D200 Banding is real.

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rico
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p.3 #1 · D200 Banding is real.

chemprof wrote:
This is 100% crop from the upper right corner (shade, window frame, smooth wall). Note that this is NOT an anomaly. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I can find it in ALL of my images, including out of focus areas in any image. It's most noticable in mid-tone areas.

Gerald

Hi, John! I'll let this thread play out until I get a full JPEG sample. Plus, I can borrow Gerald's crop for a quick assessment. From it, I detect a statistical imbalance between alternating pairs of pixel columns to the amount of almost 3%. This will be increaingly noticeable as the contrast curve is stretched. That column-pairs are involved implies that alternating Bayer cells (2x2 sensor sites in the RGGB pattern) are out of balance (correctable in firmware).

The algorithm I deploy in the following, rebalanced crop of Gerald's does appear to improve matters greatly:

Based on my quick results, I need to apply a secondary correction to fix some residual banding. Anyone with that full-sized D200 JPEG...?

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 03:18 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #2 · D200 Banding is real.

Rico,

I no longer have the camera, because I sent it back, but II still have the file. I'm not sure my e-mail can handle it, but perhaps we can try for me to send it to you? This is quite interesting. Thanks for your analysis! Let me know how to send you the file.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 04:07 AM

rico
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p.3 #3 · D200 Banding is real.

Gerald,

Feel free to attempt an e-mail delivery: my server can take it! As you said initially, the low-ISO version will be most suitable, since high-ISO smoothing isn't desired here. Similarly, if you have a HighQuality JPEG, rather than LowQuality, that will limit JPEG-induced smoothing.

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 04:25 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #4 · D200 Banding is real.

Rico,

I've PM's you my e-mail address so that you can send me yours.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 04:42 AM

KURTZ
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p.3 #5 · D200 Banding is real.

My question to those who have had banding is, it seems that this banding does not happen in all your images, I wonder if it has to do with your in-camera settings. Are any of your settings set to "auto", say for contrast or sharpening? This might explain why it is only happening of a sampling of your shots.

Just a thought...

-kurtz

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 06:43 AM

genghis45
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p.3 #6 · D200 Banding is real.

rico wrote:
chemprof wrote:
This is 100% crop from the upper right corner (shade, window frame, smooth wall). Note that this is NOT an anomaly. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I can find it in ALL of my images, including out of focus areas in any image. It's most noticable in mid-tone areas.

Gerald

Canon DSLR I have tested (D30, D60, 20D) also exhibit a systematic imbalance, although different in its pattern: the two G measures within a given Bayer 2x2 is inconsistent by about 1%. The effect is seen as a grid or mesh pattern, but often masked by JPEG compression. Noone is perfect, eh? :)

Based on my quick results, I need to apply a secondary correction to fix some residual banding. Anyone with that full-sized D200 JPEG...?

*******************************************************

It appears to me that all that is being accomplished here, is that you're softening the image---which has a secondary effect of visually deemphasizing the banding artifact.

Scott

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 07:23 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #7 · D200 Banding is real.

KURTZ wrote:
My question to those who have had banding is, it seems that this banding does not happen in all your images, I wonder if it has to do with your in-camera settings. Are any of your settings set to "auto", say for contrast or sharpening? This might explain why it is only happening of a sampling of your shots.

Just a thought...

-kurtz

Did you read the whole thread? IMO, those that are seeing this in only some of their images are either not looking in the right areas of their images, have too much detail to see it well, or not looking close enough. After figuring out the pattern of the problem, I can find it in ALL of the images taken with the D200 I just sent back. Low ISO, high ISO, NR, no NR, etc.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 12:26 PM

chemprof
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p.3 #8 · D200 Banding is real.

genghis45 wrote:
rico wrote:
chemprof wrote:
This is 100% crop from the upper right corner (shade, window frame, smooth wall). Note that this is NOT an anomaly. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I can find it in ALL of my images, including out of focus areas in any image. It's most noticable in mid-tone areas.

Gerald

Hi, John! I'll let this thread play out until I get a full JPEG sample. Plus, I can borrow Gerald's crop for a quick assessment. From it, I detect a statistical imbalance between alternating pairs of pixel columns to the amount of almost 3%. This will be increaingly noticeable as the contrast curve is stretched. That column-pairs are involved implies that alternating Bayer cells (2x2 sensor sites in the RGGB pattern) are out of balance (correctable in firmware).

The algorithm I deploy in the following, rebalanced crop of Gerald's does appear to improve matters greatly:

Canon DSLR I have tested (D30, D60, 20D) also exhibit a systematic imbalance, although different in its pattern: the two G measures within a given Bayer 2x2 is inconsistent by about 1%. The effect is seen as a grid or mesh pattern, but often masked by JPEG compression. Noone is perfect, eh?

