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Which path forward? for Me?
Limp on - Switch when 5dsr v2 arrives
Move to Adobe bridge / Photoshop / Manual file System
Swith to Light Room - you will like it after a few months
Other - Solution

Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?
  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Thanks all for the great feedback. I think I am going to try Dxolabs with a standard file system and see what how it works a bit.

I just don't like the idea of converting (and losing all my non destructive edits) and then being at risk of doing it again.

Its not about the price, or the price risk, its about not being burned again - like I was with apple.



Dec 12, 2017 at 03:52 AM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
I know I can convert to dng and import but my past experience is that is painful.


Don't know what you find so painful about it. I just batch convert my Nikon RAW files to DNG (with original RAW file embedded) while I have a coffee. Open them in CS6 and work on them.

As for cataloging, after Extensis Portfolio shafted their early adopters, I now just use my Mac's Finder > File > Find to locate any image by the Tags that I assign to every image. Mind you, it will take you forever to tag all your images.







Edited on Dec 12, 2017 at 03:58 AM · View previous versions



Dec 12, 2017 at 03:54 AM
stanj
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


As a founding member of the original Aperture team, I have moved to LR the moment it came out. I never used LR for its library function, I still use my own piece of software for that (not something commercially available), but I do import the selects into LR and process them there.

The problem with LR is the performance - the library module and also the develop module, which is nothing short of brain dead. I know a bit or two about writing image processing software, and the way the use - or don't use - the computer's resources is nothing short of baffling. So when new LR CC 2018 came out and was allegedly all about performance, I was not very much surprised to see that with the very first picture that I tried I managed to basically hang LR (to the point of it not being responsive to any user input for 30s on a modern iMac 5K). Given that I can reproduce this with basically any image you throw at me, I have more or less given up hope and have since then tried to find a solution.

The problem with everything else that I've seen is the user interface, it's as if it were written by people who want to make it complicated. Also, the library function in other apps - as little as I depend on it given that most of my sorting happens in my own app - is very lacking, to put it mildly.

The landscape is pretty hopeless for it being almost 2018, if you ask me.



Dec 12, 2017 at 03:57 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Imagemaster wrote:
Don't know what you find so painful about it. I just batch convert my Nikon RAW files to DNG (with original RAW file embedded) while I have a coffee. Open them in CS6 and work on them.

As for cataloging, after Extensis Portfolio shafted their early adopters, I now just use my Mac's Finder > File > Find to locate any image by the Tags that I assign to every image. Mind you, it will take you forever to tag all your images.


Most of my extensive landscape work involves first running photomatix, then importing, then pruning to the ones I want to work on, then photoshop and blending as needed. If I add dng conversion on top of that I will have to go for multiple coffees and a nap and .. - next day ready.



Dec 12, 2017 at 04:06 AM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
Most of my extensive landscape work involves first running photomatix, then importing, then pruning to the ones I want to work on, then photoshop and blending as needed. If I add dng conversion on top of that I will have to go for multiple coffees and a nap and .. - next day ready.


Your problem for feeling the need to use HDR software for landscape work I guess.

That probably takes a lot more time than DNG conversion which you can do first. Convert hundreds of images in minutes.



Dec 12, 2017 at 04:36 AM
dolina
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Hi Scott,

If I read this correctly your concern is that Apple's Digital Camera RAW Compatibility Update wont work with Aperture?

It should still work unless Apple rewrote how RAW Compatibility Update works specific to Apple Photos (not iPhoto).

I would be more worried about Apple Aperture compatibility with future macOS versions.



Dec 12, 2017 at 04:50 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


dolina wrote:
Hi Scott,

If I read this correctly your concern is that Apple's Digital Camera RAW Compatibility Update wont work with Aperture?

It should still work unless Apple rewrote how RAW Compatibility Update works specific to Apple Photos (not iPhoto).

I would be more worried about Apple Aperture compatibility with future macOS versions.


What I thought I understood is that aperture does not auto convert raw 5div and later cameras - thus at some point when I buy a new camera, which is likely next year, I would have to convert to dng before importing to aperture. And it feels like eventually aperture will not work - how long would apple support a product that they are not selling anymore.



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:07 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


stanj wrote:
As a founding member of the original Aperture team, I have moved to LR the moment it came out. I never used LR for its library function, I still use my own piece of software for that (not something commercially available), but I do import the selects into LR and process them there.

The problem with LR is the performance - the library module and also the develop module, which is nothing short of brain dead. I know a bit or two about writing image processing software, and the way the use - or don't use - the computer's resources
...Show more

I am surprised that you moved to LR given the deficiencies. You are not using for managing files and photoshop is more powerful than lightroom.



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:12 AM
stanj
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
I am surprised that you moved to LR given the deficiencies. You are not using for managing files and photoshop is more powerful than lightroom.


