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Archive 2005 · DOF and Sensor Size
  
 
Phil Bonner
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p.5 #1 · DOF and Sensor Size


Why in the WORLD would anyone put a piece of lettuce in their camera?

Aug 13, 2005 at 07:08 PM
Tom_W
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p.5 #2 · DOF and Sensor Size


stevei wrote:
Imagemaster wrote:""Take a Mamiya 645 camera and take a photo. Now, without changing the lens, aperture, or lens-to-subject distance, put on a 35mm roll-film holder and take a second photo.""

But why would anybody do this? The two photos are different compositions, so any comparison between them is meaningless.


I agree - you'd either change the lens so that you frame the same image, or you'd move which would change the perspective. If the final image is different, then you're really not comparing things in the same situation. I certainly wouldn't use my various cameras in that manner.


Aug 13, 2005 at 07:29 PM
Tom_W
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p.5 #3 · DOF and Sensor Size


Phil Bonner wrote:
Why in the WORLD would anyone put a piece of lettuce in their camera?


Fiber.


Aug 13, 2005 at 07:30 PM
Jeff Donald
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p.5 #4 · DOF and Sensor Size


I’ll explain what I call the physics by use of an example. Let’s say we take a picture of a point with a 4x5inch camera and crop out a 6x7cm, 6x4.5cm, and a 35mm frame sizes. (If you like, consider all these formats with the same focal length lens, at the same aperture, and the same distance to the point). According to the applets that take into account format size, the DOF changes for each crop. Does this make sense? Of course not! It is the same point on the same piece of film. As such, it can’t be magnified any more for each format and still look like a point and not a disk. Thus, we can conclude that COC is not a function of format. This leaves DOF as a property of the lens and focusing distance(review the above equations).

Now take each piece of cut film and make an 8x10 print of each and view each print from 10 inches. The DOF will be different in each print because of the CoC. The original equations for determining DOF were from contact prints from 8x10 and 11x14 sheet film. Contact print a 35 mm negative and the entire image will look sharp. Enlarge the negative to 8x10 and DOF becomes apparent. View a B&W contact sheet of 35 mm negatives and try to judge sharpness when holding the sheet at 10 inches. It is almost impossible to pick out sharp frames under those conditions. The small size of the image and distance viewed from are beyond the limits of what the eye can resolve and the entire negative look sharp. Move the contact print closer and the eye can resolve detail and the eye will discern in focus and out of focus content.

Edited by Jeff Donald on Aug 13, 2005 at 03:41 PM GMT

Aug 13, 2005 at 07:32 PM
Imagemaster
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p.5 #5 · DOF and Sensor Size


stevei wrote:
Imagemaster wrote:Take a Mamiya 645 camera and take a photo. Now, without changing the lens, aperture, or lens-to-subject distance, put on a 35mm roll-film holder and take a second photo.

But why would anybody do this? The two photos are different compositions, so any comparison between them is meaningless.


They would do this to compare DOF on two different sizes of films. So what if they are two different compositions? I don't recall the original poster asking for any comparison on different compositions.

If someone asks you what the temperature of one liter of boiling water is compared to the temperature of two liters of boiling water, does it matter if the same pot is used for both tests.


Aug 13, 2005 at 07:36 PM
Imagemaster
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p.5 #6 · DOF and Sensor Size


Phil Bonner wrote:
Why in the WORLD would anyone put a piece of lettuce in their camera?


It tastes better than cabbage.


Aug 13, 2005 at 07:38 PM
stevei
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p.5 #7 · DOF and Sensor Size


Imagemaster wrote:
If someone asks you what the temperature of one liter of boiling water is compared to the temperature of two liters of boiling water, does it matter if the same pot is used for both tests.


We don't need an analogy, the matter being discussed is simple enough to understand as it is, your analogy just makes the subject harder to understand by not directly mirroring the subject being discussed.