Based on my quick results, I need to apply a secondary correction to fix some residual banding. Anyone with that full-sized D200 JPEG...?

*******************************************************

It appears to me that all that is being accomplished here, is that you're softening the image---which has a secondary effect of visually deemphasizing the banding artifact.

Scott

I agree that there's detail loss. That's one of the reasons I knew not to keep the D200 I had. I figured any processing would eliminate the apparently high level of detail in the images. Let's see what Rico comes up with with in the next pass, and let's continue to look for an answer from Nikon as well.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 12:29 PM

tonyfield
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p.3 #9 · D200 Banding is real.

genghis45 wrote:
It appears to me that all that is being accomplished here, is that you're softening the image---which has a secondary effect of visually deemphasizing the banding artifact.

I cannot see a decrease in sharpness / contrast. There is a psycho-visual effect that attributes "sharpness" to the banding since the banding is relatively sharp. This is the same effect as adding sharp noise to an image to increase the perception of sharpness. I suspect the algorithm he is using does nothing more than correct the imbalance in the bayerization of the image.

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 04:00 PM

rico
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p.3 #10 · D200 Banding is real.

I agree with Tony that banding generates an impression of detail and, when removed, makes the image appear flat. Film-based images enjoy the same effect - until grain lands in the sky! Indeed, the algorithm merely affects alternating Bayer columns: methods like Gaussian blur and sharpening are unsuitable for this D200 problem.

More to come...

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 05:44 PM

Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #11 · D200 Banding is real.

chemprof wrote:
Did you read the whole thread? IMO, those that are seeing this in only some of their images are either not looking in the right areas of their images, have too much detail to see it well, or not looking close enough. After figuring out the pattern of the problem, I can find it in ALL of the images taken with the D200 I just sent back. Low ISO, high ISO, NR, no NR, etc.

Gerald

I've read the whole thread. I haven't taken many shots with mine, but I've not seen any banding, at 200 to 300% viewing, with very heavy applications of contrast and sharpening, to bring out any defects.

Your unit would seem to be defective, but that doesn't mean that they're all like that.

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 06:14 PM

KURTZ
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p.3 #12 · D200 Banding is real.

Did you read the whole thread?

Don't get snotty

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 07:03 PM

genghis45
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p.3 #13 · D200 Banding is real.

tonyfield wrote:
genghis45 wrote:
It appears to me that all that is being accomplished here, is that you're softening the image---which has a secondary effect of visually deemphasizing the banding artifact.

I cannot see a decrease in sharpness / contrast. There is a psycho-visual effect that attributes "sharpness" to the banding since the banding is relatively sharp. This is the same effect as adding sharp noise to an image to increase the perception of sharpness. I suspect the algorithm he is using does nothing more than correct the imbalance in the bayerization of the image.

*****************************************************

If one carefully scrutinizes the edges, one can readily see a degradation in shapness after the processing.

Scott

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 10:15 PM

rob_r
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p.3 #14 · D200 Banding is real.

can't see this on my images.. hmm..

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 24, 2005 at 10:25 PM

Fundy
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p.3 #15 · D200 Banding is real.

chemprof wrote:
rocketpop wrote:
Wow... That image looks like corduroy

Not exactly what I had in mind when I bought the camera!

Gerald

Gerald,

Definitely print that out, pack the camera up and return it for a new one right away! Don't mess around with that.

Andrew

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 12:03 AM

johnnymg
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p.3 #16 · D200 Banding is real.

Kerry Pierce wrote:
chemprof wrote:
Did you read the whole thread? IMO, those that are seeing this in only some of their images are either not looking in the right areas of their images, have too much detail to see it well, or not looking close enough. After figuring out the pattern of the problem, I can find it in ALL of the images taken with the D200 I just sent back. Low ISO, high ISO, NR, no NR, etc.

Gerald

I've read the whole thread. I haven't taken many shots with mine, but I've not seen any banding, at 200 to 300% viewing, with very heavy applications of contrast and sharpening, to bring out any defects.

Your unit would seem to be defective, but that doesn't mean that they're all like that.

Kerry

Ditto for my D200. No "banding" when reviewing images at 100% mag.

I'm using N Capture 4.4 to open the NEF's. The 100% images look sweeeeeeeet.

JohnG

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 12:42 AM

Karen80
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p.3 #17 · D200 Banding is real.

No banding in mine either. One of the earlier posters seemed to indicate it was in NEF images only, and that it didn't appear in JPEGs generated in camera. This may indicate a software raw converter problem rather than a camera problem.

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 04:40 AM

Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #18 · D200 Banding is real.

Karen80 wrote:
No banding in mine either. One of the earlier posters seemed to indicate it was in NEF images only, and that it didn't appear in JPEGs generated in camera. This may indicate a software raw converter problem rather than a camera problem.

