yippeee.

Paul

Paul

Guy Mancuso wrote:
You know Canon just screwed the pro’s again , no wide angle , no pro body but another version of a 1.6. The only thing that may and I mean may be good is the 85 1.2 but how much better optically is it from the old one. I am betting not much and the price is out there on a limb for no one to buy it at 2100.00 that is leica prices , what are they nuts. But the bottom line at the end of the day they did not even come close to solving the wide angle issue except throw another zoom at people . All the complaints and all the talk of wide angle issues and still we are left holding the bag. Frankly I am glad I switched , they really don’t deserve a dime from pro photographers and they sit there and scratch there head wondering why pro’s or advanced hobbyist are buying Zeiss and leica lenses.

Just my take on the whole PMA announcement from Canon

I honestly feel bad for you guy's , they solved none of there issues.

Okay i am sure i will get flamed but before you do , look at the big picture not just your needs. Also i like Canon a lot this is just sad to see what market they want to make money off of. That 85 1.2 should be 1500 and not a nickel more

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:57 PM

reggie747
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p.3 #2 · Re: Screwed one more time

No matter what they make there'll always be some b*****d moaning at it !!
Who is this Guy dude anyway ??

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:58 PM

helios4
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p.3 #3 · Re: Screwed one more time

I agree with Guy.

However, we must admit that Canon is very good at marketing.
Buyers of 1D MKII and 5D will be very satisfied. Canon just fill spaces with its 30D.

I presume we have to wait October 2006 for the new 22MP 1Dsx

(too bad, I bought a 85L1.2, 5 months ago but I don't need fast AF with this one...useless for some )

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:58 PM

EB-1
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p.3 #4 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy,

I agree, we got screwed again.

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:30 PM

Photon
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p.3 #5 · Re: Screwed one more time

I'm very glad that Canon did not introduce a 50/1.2L, because that's what I really want, and I can't afford to invest in another L this spring!
The new 85L sounds great, but my 85/1.8 pays for its keep, and I'm afraid that my clients wouldn't pay enough more for shots done with the 1.2 to cover the price of the lens in any reasonable time. More power to those shooters who command the sales to justify the 1.2 - I hope to get there in time.
As for the dearth of great WA primes, I'm happy with the 24L and 35L on the 1Ds, and just don't do enough in the 15-20mm range to need better than the stuff I have. Looking around at my fellow pros in this area, I'd say there are far more who mainly shoot portraits than those who do high-end architecture and landscape work. Maybe that's another reason that the needs of (some) pros are given short shrift by Canon?

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:42 PM

Pondria
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p.3 #6 · Re: Screwed one more time

mark1958 wrote:
I think Canon has done extremely well with the AF system. I mean the speed of their AF on their series 1 cameras (of course dependent on the lens too) is just incredible. I also think there tele lens are the best in the world if you take into consideration AF, IS and optics. If you look at optics alone their lenses are not bad. However, i do agree that the wide angle has been the weakest group of lenses in their arsenal. I think what Guy was trying to point out is that they should focus (and i mean focus) some of their efforts on the wide angle market. Mark

Hmmm,
Just take a look at the Sig line of those who complain about Canon's Wide-angle. They usually have a couple of Canon wides

.
Folks, it doesn't work ! Why would Canon invest the money to improve the wides while they can sell ?
The Forum noise won't reach them. Only money can.

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:57 PM

knov87
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p.3 #7 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy,
So how do we (FF owners) get Canon's attention?
If you create a petition, we would sign it :-)

I was about to get the 85mm 1.2L, I'm glad I hold it off. I will be the first in line buying the new version :-)

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:58 PM

EB-1
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p.3 #8 · Re: Screwed one more time

Yes, we are getting screwed by Canon from both ends! The wide lenses for FF are lacking and the high-res body for teles is lacking as well. Why is Canon so clueless or just arrogant?

EB

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:16 AM

knov87
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p.3 #9 · Re: Screwed one more time

Dang! just realized the list price for the new 851.2.
Maybe not the 1st in line :-(

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:19 AM

SeaCay
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p.3 #10 · Re: Screwed one more time

Damn, all my Canon gear is shit. Shit I tell ya. I'm going to throw it all away. I can't sell it because it's shit, and I couldn't live with myself for selling shit to an unsuspecting buyer. Shit!

