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Archive 2017 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?

  
 
Mark_EL
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Fotografpaul wrote

Yeah that's t0.5 time. at 33% on the B outlet 172 Ws. Sirios if im not misstaken is only listing the fastest flash duration at it's lowest and max. Which is at its lowest at t0.5 is 1/11300 BUT that is at 2 Ws.. :-)

Maybe prices in Netherlands is cheaper on broncolor, but 2 Sirios 400L equals 4 575 EURO a ELB 1200 kit with actionhead equals 3 583 EURO so about 1000 EURO difference here in Sweden. ELB 1200 still has a lot more power and features.


You have to look at the Siros 400S, not the Siros 400L

Anyway I was thinking the same thing until recently someone (a Broncolor ambassador) pointed out to me that in the Siros brochure they wrote down the cuts-off times of the Siros in Speedmode at all power levels, t0.1 times too... and they look pretty sweet:

https://www.bron.ch/uploads/tx_bronproducts/Bron_Prospekt_Siros_2016_EN_02.pdf (just scroll down to page 21)

In the Netherlands I can buy a Siros 400S head for € 1402,39 or a 800S for € 1716,99. Those prices are 21% VAT included.

Mind you, I've always been a fan of Elinchrom flash gear and like I said I would love to get my hands on an ELB1200. But € 3400,- for one pack + one head is just too much for me, since I mostly use them in the studio. I also realise its not really fair to compare a 230V Siros strobe to a battery packed system. But the thing is, Elinchrom does not have anything in its range to compete with the Siros. Yes the ELC PRO 500 is a lot cheaper, but is not near as fast when we're talking flash duration. The shortest flash duration is what, 1/5000 t0.5... Which is about 1/1600 t0.1 time. just compare that to the Siros 400S.... But on the other hand, the ELC series have too short flash durations to be able to use Hi-Sync. So its basically a little bit of nothing to me. Same goes for the BRX series. A couple of months ago, one of my D-Lite 400s died. (this was one of the old, non RX versions, bought them in 2009). I had to buy a D-Lite again instead of something more high-end, just because the cheap strobes are the only ones suitable for Hi-Sync



Dec 15, 2017 at 04:36 AM
Fotografpaul
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
You have to look at the Siros 400S, not the Siros 400L


Ah i thought you where referring to the L as we are talking about the ELB.

Mark_EL wrote:
Anyway I was thinking the same thing until recently someone (a Broncolor ambassador) pointed out to me that in the Siros brochure they wrote down the cuts-off times of the Siros in Speedmode at all power levels, t0.1 times too... and they look pretty sweet:


Yes they are cheaper than the L, but the flash duration stated (t.05) at 100 Ws is 1/6000 in speed mode. Compared to the ELB 1200 which has t0.5 1/8850 at 176 Ws.


Mark_EL wrote:
In the Netherlands I can buy a Siros 400S head for € 1402,39 or a 800S for € 1716,99. Those prices are 21% VAT included.


Seems to be about the same in Sweden (give or take 100euro) including VAT.

Broncolor have some really nice products, but for flash duration they are bested by Hensel, pretty much all are.

Im a tad over the tube design, though their design offers the option to expose the recessed tube. Which is great, a choice Profoto should offer their users.

Mark_EL wrote:
Mind you, I've always been a fan of Elinchrom flash gear and like I said I would love to get my hands on an ELB1200. But € 3400,- for one pack + one head is just too much for me, since I mostly use them in the studio. I also realise its not really fair to compare a 230V Siros strobe to a battery packed system. But the thing is, Elinchrom does not have anything in its range to compete with the Siros. Yes the ELC PRO 500 is a lot cheaper, but is not near as fast when we're
...Show more

Yes the ELB 1200 isn't free, but neither are Broncolor equivalent so in that comparison ELB 1200 wins quite easily IMHO.

For short flash duration freezing droplets, no they do not have a compact comparable. (right now) Then again if that's your speciality the broncolor falls short compared Hensel CITO-500 which is made for that purpose. But you might want to look a couple of times on the price tag of the Hensel unit... :-)

Again if your talking about freezing droplets alone the ELC (1000) isn't the best bet. But for general purpose shooting the ELC are great units, including freezing "normal" action including people moving etc.

For me Elinchrom has the most complete lineup from entry level to pro, which allows users to buy into an ecosystem and grow. That is something both Profoto and Broncolor lacks, and even though profoto has gone the TTL route and somewhat catered to people who do not shoot in studios with their packs, they still lack that entry-level model to get people into their system.

