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Archive 2005 · 20d flash question

  
 
prowlerregal
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p.1 #1 · 20d flash question


I'm having a problem mastering the flash with this camera. I put the camera on program and it reads "shutter 1/60th, f stop 4" for correct exposure. I put the camera on manual with the 1/60, f 4 and it reads 2 stops under exposed. How can this be?


Dec 31, 2005 at 04:21 PM
Shivatron
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p.1 #2 · 20d flash question


That's a good question. First you need to understand a bit about exposure and how your camera works.

When you use Av, Tv, or M modes, your camera meters for the ambient light (light around you) and either sets or tells you to set a shutter speed and aperture that will allow the light around you to create a correct exposure.

Now let's say you're in a dark room and you want to use flash. If you look at your camera's meter in M mode, it might tell you that you need 3 seconds at f/4 to create the correct exposure. This is a measure of the ambient light. The camera's meter, however, tells you NOTHING about how much light will be added by your flash.

In Program mode, the camera recognises that you've turned the flash on. Thus, it decides that it can safely underexpose using the ambient light and instead rely on the flash to make the exposure. That's why you noticed that the scene meters as underexposed in M, when in fact the camera suggests that it's the correct exposure in P.

EDIT: Put simply, the P mode reading isn't a measure of the ambient light as in Av, Tv or M, it's the combination of ambient metering with a guess made by the camera for how much light the flash will contribute.

Let me know if this makes sense.



Dec 31, 2005 at 04:36 PM
prowlerregal
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p.1 #3 · 20d flash question


Shivatron,
Thanks for the reply. That does help. I have another question. Based on your explanation, in manual mode, does the camera never recognize that you are using flash? How do I set the correct exposure when I want to use flash in manual?



Dec 31, 2005 at 04:52 PM
Jeff.
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p.1 #4 · 20d flash question


in manuel mode it knows you are using a flash....

you simply pick an F-stop , pick your shutter (anything above 1/250th ... aka 1/125th etc) then with the flash up , and focused.... shoot!

you setting the shutter will determine how much ambient light is included in the picture particually in low light situation or with high f-stops when more time is needed to expose the ambient light correctly

hope that helps



Dec 31, 2005 at 04:59 PM
Shivatron
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p.1 #5 · 20d flash question


prowlerregal wrote:
Shivatron,
Thanks for the reply. That does help. I have another question. Based on your explanation, in manual mode, does the camera never recognize that you are using flash? How do I set the correct exposure when I want to use flash in manual?


The camera does recognize your flash if it's an EX-compatible speedlight. You'll notice this by the lightning bolt icon in your viewfinder (I think, long time since I used a 20D ). However, in manual mode, there will be no change in the reading: the camera knows the flash is there but does nothing about it.

So what can you do? If you're using E-TTL, you have it easy. First you need to decide if you want to see the ambient exposure or not. In other words, do you want the scene to be lit only by the flash or do you want to see the ambient light in the exposure as well?

If you want the scene to be lit only by the flash, that's easy. Set a smallish aperture (not too small -- your flash will have to work harder -- say f/8), and then set a fast shutter speed (1/100 or 1/200 of a second). In other words, in manual mode, intentionally underexpose by 4 or 5 stops. You will notice that the ambient (non-flash) light doesn't appear much in the exposure.

I'm going to dig up an example image, and then finish this post. Stay tuned...

EDIT: All right, I'm back. Here's an example of what I'm talking about above. It was taken in a lit hallway, but I cranked the shutter speed (1/500s) and dropped the ISO (ISO 200) so that the ambient light and the flash is the only light that shows up in the picture.

http://www.shivamayer.com/Portraits/20051113-004244.jpg

If you want to see the ambient light, you have it a bit harder. You still want to underexpose (otherwise your picture will be blurry), but you need to expose enough to register the background light. This is often called "balancing the ambient". You will almost certainly want to use your lens wide open (biggest f-number) for this.

Say your scene meters 1/5 second at f/2.8. Well, you think, that's too damn slow, my picture will be blurry! But you still want the ambient light. So you pick 1/30s at f/2.8. Still a litte slow, but hopefully the exposure will be "frozen" by the flash so it doesn't look blurry. (At least that's the idea, sometimes it doesn't pan out.) And then the flash provides the correct exposure to make up the difference (you don't need to worry about setting that since E-TTL does it for you).