Now that I got that off my chest...

Guy:

Looking at your lens lineup, it seems as if you have the wide end covered fairly well with your Leica glass. Why do you care what Canon does, or does not do at this point? I have no clue what Nikon, et al, have to offer in their lens lineups. I don't own their products. Why would I waste my time whining about Nikon not having a particular niche item? Aren't you happy with your system? If so, why come to the Canon board to gripe? Not enough posts on your DMR thread yet? Is that what it takes for you to justify your decisions?

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:28 AM

python2000
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p.3 #11 · Re: Screwed one more time

Although I don't share with Guy's pessimism, I have to say I believe he was dead on about his predictions as to what Canon would release.

CK - Guy M. cares because he wants all photography to be elevated, and Canon can do that if they try. When Guy talks, it's not just FMers who listen.

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:31 AM

SeaCay
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p.3 #12 · Re: Screwed one more time

python:

I know who Guy is. I stand by my comments.

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:35 AM

DaveEP
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p.3 #13 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy Mancuso wrote:
You know Canon just screwed the pro’s again , no wide angle , no pro body but another version of a 1.6.

I have the utmost respect for Guy, and his general opinions, and agree mostly with what he says. I think if I were some one who needed wide angle a lot (which I don't), I would perhaps be considering another system, but perhaps as an addition, rather than a replacement.

At least on the wide angle end, Leica / Zeiss provide a solution that will allow Pro's to get what they need, if Canon are not providing the goods. On the long end, neither Leica or Zeiss appear to be in the ball game at all. How many compaines provide superb 400mm - 600mm telephotos of the standard that Canon do? Not many.....

So, it seems to me that for a Pro working in the wide angle areana most of the time, Leica/Zeiss have the lead (using an adapter if required). If you are a Pro working in the mid range most of the time, the 85L and 135L do a superb job for the money, and in the telephoto, be it wildlife or sports, Canon just can't be beat.

So, when Guy says that the Pro's have been screwed again, I am not totally sure I agree.

They have not screwed the mid range people, they have not screwed the telephoto people, and, I am sure did not set out to 'get Mr Mancuso' either. Perhaps their offerings are sub par in the wide angle department, but who else can match their overall breadth of products? While ever people contine to buy Canon wide angle lenses, Canon will not feel the need to upgrade them. If no one bought them, then it would be a different matter altogether.

Again, I say this with the utmost repsect for Guy, his opinions and his awesome work....

Edited by DaveEP on Feb 22, 2006 at 12:44 AM GMT

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:39 AM

DaveEP
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p.3 #14 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy Mancuso wrote:
Dave go check a leica 400 2.8 better yet better not .

Tell me it's auto focus...... and I may just look. Have you tried constant manually focusing on an F1 car doing almost 200mph?

It's hard enough with AF !!

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:55 AM

python2000
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p.3 #15 · Re: Screwed one more time

SeaCay wrote:
python:
I know who Guy is. I stand by my comments.

CK, sorry if I sounded argumentative. I wasn't try to say that you didn't know who Guy was, but that Canon does know who he is, and that his posting on this forum can have an impact. To what degree, i don't know. But if anyone that matters from Canon ever visits FM, I doubt it's just to read the Alternative boards.

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:57 AM

jen729w
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p.3 #16 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy wrote:
But yet shareholders come first.

You must know, Guy, that this is a legal requirement. Shareholders must, by law, come first. Canon are not allowed to design an UWA prime that might only sell 300 copies (because most of us can't afford the thing) and be a financial loss. The shareholders - most of whom couldn't give a rat's ass about photography, by the way - would scream.

I don't like it any more than you do, but hey. Welcome to the world.

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:22 AM

DavidP
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p.3 #17 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy,

Doesn't it actually make more sense for a PRO to be using medium format digicams for their wide-angle stuff, and using the 35mm for their longer reach stuff?

If (it's a big if, but I think it may well be true) that we've reached a point where going to smaller pixels isn't going to help us much, then surely the best way to get better images that require wide field-of-views is to use medium format, right?