For you who shoots HS, you can buy dirty cheap D-lites RX4 that will do quite well due to it's longer flash duration, im not sure i would see that as negative.

Also 2018 will be an exciting year for Elinchrom shooters..




Edited on Dec 15, 2017 at 12:03 PM · View previous versions



Dec 15, 2017 at 08:08 AM
MayaTlab
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Fotografpaul wrote:
Also 2018 will be an exciting year for Elinchrom shooters..


Exciting as in... newer RX models with a LED modelling light and the option for a frosted glass dome ?




Dec 15, 2017 at 08:32 AM
Fotografpaul
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


MayaTlab wrote:
Exciting as in... newer RX models with a LED modelling light and the option for a frosted glass dome ?



Exciting as in I can't say more than that... :-)

The Frosted Glass dome is already available for the ELC.



Dec 15, 2017 at 10:23 AM
Mark_EL
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Fotografpaul wrote

Yes they are cheaper than the L, but the flash duration stated (t.05) at 100 Ws is 1/6000 in speed mode. Compared to the ELB 1200 which has t0.5 1/8850 at 176 Ws.


I just took another look at the cut-off times as stated in that Broncolor brochure... Something seems odd to me. I always learned that the t0.1 time is about one third of the t0.5 time. Therefor you have to divide the t0.5 time by three to roughtly calculate the t0.1 time. According to the Broncolor brochure though the t0.1 time @ 100Ws is 1/4000 and the t0.5 time is 1/6000.... that doesn't add up, does it

Fotografpaul wrote
Broncolor have some really nice products, but for flash duration they are bested by Hensel, pretty much all are.


I must say I have no knowledge about the Hensel product line. I am familiar with the brand name but thats about it.

Fotografpaul wrote
Im a tad over the tube design, though their design offers the option to expose the recessed tube. Which is great, a choice Profoto should offer their users.


Agreed. I have no personal experience with Profoto lights but I can imagine that the light travels more in a forward direction due to its design, and thus giving a hotspot in the middle of a soft box. Just like a speedlite does basically...

Fotografpaul wrote

For short flash duration freezing droplets, no they do not have a compact comparable. (right now) Then again if that's your speciality the broncolor falls short compared Hensel CITO-500 which is made for that purpose. But you might want to look a couple of times on the price tag of the Hensel unit... :-)


Just checked the price of that Hensel... No thank you

Fotografpaul wrote
Again if your talking about freezing droplets alone the ELC (1000) isn't the best bet. But for general purpose shooting the ELC are great units, including freezing "normal" action including people moving etc.

For me Elinchrom has the most complete lineup from entry level to pro, which allows users to buy into an ecosystem and grow. That is something both Profoto and Broncolor lacks, and even though profoto has gone the TTL route and somewhat catered to people who do not shoot in studios with their packs, they still lack that entry-level model to get people into their system.

For you
...Show more

In general I agree with you here. Like I said, I've been a fan of Elinchrom gear since I started out with studio strobes in 2009. And I don't mind at all using Hi-Sync to freeze water droplets etc. Even though it sometimes takes me a bit more time in post to get rid of the unwanted gradients. I can deal with that However I would like to upgrade my D-Lites to something with a bit better build quality. Especially talking about the mount for the light modifiers here. The mount of the D-Lites always feels a lot more flimsy compared to the the Quadra adaptor for example, which is basically the same as the mount of the BRX and ELC strobes. Yes the D-Lites are pretty affordable so you get what you pay for. Which is fine. But I would like something a bit better build, but with the option to use hi-sync and thats just not possible at this moment....

Fotografpaul wrote
Also 2018 will be an exciting year for Elinchrom shooters..


Well you know what I am hoping for



Dec 15, 2017 at 12:56 PM
MayaTlab
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
Agreed. I have no personal experience with Profoto lights but I can imagine that the light travels more in a forward direction due to its design, and thus giving a hotspot in the middle of a soft box. Just like a speedlite does basically...


I don't know how Profoto comes up with their beam angle specs but I don't think that they accurately represent how their lights' recessed designs project light. In the spec sheets they say that it's around 70-77°, but there is the specification sheet, and then reality :



I don't use a lot of soft boxes but in a small 75cm octabox from Broncolor, with rather dense diffusers, there is no difference with an exposed bulb. But in a 30x120 there is a difference between their recessed heads and their exposed heads. In modifiers which rely most on the flash tube lighting sideways (Beauty dishes, for example), I find the recessed tube plain rubbish.