I'm sure it is. You've also heard me complaining about every other application's user interface. In that regard, PS makes DXO or C1 look like pure bliss



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:39 AM
dolina
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
What I thought I understood is that aperture does not auto convert raw 5div and later cameras - thus at some point when I buy a new camera, which is likely next year, I would have to convert to dng before importing to aperture. And it feels like eventually aperture will not work - how long would apple support a product that they are not selling anymore.


I am unaware of this as the latest cameras that I use are the 5Ds R and a7R II.

If true then no choice but to convert. But I think Apple Photos should be able to do this in batches?



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:49 AM
 

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charlyw
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


stanj wrote:
I'm sure it is. You've also heard me complaining about every other application's user interface. In that regard, PS makes DXO or C1 look like pure bliss


Could it be that you are still stuck in the way Aperture (you are more heavily invested in than anyone else here) does some things and thus never adapted to the new software properly. Every software that implements a workflow will have ways of guiding/enforcing that workflow. Work against it and youíll never get the new software to work for you.

As for the performance issues that LR previously had, they were mainly located in the import/culling workflow and the library/develop transistion - both things you will hardly have any experience in and thus are ill qualified to comment on because you donít really use the corresponding parts. I am wondering what you throw at LR to make it hang, not even several panorama calculations while contuing to cull and import do slow it down much on the GUI...



Dec 12, 2017 at 06:29 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


I tried dxolab last night and as stanj expressed - its makes LR interface look good. I will try it again but it does not pass files to photoshop well and it has menus on top of menus all over the place.

My first impression was not favorable. It might be a good raw converter but it does not seem like a good (intuitive) file manager.



Dec 12, 2017 at 02:41 PM
DES-1
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


I'm baffled as to why people think that Lightroom and Photoshop compete. They have a degree of integration and LR users can jump to PS any time during an edit when the tools are lacking.

Lightroom is more about cataloging and workflow and as far as I'm concerned the editing tools are good enough for most adjustments as they are handy and easy to use. Also, LR edits are non-destructive and you can revert back to the original or make a virtual copy. LR is made to engage PS if you need it's capabiities.

Once an image is brought in via LR and is in develop mode, PS is 1 command away, with or without LR edits, and when you are done in PS, 2 quick commands get you back to LR with the PS changes recorded.

I think LR+PS is good enough for most hobbyists and no doubt for some/many pros. If you make your living by volume of images tweaked, you'll probably want to customize your workflow anyway, to a bare minimum toolset and optimize for speed.




Dec 12, 2017 at 02:52 PM
Jeff
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
I like it - I am familiar with it and for me its intuitive - likely because I grew with it. But its daunting that I would have to convert to light room or bridge or something. I tried LR last week and it felt like an akward version of aperture - it was not pleasant. And now adobe is going for this cloud crap. Try putting 10tb on the cloud. So I am worried about putting another years effort into a proprietary file system..And my noodling with LR - it does not let you move the files outside
...Show more

I started with Aperture and very much like some of the tools and interface, but did move to Lightroom at v2. It's turned out to be the biggest single 'upgrade' to my workflow process in decades. It has allowed me to have a logical cataloging system that is easy to manage and back up, while relieving me of the 3 or 4 additional programs I used to have to use to do all that I needed to do.

Do I have gripes about it? I absolutely do, but as a working pro I need things to be as organized and efficient as possible, and there really is no other software solution out there that allows you to manage your assets as effectively as LR. I long for Adobe to implement a real-time Loupe for quickly magnifying a portion of an image to 1:1 for checking sharpness, but other than that there is little that I can recall missing from Aperture (and I certainly don't miss their re-naming of common photographic tools to put their own spin to the photo-editing ecosystem).

As far as integration with PS goes, moving images into PS to work with complex masks and layers is very seamless, and LR allows access to the original file (as well as cataloging), or allows you to copy it and non-destructively tweak it. Once you learn the ins and outs of the Library module, it really is a convenient way to manage your files however you want, all the while keeping track of every change or move that you make.

Lastly, the mobile implementation is not something you have to use, and LR CC 'Classic' is what you want. Bridge obviously comes with the LR/PS package, and I do admittedly still use it for complex renaming tasks (since LR's tool is only marginally capable). Forget about the $10/mo and just buy it yearly.

As Nike says, just do it.

Chris Court wrote:
I don't have a good answer to your question except to suggest Lightroom, which I am loath to do, not because the software is bad (it's not), but due to Adobe's push to a subscription-only business model.


For years I was incensed at the new model of taking my money incrementally in small amounts, as it seems the new way for companies to make 'extra' cash these days. That being said, I finally (last week) ponied up for CC, and am glad I did. Having current versions of both LR and PS would typically cost me no more than this, but I've always limped along with old versions of PS until it had something I really needed. The difference in cash outlay is actually minimal.