Here's an example. It is really dark here, ambient meters over 1/2s f/4 at ISO 800. I'm brave and want a lot of ambient light so I go for a really slow shutter, 1/5s at f/4 ISO 800. The flash does the rest.

http://www.shivamayer.com/Life_at_the_AMS/20050903-235747.jpg

Now, the last thing to remember is that this is an oversimplification. There are a LOT of other things to consider. For example, Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) is often required to get a correct flash exposure. Also, E-TTL metering sometimes does wacky things so I often use my flash in manual mode.

Here are some basics to remember:

1. Aperture controls ambient exposure and flash exposure, but when using E-TTL, flash exposure will be held constant by the flash.
2. Shutter speed only controls ambient exposure.
3. ISO controls ambient exposure and flash exposure, but when using E-TTL, flash exposure will be held constant by the flash.
4. FEC can be used to change metered flash exposure.

Good luck!

Edited by Shivatron on Dec 31, 2005 at 05:19 PM GMT



Dec 31, 2005 at 05:04 PM
Jeff.
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p.1 #6 · 20d flash question


so i was right.... i just didnt write nearly as much =P


Dec 31, 2005 at 05:09 PM
prowlerregal
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p.1 #7 · 20d flash question


I just tried manual mode (inside my house). For a correct exposure the camera said 1/6th at F 2.8. (I had to go all the way down to 1/6th to get a correct reading in the camera.) If I use the flash, will this still be correct or do I have to change the shutter speed? I hesitate using the 1/6th because of the possibility of camera shake. What am I missing?


Dec 31, 2005 at 05:19 PM
Shivatron
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p.1 #8 · 20d flash question


prowlerregal wrote:
I just tried manual mode (inside my house). For a correct exposure the camera said 1/6th at F 2.8. (I had to go all the way down to 1/6th to get a correct reading in the camera.) If I use the flash, will this still be correct or do I have to change the shutter speed? I hesitate using the 1/6th because of the possibility of camera shake. What am I missing?


Okay, here's where you have to put your creative juices to work. Do you want only the flash to light the scene, or do you want to see the ambient light? If you want very little ambient light, only the flash, then screw your ambient reading, set 1/60s at f/4 and shoot away.

If you want to see the ambient, then you have it more difficult. You can try something like 1/30ths at f/2.8. What you will see is that if you have camera shake, you will have a sharp object from when the flash hit it, surrounded by a blurry halo caused by the shake during the ambient exposure. Sometimes this looks can be desired...



Dec 31, 2005 at 05:24 PM
vciinc
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p.1 #9 · 20d flash question


Try setting your ISO to 200, your shutter speed to 1/125th and your fstop to f5. Then dial up +2/3 on your flash and check your histogram and change the flash compensation accordingly. This works well for me.

Jerry



Dec 31, 2005 at 05:27 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #10 · 20d flash question


Here is an easy method: Set Custom Function 03 (Flash sync speed in Av mode) to 1, which is fixed at 1/250 sec.

Now in Av mode, choose whatever aperture you want and shoot. If the image is too dark, you will have to move closer or open your aperture more.

If you don't set CF 03 in this manner, when you shoot in Av mode, the camera will automatically pick whatever shutter speed will expose the scene properly WITHOUT THE FLASH.



Dec 31, 2005 at 05:38 PM
ChrisDM
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p.1 #11 · 20d flash question


Think of it this way. A flash shot is essentially two exposures: The flash exposes the foreground, or subject, in "a flash", then the shutter stays open for however long you choose to expose the background.

For dimly lit rooms, I will use M mode, and set the lens wide open and the shutter speed to read an underexposure of 1 to 2 stops. This will be just enough to see some background, but the flash will automatically properly expose the subject (or at least get close. See FEC...) At this point, if the shutter speed is still ridiculously slow, increase the ISO to allow a faster shutter speed.

I also use a Stofen Omnibounce with the flash head at 45 degrees to give a more appealing light from the flash.



Dec 31, 2005 at 05:49 PM
prowlerregal
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p.1 #12 · 20d flash question


Shivatron, thanks.I think I unferstand what you are saying.I'll try it out tomorrow at a family gathering.