The only reason someone might ask about DoF varying with sensor size is to understand the characteristics of different cameras with different sized sensors. For the same shot, with the same composition, you can achieve different DoF with a different sensor size. That's all there is to it.

Aug 13, 2005 at 08:02 PM
AJSJones
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p.5 #8 · DOF and Sensor Size


Imagemaster wrote
Take a Mamiya 645 camera and take a photo. Now, without changing the lens, aperture, or lens-to-subject distance, put on a 35mm roll-film holder and take a second photo. Now take your loupe and see if you can find greater or less DOF on the 645 film. Surprise, it is the same regardless of the change in film size.

The DOF was determined by the focal length of the lens, the aperture, and the lens-to-subject distance. I could put a piece of lettuce on the film plane and it would not change the DOF just ahead of that plane.



One last try and then I'm going to give up (sorta like evolution vs creation )


NO-ONE is saying that the piece of film cut from the 645 image is IN ANY WAY different from the 35mm film in your example above. If you think that's what they're saying, you have not been reading the posts.

[ BTW "Depth of Field" has nothing to do with the areas above or below film plane - there is another term Depth of Focus, but that is not what is under discussion here - Depth of field has to do with the plane of focus on the subject side of the lens]

Your example, however, allows me to ask you How YOU evaluate the DoF on those pieces of film? (Imagine you took a shot of a ruler on the ground in your yard ) You could look at the film- either one will do since they are identical - on a light box on the other side of the room (not likely that's how you'd do it) or on a light box a foot away from your eye, or with a 3x loupe or a 6x or 10x loupe. Let's say you find something that is *just* slightly less sharp than the object originally focused on - for example the mark for 36 1/4" on the ruler shot , where you focused on 36", is ever-so-slightly fuzzier with the 10x loupe and the 36 1/2" mark is even fuzzier. You will not see this difference in apparent sharpness if you don't use a loupe or if you use the 3x loupe. Perhaps with the 6x you could see it. This is because of the limitations of your eye so IT MATTERS WHICH LOUPE YOU CHOOSE when you try to decide which of the marks on the ruler appears as sharp as the sharpest one. This determines how much the image is magnified - just like we've been saying it matters how big you print and how far away you view it.

It is not until you *look* at the image somehow, that the concept of DoF has any meaning at all. You cannot define DoF without saying how you are going to *look* at the image....

Aug 13, 2005 at 08:49 PM
cineski
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p.5 #9 · DOF and Sensor Size


Does anyone one this thread actually remember how to actually take a picture?

Aug 13, 2005 at 10:06 PM
steve_t
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p.5 #10 · DOF and Sensor Size


cineski wrote:
Does anyone one this thread actually remember how to actually take a picture?


The problem seems to be people who can't remember making prints

The argument is pretty academic though. Nobody in their right mind uses the same lens at the same focal length and distance for the same subject on both a 35mm and 1.6 crop body.

Aug 13, 2005 at 10:27 PM
AJSJones
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p.5 #11 · DOF and Sensor Size


But some people like to be able to control all aspects of their shooting, so understanding DoF and its control are not academic, unless you accept what you get after having selected the other parameters...... We sort of assumed the OP wanted to understand the issue of DoF, but hey - perhaps they were just trolling

Aug 13, 2005 at 10:56 PM
Volleybob
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p.5 #12 · DOF and Sensor Size


Do this experiment.

1. Print photo
2. Observe DOF in photo (take notes if it will help you learn)
3. Take scissors and crop printed photo
4. Observe DOF in photo (compare notes)

Did DOF change? NO!
What changed? FIELD of VIEW changed.

If your cropped off half your model's face in step 3, you are SOL with your crop frame sensor. You must either change lens or move farther back.

Crop frame sensors are waste of glass. FF sensors are better.

Aug 13, 2005 at 11:15 PM
Jeff Donald
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p.5 #13 · DOF and Sensor Size


Do this experiment.