That said, a lot of presumably exposed tubes are in fact pretty much recessed in reality once you modify them in a certain way. That, for example, is what AD600 users found out when they used Bowens' rather deep speedrings, which were designed to accommodate Bowens' lights, which flash tube is way far ahead of the mount, unlike the AD600's. Lately a range for shallower S mount speedrings have been released to accommodate Chinese S-mount designs, which in general position the flash tube closer to the mount.

Mark_EL wrote:
In general I agree with you here. Like I said, I've been a fan of Elinchrom gear since I started out with studio strobes in 2009. And I don't mind at all using Hi-Sync to freeze water droplets etc. Even though it sometimes takes me a bit more time in post to get rid of the unwanted gradients. I can deal with that However I would like to upgrade my D-Lites to something with a bit better build quality. Especially talking about the mount for the light modifiers here. The mount of the D-Lites always feels a lot more
...Show more

The RX one is what I'm most jealous of in Elinchrom's lineup : a cheap, AC powered, low power, no frills light that I can put in my backpack ! As Paul wrote Profoto and Broncolor have no answer to that. I'm even more jealous of the Digibees and Honey Badger because of the LED modelling lamp.
But as you wrote I too am not too thrilled about some of it build quality and operational aspects.



Dec 15, 2017 at 01:38 PM
ZoranC
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Fotografpaul wrote:
Also 2018 will be an exciting year for Elinchrom shooters..


Hint x2, huh?



Dec 15, 2017 at 04:08 PM
ZoranC
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
Oke, I did a test in my studio space. I am not going to post all the test shots since I took about 80 images....

But I examined my results and came to the following conclusions....

At a shutter speed of 1/250, ODS settings have no influence. Hence, its not needed to change the ODS.
At a shutter speed of 1/500, the best result is at an ODS of 1.5 or 1.6ms.
At a shutter speed of 1/1000, the best result is at an ODS of 0.8 or 0.9ms.
At a shutter speed of 1/2000, the best result is at an ODS of 0.5
...Show more

I contacted Elinchrom US about this and they say "We tried a couple of the ODS settings, but found that the best results were when it was off. " Any comments on that?




Dec 16, 2017 at 02:03 AM
Mark_EL
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


ZoranC wrote:
I contacted Elinchrom US about this and they say "We tried a couple of the ODS settings, but found that the best results were when it was off. " Any comments on that?



I guess it depends on which shutter speed they tried.... If they only tried @ 1/8000 I can -sort of- understand this answer. If they also tried at 1/500 for example, they should get there eyes checked

This is @ 1/500, ODS OFF:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4551/38375117704_6d91d20367_o.jpg

This is @ 1/500, ODS 1.0:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4639/38375117804_2c9baa8ef6_o.jpg

This is @ 1/500, ODS 1.5:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4594/24223852287_c390eb13db_o.jpg


You take your pic


@ 1/1000, ODS OFF:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4568/38203460675_5404c5c4af_o.jpg

@ 1/000, ODS 0.3:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4691/24223855097_607a495a7e_o.jpg


If you don't want the hassle of changing the ODS settings in the field during shoots then I would advise you to put the ODS on 0.4 and just leave it there. Or, put it even a bit higher higher even like 0.6. In the worst case scenario you will get a small black bar at the top of your image which you can crop easily. You only have to take that crop in account when you're framing your shot. And besides, if you are only using the flash as a fill you'll probably not even notice any black bar at all, because in general that part of your image will not be lid by your flash anyway.



Dec 16, 2017 at 03:59 AM
ZoranC
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
I guess it depends on which shutter speed they tried.... If they only tried @ 1/8000 I can -sort of- understand this answer.


Thank you again, that is a great question! I will have to follow up on it with them, especially after my unit arrives and I try it myself.




Dec 16, 2017 at 12:56 PM
Daan B
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Fotografpaul wrote:
Yes you can, and more will come...can't say more than 2018 will be an exciting year. :-)


HSS? TTL?






Dec 16, 2017 at 05:43 PM
ZoranC
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


ZoranC wrote:
Thank you again, that is a great question! I will have to follow up on it with them, especially after my unit arrives and I try it myself.


Elinchrom tech support got back to me and said "I bounced around mostly from 1/1000 to 1/4000. Not too much at 1/8000 since that speed admits so little of the flash"



Dec 19, 2017 at 12:30 AM
hannes
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


has anyone played with camera flash settings ?


Dec 20, 2017 at 05:36 AM
ZoranC
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


hannes wrote:
has anyone played with camera flash settings ?


... as in ...?