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:28 AM

mauriceramirez
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p.3 #18 · Re: Screwed one more time

DavidP wrote:
Doesn't it actually make more sense for a PRO to be using medium format digicams for their wide-angle stuff, and using the 35mm for their longer reach stuff?

Oh... my... god...

i just realized that i waste so much of my time here.

somebody, please cancel my account.

-m

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:46 AM

DavidP
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p.3 #19 · Re: Screwed one more time

I'll take that as a "no", Maurice?

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:53 AM

python2000
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p.3 #20 · Re: Screwed one more time

I hope before Maurice cancels his account he can explain why David's comment led him to so many "..."s

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:57 AM

DavidP
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p.3 #21 · Re: Screwed one more time

Honestly, I was asking Guy's opinion because I respect it.

Obviously, I understand the benefits of staying with a single system.

But it would seem that PROs who truly require GREAT wide-angle lenses for their shots would also benefit a lot from a larger format, as well. Which is why I asked the question.

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:03 AM

The Image
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p.3 #22 · Re: Screwed one more time

canon give this professional a sharp sharp well corrected ultra wide angle L and i will be happy. photokina??

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:08 AM

rprouty
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p.3 #23 · Re: Screwed one more time

So, I guess after Guy tells us we're all screwed we'll all be selling our Canon equipment and replacing it with Leicas. Well, maybe not, I guess I'll keep my 300 f/2.8IS, 500 f/4IS, and 600 f/4IS if I can find an adapter to fit a Leica. I'm sure I would rather have an 11 MP Leica than a 16.7 MP Canon...

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:10 AM

braindeadmac
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p.3 #24 · Re: Screwed one more time

DavidP wrote:
Guy,

Doesn't it actually make more sense for a PRO to be using medium format digicams for their wide-angle stuff, and using the 35mm for their longer reach stuff?

If (it's a big if, but I think it may well be true) that we've reached a point where going to smaller pixels isn't going to help us much, then surely the best way to get better images that require wide field-of-views is to use medium format, right?

The wide angle problem is a every bit as much a limitation on the MF digital backs as it is on the FF cameras, maybe worse. For example, the Hasselblad HC 35/3.5 (the widest for the H1/H2, and not particularly well regarded) is equivalent to about a 26mm lens on the H2D39 (that's a guesstimate doing the numbers in my head, but I think it's pretty close). And that Hassie 35 will set you back about 2700 USD, but that's OK, your pocket will be flush after buying the camera for $35,000 or so. If you want to go superwide on a digital back, you currently have to use Schneider Digitar lenses on a view camera or the Horseman SW/SWD bodies or Cambo Wide camera bodies. These combos alone run $4000 to $6000, not including the back!

Of course, Canon (or even Nikon) teles are the way to go for the long end. So a pro could schlep around something like this:

Cambo Wide + 1 Schneider Digitar lens to cover ultrawides.
Medium format system and 4-5 lenses of his choosing to cover moderate wide angles.
Canon 1ds2 and Canon Super-teles.

Yes it could be done, but why? All we need are some good super wide angle primes from Canon, more like the Contax 21 Distagon. People say "no one will buy these lenses, they are too narrow market, not broad enough".

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:32 AM

nads
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p.3 #25 · Re: Screwed one more time

timparkin wrote:
Hrow wrote:
Me thinks that many people here have missed Guy's point.

They are also arguing that canon is a shareholder run company, hence they'll only do what the shareholders want. But generally what the shareholders want is to hear good stuff being talked about the company in the semi-pro forums. Telling people not to talk about the shortcomings is going *make sure* they don't address those shortcomings.

Yeah, sure. Like the countless Microsoft employees that spent more time worryinag about the negative image much of the public had about the company than they spent thinking about the millions of dollars they were making. I personally don't know a lot of people that design a stock portfolio around the concept of "feeling really good about not making any money".

The point isn't hard to miss... Canon is screwing the entire photo industry by not introducing newer better wide angle primes.

You know I really like roast beef sandwhiches made quickly. I'm not going to run around complaining that McDonalds is screwing the fast food industry because they won't release a roast beef sandwhich. I'll just go to Arby's.

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:36 AM


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