A little bummed about LR CC Classic's performance, but I'm sure they'll fix some of it in an update. The new range masking feature is fantastic, a tool I've needed for a long time.



Dec 12, 2017 at 03:46 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


dolina wrote:
I am unaware of this as the latest cameras that I use are the 5Ds R and a7R II.

If true then no choice but to convert. But I think Apple Photos should be able to do this in batches?


You are going to have the same problem as me:
1) To continue using aperture you will need to convert your raws to dng raws if it does not support 5dsr 2 for example
2) My experience with DNG converted raws is that photomatix does not like them
3) Eventually aperture will fail - they can't keep a dead system forever
4) To convert your existing system you will lose the non destructive edits. You can export them (the equivalent of flattening in photoshop) and import the end product but then you can't go back with sliders.
5) To convert you need to relocate the masters. in aperture to get them out of their tome
5) so the longer you wait the more work you will have to do when aperture fails (obsolencence for you).




Dec 12, 2017 at 04:59 PM
dolina
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
You are going to have the same problem as me:
1) To continue using aperture you will need to convert your raws to dng raws if it does not support 5dsr 2 for example
2) My experience with DNG converted raws is that photomatix does not like them
3) Eventually aperture will fail - they can't keep a dead system forever
4) To convert your existing system you will lose the non destructive edits. You can export them (the equivalent of flattening in photoshop) and import the end product but then you can't go back with sliders.
5) To convert you need to relocate
...Show more

1) You could test RAW compatibility now by asking someone on FM to email you a RAW file from a 2017 camera. Aperture fails to read it then your assumption for the 2018 & future cameras will hold true.

3) Some artists keep their Macs static without upgrading for specific applications as it just "works" for them. That's why there are some printing presses that still uses macOS 9 with Quark as there isnt really a business reason to upgrade.

In my case I have a late 2012 27-inch iMac Core i7 with a broken Fusion Drive as the HDD failed. I've split it and I'm running it on the SSD. I am considering upgrading to a 12TB Fusion Drive or RAID 0 two 1TB Samsung SSD for 1,000MB/s read and writes so it's useful until the newest macOS stops supporting it.

But today Apple announced pre-orders for the 2018 iMac Pro Xeon with a starting price of $4,999. As my iMac is hitting it's 5th year on February I am tempted to do that instead.




Dec 12, 2017 at 05:26 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


dolina wrote:
1) You could test RAW compatibility now by asking someone on FM to email you a RAW file from a 2017 camera. Aperture fails to read it then your assumption for the 2018 & future cameras will hold true.

3) Some artists keep their Macs static without upgrading for specific applications as it just "works" for them. That's why there are some printing presses that still uses macOS 9 with Quark as there isnt really a business reason to upgrade.

In my case I have a late 2012 27-inch iMac Core i7 with a failed Fusion Drive as the HDD failed. I
...Show more



Can someone on the forum confirm that 5div or D850 raws don't convert in aperture -- please? Or send me a link to a 5div raw to play with.?



[even if they do, you will still trip on something going forward. They won't support it forever.

And the risk is that at some point the file tomes (you have to right click to find the files underneath) may become unreadable]




Dec 12, 2017 at 05:36 PM
dolina
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Scott Stoness wrote:
Can someone on the forum confirm that 5div or D850 raws don't convert in aperture -- please? Or send me a link to a 5div raw to play with.?

[even if they do, you will still trip on something going forward. They won't support it forever.

And the risk is that at some point the file tomes (you have to right click to find the files underneath) may become unreadable]



They actually ceased doing point releases for Aperture for over 3 years and 2 months already.



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:39 PM
oguruma
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


Jeff wrote:
The difference in cash outlay is actually minimal.



Yeah, for now.... I don't have a problem with $10/month, but who knows how long it will only be $10?

What I would really like is a perpetual license for the core functionality, and PAYG pricing for support for new cameras and new features. So, say you can buy the license for $150, but if you buy a new camera in a couple years, you have to pony up $25.... Of course, this way, Adobe can't monetize people that are happy with the product the way it is, and don't upgrade their cameras often... And it's much harder to double the price overnight, like they can with the SaaS model.



Dec 12, 2017 at 05:40 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Aperture on its Last Leg - Replacement?


dolina wrote:
They actually ceased doing point releases for Aperture for over 3 years and 2 months already.


But it still works on the recently released OS. Which likely required some compatability testing for aperture.So although they are not officieally supporting, they must be softly supporting. Sooner or later an new os or security upgrade will cause it fail and then you are stuck and will have to roll back the clock.




Dec 12, 2017 at 05:43 PM
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