Dec 20, 2017 at 02:17 PM
Mark_EL
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


I don't get it either


Dec 20, 2017 at 03:21 PM
ZoranC
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
But I examined my results and came to the following conclusions....

At a shutter speed of 1/250, ODS settings have no influence. Hence, its not needed to change the ODS.
At a shutter speed of 1/500, the best result is at an ODS of 1.5 or 1.6ms.
At a shutter speed of 1/1000, the best result is at an ODS of 0.8 or 0.9ms.
At a shutter speed of 1/2000, the best result is at an ODS of 0.5 or 0.6ms
At a shutter speed of 1/4000, the best result is at an ODS of 0.3 or 0.4ms
At a shutter speed of 1/8000, the
...Show more

My ELB-400 arrived and I've played a little bit with it. After some casual shooting I can see how one _can_ take a shot with ODS off and not have gradient noticeable enough to ruin it, especially once it gets "masked" by uneven environment light, lens vignette, light positioning, modifier, and creative techniques, _HOWEVER_ that does _NOT_ mean 'off' was the best setting for ODS.

Test shots I did in less casual and more controlled manner confirm to me there _IS_, just like you said, an observable difference between ODS off and ODS set to optimal value so I don't have an explanation why Elinchrom tech support person said ODS 'off' worked best for him at all shutter speeds unless he used Nikon, and not Sony, for his testing (I hear Nikon out of the box does not need any ODS tuning).

I did not have time to test all shutter speeds across all power levels so my first round of tests was at 1/500 because your tests showed that speed would require biggest adjustment.

I tested it at power levels 6.0, 5.0, 4.0 and 3.0 and, just like you said, optimal ODS adjustment remained same across those power levels even though I could almost swear I have read somewhere that amount of ODS adjustment depends on power level of the flash.

Not having enough experience to judge best ODS setting based on look of file I judged it based on histogram. One with ODS setting I judged optimal was noticeably farther to the right. Which makes sense, whole point of being able to adjust ODS is so you can fine tune your flash and camera combo, it is just that I was thinking manufacturer would out of the box minimize the need for that, way it is with Nikon.

That is where some difference between your findings and mine starts. At 1/500 shutter speed best ODS setting for you was 1.5. For me it was, If I am correct in my judging, 2.0. _However_ that was with my transmitter/receiver set for "speed", not "normal" mode (I figured reducing anything that delays triggering helps). When I changed them to "normal" it was getting closer to your value but not completely.

Which makes me ask what are yours set at and if they are at "normal" what would be your optimal value when changed to "speed"?

Also, based on values you posted it seems that there is direct linear correlation between shutter speed and ODS value. It seems every time shutter speed doubles optimal ODS value halves. Do you see any logical technical explanation for it? If yes it might help explain why it is shutter speed related rather than always same value, and also help qucikly establish approximate optimal setting for any shutter speed.

And speaking of testing for gradation and best ODS setting what you would recommend as most reliable & foolproof way to test for them?



Dec 27, 2017 at 11:40 PM
Mark_EL
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


ZoranC wrote:
My ELB-400 arrived and I've played a little bit with it. After some casual shooting I can see how one _can_ take a shot with ODS off and not have gradient noticeable enough to ruin it, especially once it gets "masked" by uneven environment light, lens vignette, light positioning, modifier, and creative techniques, _HOWEVER_ that does _NOT_ mean 'off' was the best setting for ODS.


Yep, exactly as I said before. In most circumstances (like outdoors) you will not ever really notice the gradient. Only when shooting stuff like I do in the studio it will give a noticeable gradient sometimes, which has to be corrected in post. And even then, its not that big of a deal.

Just to give an example. This is the SOOC shot of a splash that I used:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4597/38473822115_90f4dc69ff_o.jpg


as a base shot to make this final image:


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4687/39351206731_aca5a4ea5d_o.jpg


I took this shot with my Canon 5DIII by the way, at 1/3200 shutter speed. And I am not even sure I dialed in the optimal ODS setting when shooting the splashes...


ZoranC wrote
That is where some difference between your findings and mine starts. At 1/500 shutter speed best ODS setting for you was 1.5. For me it was, If I am correct in my judging, 2.0. _However_ that was with my transmitter/receiver set for "speed", not "normal" mode (I figured reducing anything that delays triggering helps). When I changed them to "normal" it was getting closer to your value but not completely.

Which makes me ask what are yours set at and if they are at "normal" what would be your optimal value when changed to "speed"?


I have never used the "speed" setting, so I wouldn't know if this makes any difference...