Dec 31, 2005 at 06:19 PM
prowlerregal
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p.1 #13 · 20d flash question


Thanks to everyone who replied to my post.


Dec 31, 2005 at 06:22 PM
elader
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p.1 #14 · 20d flash question


try putting the camera on manual, the flash on ETTL auto, the shutter at 1/100 and the lens at f5 and take a picture....


Dec 31, 2005 at 06:29 PM
supermarvin76
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p.1 #15 · 20d flash question


Imagemaster wrote:
Here is an easy method: Set Custom Function 03 (Flash sync speed in Av mode) to 1, which is fixed at 1/250 sec.

Now in Av mode, choose whatever aperture you want and shoot. If the image is too dark, you will have to move closer or open your aperture more.

If you don't set CF 03 in this manner, when you shoot in Av mode, the camera will automatically pick whatever shutter speed will expose the scene properly WITHOUT THE FLASH.


I was going to state this same thing, but was already said, so I dido it.



Dec 31, 2005 at 10:23 PM
jmccoy
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p.1 #16 · 20d flash question


I have some very closely related questions, so I thought I could steal this thread instead of making my own Hope you don't mind..

On my 350D, if I am shooting on a very bright day in Av mode, do I just have to pop the flash up for fill flash? Is it that simple? (I do not have an external flash). Does FEC affect fill flash at all? Does using fill flash ever overexpose an image?

http://www.jake-mccoy.com/misc/IMG_1860.JPG

This is one example of a type of photo I've been having difficulty with lately. You'll see the left side of the cat is overexposed, while I'd like more exposure on the cat itself (harsh sunlight from a window). Now, I want to give it -EC, but I want something to expose the cat more.. flash, right? In this case, would regular flash or fill flash be used? Is there any way for me to choose fill flash over bright flash, or is that automatic?

Thanks for any help, sorry for stealing the thread



Jan 01, 2006 at 12:57 PM
Malcolm Stitt
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p.1 #17 · 20d flash question


JMCcoy,

The left side is overexposed without the flash. This is not a flash problem, but an ambient light exposure problem.

To fix this, first correct the ambient exposure without flash. You can do this by:
1) Without flash, Set the camera in P mode, and see what exposure it pics.
2) Put the camera in M mode, and set the same fstop and shutter spd that P mode selected.
Then..
Add flash, preferable bounced off the right wall.

A few other points:
M mode and flash are friends. They give you better repeatabliity than othe rmodes.
Until you get the hang of it, try shooting flash shots at ISO 400. This ensures that you will have enough flash power to compete with the ambient light. (especially true when using built in flash) Also, shoot RAW. Even the above shot could probably be recovered in RAW by adjusting the exposure after-the-fact.

When you get the hang of this learn about the histogram. Read the Luminous Landscape article named something like "Shoot to the right".



Good luck!


Edited by Malcolm Stitt on Jan 01, 2006 at 02:05 PM GMT



Jan 01, 2006 at 01:59 PM
jmccoy
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p.1 #18 · 20d flash question


Sorry for any confusion, that shot was shot only with ambient light. I haven't yet used my flash for anything.. after 8+ months, I figure it's time for me to start learning how to use it

My question was regarding how I would use the flash to avoid overexposure from the light while still properly exposing the subject. Could I go -1 stop EC and use fill flash for better exposure?



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:03 PM
Malcolm Stitt
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p.1 #19 · 20d flash question


jmccoy,
Ok, so what I said still applies. But, you need to second guess the camera's exposure in shots like this. Use the histogram. There are many times where all I look at is the histogram in reivew mode.

Again M mode is good here, with or without flash. It will allow you to dial in the exposure for a number of shots, without being thrown off by glare, a shaddow, etc.

You may also want to look at the different metering modes. Center weighted can be tricky, since it is easy to accidently be aiming at a shadow, bright spot,etc.



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:11 PM
SJMD
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p.1 #20 · 20d flash question


The av mode exposes for backgound and flash is exposed for model/subject.

Better yet, use a ttipod or table top. change on variable, write down all settings and watch what happens. That is when it made sense to me.

God bless

steve



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:38 PM
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