1. Print photo
2. Observe DOF in photo (take notes if it will help you learn)
3. Take scissors and crop printed photo
4. Observe DOF in photo (compare notes)

Did DOF change? NO!
What changed? FIELD of VIEW changed.

If your cropped off half your model's face in step 3, you are SOL with your crop frame sensor. You must either change lens or move farther back.

Crop frame sensors are waste of glass. FF sensors are better.


You have posted this repeatedly and many respondents have countered your inaccurate comparisons and illustrations. Nothing can be learned from your experiments. Did you read the link I've posted twice already to Van Walree's site? If not please take the time to do so and respond in an academic fashion that will contribute to the discussion. Your continued posting of the same meaningless thoughts and personal opinions are pointless.

Edited by Jeff Donald on Aug 13, 2005 at 07:26 PM GMT

Aug 13, 2005 at 11:25 PM
 



Doug Quance
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p.5 #14 · DOF and Sensor Size


Someone told me I should come over here to take a look...




You guys really are a riot - here in the Canon forum...






Aug 13, 2005 at 11:26 PM
steve_t
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p.5 #15 · DOF and Sensor Size


AJSJones wrote:
But some people like to be able to control all aspects of their shooting, so understanding DoF and its control are not academic, unless you accept what you get after having selected the other parameters...... We sort of assumed the OP wanted to understand the issue of DoF, but hey - perhaps they were just trolling


If you have, say, a 1.6 crop camera then you need to understand how DOF works with your lenses on that body, but you can't control the size of your sensor and there's no point worrying about comparative DOF with two completely differently framed shots.

You do however need to know that the larger you make a print the narrower DOF appears when viewed from a fixed distance, and that cropping an image and printing the cropped section out has a similar effect to making a large print.

Aug 13, 2005 at 11:53 PM
Imagemaster
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p.5 #16 · DOF and Sensor Size


This discussion has gotten out of my depth. I had better change my sensor size so I can increase my DOF.

Oh, but then what do I do if I want to decrease my DOF Gee, I guess I will have to have two cameras, each with a different sensor size.

No thanks, I'll just control DOF the old-fashioned way by either changing lenses, aperture, or subject-to-camera distance, or a combination of those.

Get real. How many people do you think look at photograph and say, "I wonder what sensor size he used to get that DOF."?

Aug 13, 2005 at 11:59 PM
EnCapture
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p.5 #17 · DOF and Sensor Size


Doug Quance wrote:
Someone told me I should come over here to take a look...




You guys really are a riot - here in the Canon forum where fools think crop factor affects DOF...






he said it not me This image is copyrighted by the owner

Edited by EnCapture on Aug 16, 2005 at 06:17 AM GMT

Aug 14, 2005 at 12:02 AM
steve_t
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p.5 #18 · DOF and Sensor Size


EnCapture wrote:
Doug Quance wrote:
Someone told me I should come over here to take a look...




You guys really are a riot - here in the Canon forum where fools think crop factor affect DOF...






he said it not me This image is copyrighted by the owner


But he's from the land of Nikon where they don't get a choice. Any CF you like providing it's 1.5

BTW: I note that "where fools think crop factor affect DOF" is NOT what the poster said, these are your own words and are not implied at all by his post.

Edited by steve_t on Aug 14, 2005 at 12:12 AM GMT

Aug 14, 2005 at 12:07 AM
Phil Bonner
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p.5 #19 · DOF and Sensor Size


Doug Quance wrote:
Someone told me I should come over here to take a look...
You guys really are a riot - here in the Canon forum...


Yea this thread is about as much fun as a bucket of maggots! Glad you are having fun!

Aug 14, 2005 at 12:08 AM
johnnymg
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p.5 #20 · DOF and Sensor Size


In less than 24 hours there are 10 pages of back-n-forth comments.

UNBELIEVABLE~~~~~~ ............ You guys are a riot!!!

BTW: I learned a LONG time ago that technical questions can NEVER be "resolved" on BB's.