ZoranC wrote
Also, based on values you posted it seems that there is direct linear correlation between shutter speed and ODS value. It seems every time shutter speed doubles optimal ODS value halves. Do you see any logical technical explanation for it? If yes it might help explain why it is shutter speed related rather than always same value, and also help qucikly establish approximate optimal setting for any shutter speed.


I have absolutely no explanation for this. Thats beyond my technical expertise

ZoranC wrote
And speaking of testing for gradation and best ODS setting what you would recommend as most reliable & foolproof way to test for them?


I think the best way to test this, is the way that I did it. I just shot at an empty wall (in my case, a grey studio wall) while shooting tethered, and then eye balling it



Dec 28, 2017 at 09:53 AM
ZoranC
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
Just to give an example. This is the SOOC shot of a splash that I used:
...
as a base shot to make this final image:
...


Beautiful work! I prefer not having to deal with things (less work, less chance things can go wrong, ...) but in the absence of no issues at all I can accept something that is realtively easy to deal with. One thing I know is that HSS is just not cutting it for me and now that I got a taste of Hi-Sync I don't see myself going back if I can help it.

Mark_EL wrote:
I have never used the "speed" setting, so I wouldn't know if this makes any difference...


Would you mind, please, testing ODS 1.5, 1.8, 2.0, and 2.2 at 1/500 with "speed" setting and letting me know do you too feel that setting changes what is optimal ODS value, and if yes what is your new optimal value? If it does change the value that to me indicates using it allows for better control over timing. And if that value is now 2.0, like I believe mine is, that to me not just confirms that optimal ODS value does not seem to be power level related but also indicates it does not seem to change as bulb ages (mine is practically brand new, yours I assume had fair number of pops by now).

Mark_EL wrote:
I think the best way to test this, is the way that I did it. I just shot at an empty wall (in my case, a grey studio wall) while shooting tethered, and then eye balling it


I too am testing it against the wall and eye balling it but I am not sure am I doing it right. What I mean is, first I don't know should I test it bare or with modifier. I did it bare because I am suspecting any modifier will influence what file will look like. Next, I am not sure am I positioning flash right distance wise. I am eyeballing it adjusting distance until I feel light covers wall top to bottom. And last I am not sure am I choosing framing right, I am guessing it should be no wider nor tighter than that wall I am trying to illuminate evenly. Any thoughts/advice in this regard?



Dec 28, 2017 at 04:15 PM
Mark_EL
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


ZoranC wrote:
Would you mind, please, testing ODS 1.5, 1.8, 2.0, and 2.2 at 1/500 with "speed" setting and letting me know do you too feel that setting changes what is optimal ODS value, and if yes what is your new optimal value? If it does change the value that to me indicates using it allows for better control over timing. And if that value is now 2.0, like I believe mine is, that to me not just confirms that optimal ODS value does not seem to be power level related but also indicates it does not seem to change as bulb
...Show more

My bulbs are not that old, nor are they used that much. (in my studio, I use my D-Lites the most). But I don't think it makes any difference anyway. Right now I don't have time to take tests in speed mode but I'll see if I can do some next year


ZoranC wrote
I too am testing it against the wall and eye balling it but I am not sure am I doing it right. What I mean is, first I don't know should I test it bare or with modifier. I did it bare because I am suspecting any modifier will influence what file will look like. Next, I am not sure am I positioning flash right distance wise. I am eyeballing it adjusting distance until I feel light covers wall top to bottom. And last I am not sure am I choosing framing right, I am guessing it should be no
...Show more

I don't think the chosen light modifier makes any difference. Sure the maximum power output will be influenced, but that will not change the evenness of the light distribution.

I think it's rather simple. Shoot against a wall and point the flash straight on the wall too, right above the camera. Off course the distance will influence the maximum power you will get from it, but that doesn't mater because the only thing you want to find out is the evenness of the light distribution, is it not?



Dec 28, 2017 at 05:41 PM
ZoranC
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Hi-Sync with Elinchrom ELB-400 and Sony A7RII?


Mark_EL wrote:
Right now I don't have time to take tests in speed mode but I'll see if I can do some next year


Thank you in advance, whenever it might be

Mark_EL wrote:
I don't think the chosen light modifier makes any difference. Sure the maximum power output will be influenced, but that will not change the evenness of the light distribution.


I am not saying light modifier will change evenness of the light distribution but I am suspecting/speculating that in a way it might hide it / make it less noticeable to inexperienced eyes. Picture I have in mind when I think about is what grids / flags / barn doors do.



Dec 28, 2017 at 05:57 PM
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