I've seen other comments suggesting that it was a NEF conversion problem. I suppose that could be so, but I am not seeing it with Capture 4.4 and the camera JPGs are fine.

I just downloaded Bibble 4.5 and tomorrow I will give that a go on the NEFs I have.

Fortunately, it doesn't appear to be a widespread problem, only affecting a few unfortunate users.

EDIT; I just remembered that a conversion util called Silkypix will convert d200 NEFs, and has a tool to remove banding. Dunno what they might know about the issue or if it is their conversion that causes it to begin with.

Edited by Kerry Pierce on Dec 24, 2005 at 11:54 PM GMT

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 04:49 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #19 · D200 Banding is real.

More likely you're losing detail in your jpeg compression. My jpegs had banding as well. I'm really glad that most of you are all seeming to be getting good cameras. I also hope that this thread helps some people find a problem quickly, should they have it.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 04:51 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #20 · D200 Banding is real.

KURTZ wrote:
Did you read the whole thread?

Don't get snotty

I had mentioned several times that it this effect was visible in every image. It's always a good idea to do all of the important background reading prior to drawing a conclusion or making a comment.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 04:54 AM

KURTZ
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p.3 #21 · D200 Banding is real.

I had mentioned several times that it this effect was visible in every image Actually you say "in nearly all images", not "every image".

Like I said, snotty.

I did read the entire thread, but I wanted to make sure it was not your settings since you seem somewhat excitable and jump to conclusions. I just got that impression from you overreacting when Nikon did not call you back or email you within 30 minutes.

Also, if you keep shooting the same stuffed animals everytime even if you are changing ISO the auto adjustments would still influence the quality.

I also thing this thread name should be changed to "D200 Banding is real, well maybe"

No more eggnog for me, I am starting to enjoy this bandy about banding. hiccup

Cheers,
Kurtz

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 05:27 AM

chemprof
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p.3 #22 · D200 Banding is real.

KURTZ wrote:
I had mentioned several times that it this effect was visible in every image Actually you say "in nearly all images", not "every image".

Like I said, snotty.

I did read the entire thread, but I wanted to make sure it was not your settings since you seem somewhat excitable and jump to conclusions. I just got that impression from you overreacting when Nikon did not call you back or email you within 30 minutes.

Also, if you keep shooting the same stuffed animals everytime even if you are changing ISO the auto adjustments would still influence the quality.

I also thing this thread name should be changed to "D200 Banding is real, well maybe"

No more eggnog for me, I am starting to enjoy this bandy about banding. hiccup

Cheers,
Kurtz

1. Guess what, Nikon NEVER called or e-mailed me back.
2. I shot nearly 200 images with the D200 I had under all different conditions, lighting, and settings. ALL OF THEM SHOWED BANDING.
3. For the D200 I had, BANDING WAS REAL.
4. Banding may or may not exist on any D200 you may be holding in your hands. I merely strongly recommend that individuals that just picked one up examine their images VERY closely to make sure this is not an issue, as it may not be noticeable in all areas of an image due to the image density.
5. Mid-tone areas will show the most obvious banding if your camera has this problem, EVEN THOUGH higher detail areas will ALSO show the problem, should your camera have this defect.

Merry Christmas to all, hope you all have a peaceful and joyous Christmas, without worries and with your families.

Gerald

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 25, 2005 at 01:24 PM

fotographer
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p.3 #23 · D200 Banding is real.

I have only had my D200 since Dec 22nd and have taken about 500 images. After reading some posts on this thread I examined about 100 of the images of various subjects at various ISOs and found absolutely no banding at all. In fact The images are coming out quite nice right out of the camera. Shooting RAW & JPG.

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 30, 2005 at 01:43 AM

Chipouille
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p.3 #24 · D200 Banding is real.

I have now more than 6500 ( !!! ) shots with my D200, working almost every day since I bought it on Dec. 15th. (Lucky me !)

I've noticed some very very faint banding in 3 ore 4 pictures at the very beginning - only in extremely dark areas. Since then, nothing. At all. Never came back again, I don't know what happened, but the "problem" (I could have been living with it) seems to be solved.

Strange...

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 30, 2005 at 01:59 AM

johnnymg
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p.3 #25 · D200 Banding is real.

Chipouille wrote:
I have now more than 6500 ( !!! ) shots with my D200, working almost every day since I bought it on Dec. 15th. (Lucky me !)

I've noticed some very very faint banding in 3 ore 4 pictures at the very beginning - only in extremely dark areas. Since then, nothing. At all. Never came back again, I don't know what happened, but the "problem" (I could have been living with it) seems to be solved.

Strange...

Dude..................... 6500 clicks. You da-man!

JohnG

Edited on Jan 09, 2006 at 06:18 PM

Dec 30, 2005 at 02:01 AM


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