Switch to landscapes and you won't care about short DOF. .
JohnG

Aug 14, 2005 at 12:08 AM
AJSJones
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p.5 #21 · DOF and Sensor Size


steve_t wrote:
AJSJones wrote:
But some people like to be able to control all aspects of their shooting, so understanding DoF and its control are not academic, unless you accept what you get after having selected the other parameters...... We sort of assumed the OP wanted to understand the issue of DoF, but hey - perhaps they were just trolling


If you have, say, a 1.6 crop camera then you need to understand how DOF works with your lenses on that body,

And if you print and view your pictures as assumed for the format the DoF scales were calculated for (e.g. 8x10 at a foot), you'll find the scales don't work right.

but you can't control the size of your sensor and there's no point worrying about comparative DOF with two completely differently framed shots.
Not sure anyone ever worried about that

You do however need to know that the larger you make a print the narrower DOF appears when viewed from a fixed distance, and that cropping an image and printing the cropped section out has a similar effect to making a large print.

I wish you could get imagemaster, encapture and nsbca to understand that part


Aug 14, 2005 at 12:10 AM
Jeff Donald
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p.5 #22 · DOF and Sensor Size


How many people do you think look at photograph and say, "I wonder what sensor size he used to get that DOF."?

The same number of people that have a limited knowledge of Depth of Field and all it's applied factors. The concepts of DOF and CoC are complex for most people. I'm sure it's the same for physicists that try to explain black holes to amateur astronomers. I teach photography at the college level and questions concerning DOF and CoC come up at the very least on a weekly basis.

When I need help on an issue of physics or math I discuss my concerns with my fellow colleagues. I approach them with an open mind, ready to learn and grasp the complex concepts we sometimes deal with. It is unfortunate that many of the posters in this thread don't take the time and approach the concepts of DOF with the same concerns and forethought.

The worse thing about the internet is the amount of falsehoods that go unchallenged.

Aug 14, 2005 at 12:47 AM
Volleybob
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p.5 #23 · DOF and Sensor Size


Jeff Donald wrote:
Do this experiment.

1. Print photo
2. Observe DOF in photo (take notes if it will help you learn)
3. Take scissors and crop printed photo
4. Observe DOF in photo (compare notes)

Did DOF change? NO!
What changed? FIELD of VIEW changed.

If your cropped off half your model's face in step 3, you are SOL with your crop frame sensor. You must either change lens or move farther back.

Crop frame sensors are waste of glass. FF sensors are better.


You have posted this repeatedly and many respondents have countered your inaccurate comparisons and illustrations. Nothing can be learned from your experiments. Did you read the link I've posted twice already to Van Walree's site? If not please take the time to do so and respond in an academic fashion that will contribute to the discussion. Your continued posting of the same meaningless thoughts and personal opinions are pointless.

Edited by Jeff Donald on Aug 13, 2005 at 07:26 PM GMT


My explanation is eloquent. It was intended as a thought experiment, but perhaps you should consider actually wasting the paper. You might learn something from it.

Aug 14, 2005 at 03:39 PM
slin100
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p.5 #24 · DOF and Sensor Size


Volleybob wrote:
Do this experiment.

1. Print photo
2. Observe DOF in photo (take notes if it will help you learn)
3. Take scissors and crop printed photo

3.5 Rescale cropped photo up to same size as original photo

4. Observe DOF in photo (compare notes)

Did DOF change? NO!

YES! That's the point we've been trying to make: print size must be fixed. No one is disputing your original experiment.

Now, if you can't see a change in DOF, then we are truly at an impasse. Neither mathematical nor empiricial evidence can sway you.

Aug 14, 2005 at 04:12 PM
Volleybob
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p.5 #25 · DOF and Sensor Size


Adding CoC, scaling, viewing distance to discussion complicates subject beyond grasp of newbie.

Sensor size only changes FoV. Yes, FoV can be traded for shallower DoF, just move the camera closer. Oops! now you've changed the perspective...

Aug 14, 2005 at 05:34 PM




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