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Archive 2017 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS

  
 
PetKal
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Mikehit wrote:
So do Nikon support older gear in perpetuity?



Although I don't know much about Nikon equipment service practices, it wouldn't surprise me if they are similar to those of their cartel partner Canon.

However, be those practices as they may, many of us seldom choose a photography system based on a detailed knowledge of the company's service ins and outs. Perhaps some professional photographers/agencies do so.

(Last year we needed a new car, and a Mercedes SUV was one option considered. An M-B dealer in our neck-o'-the-woods was very informative, we test drove the particular model of interest to us, and everything looked and sounded very nice. Then I asked them how much their service folks charge for an engine oil and filter change. He apparently didn't know off the cuff, and upon checking with the shop, the price turned out to be in the vicinity of $450 CDN. He said he could not recall a prospective M-B car buyer ever asked that question. That was the last M-B have heard from us.)



Dec 08, 2017 at 05:22 AM
15Bit
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


PetKal wrote:
(Last year we needed a new car, and a Mercedes SUV was one option considered. An M-B dealer in our neck-o'-the-woods was very informative, we test drove the particular model of interest to us, and everything looked and sounded very nice. Then I asked them how much their service folks charge for an engine oil and filter change. He apparently didn't know off the cuff, and upon checking with the shop, the price turned out to be in the vicinity of $450 CDN. He said he could not recall a prospective M-B car buyer ever asked that question. That was
...Show more

You aren't the only one asking questions like that, but certainly there aren't many of us. I am thinking to get a car in the next year or so, and service costs are a big issue here due to the high labour rates. So i looked. Some of the companies actually put up numbers for how much each service should cost you, some don't. Tesla wins though - they not only have fixed rates for each service, they offer package deals for up to 4 years / 80k km.

One of my friends here had to have the oil changed in the centre diff of his 4wd BMW a few years back. That cost so much money it made my eyes water. It also made up my mind never to buy a BMW. I doubt M-B are any better.



Dec 08, 2017 at 06:14 AM
therealthings
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Am i glad i switched to a 2nd gen 600 this year. After the service announcement of the 400 2.8 earlier this year, i had that feeling that my 500 wouldn't take long before it was added to that list... Feels like i dodged a bullet there.


Dec 08, 2017 at 06:14 AM
PetKal
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


15Bit wrote:
You aren't the only one asking questions like that, but certainly there aren't many of us. I am thinking to get a car in the next year or so, and service costs are a big issue here due to the high labour rates. So i looked. Some of the companies actually put up numbers for how much each service should cost you, some don't. Tesla wins though - they not only have fixed rates for each service, they offer package deals for up to 4 years / 80k km.

One of my friends here had to have the oil changed in
...Show more

Actually, in Canada, M-B service/maintenance is significantly dearer than that of BMW.
Granted, I've seen some $ figures quoted for the cost of car ownership, but the real sobering information comes from their shop floor when confronted with exorbitant costs of routine maintenance such as oil/filter change, front end alignment, brake service, coolant flush etc.

The question is if I had my current experience with Canon service back when, would I have chosen EOS as my system ? It's hard to say.......I guess in such case I should have done a comparison against the Nikon service, so as to get the whole picture.



Dec 08, 2017 at 06:30 AM
PetKal
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


therealthings wrote:
Am i glad i switched to a 2nd gen 600 this year. After the service announcement of the 400 2.8 earlier this year, i had that feeling that my 500 wouldn't take long before it was added to that list... Feels like i dodged a bullet there.


Yes, I think you did. Once a lens is "orphaned", after it had been replaced by a new generation, its resale price takes an additional hit because such "obsolescence" is a serious concern for most buyers.

However, there are a couple of mitigating factors here: those long lenses seem to have high life expectancy (reliability) in the absence of accidental conditions such as water immersion, fungus infection or a drop. Furthermore, even if an obsolete lens malfunctions, there are third party Canon gear repair shops which may be able to do the repair.



Dec 08, 2017 at 06:45 AM
Mikehit
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


PetKal wrote:
Although I don't know much about Nikon equipment service practices, it wouldn't surprise me if they are similar to those of their cartel partner Canon.


So in other words it is not Canon's 'corporate arrogance' but a standard way of doing things. And I very much doubt Sony do anything different.

In fact the same post in which you accused them of arrogance gave a very sensible reason as to why they do this which is why your comment seemed so odd to me.




Dec 08, 2017 at 08:52 AM
ggreene
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


I have to admit it seems reasonable to me. 18 years is a long time to keep every spare part in stock. I wouldn't keep gear longer then 8-10 years anyways. I'm rough on it to some degree and would rather move on to something new. I think my longest owned piece of gear is the 70-200 IS II that is probably 6 years old.


Dec 08, 2017 at 09:00 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


ggreene wrote:
I have to admit it seems reasonable to me. 18 years is a long time to keep every spare part in stock. I wouldn't keep gear longer then 8-10 years anyways. I'm rough on it to some degree and would rather move on to something new. I think my longest owned piece of gear is the 70-200 IS II that is probably 6 years old.


I can see your point, and since you seem to do photo shooting professionally, you can write new gear off from taxes etc. I personally like older gear sometimes better - I have lenses made in the 50s and modern ones. What I like with older lenses is their built - metal housing, very good feel, beautiful DoF scales with IR markings, good manual focus rings. Modern lenses have better lens coating and are all sort of over-engineered regarding superb sharpness and micro contrast leading to some sort of sterile - meanwhile standard - image quality. But they are mostly made of plastic material which is lighter but feels less rigid, manual focus with modern lenses is by far less accurate than on older lenses - this is clear already when comparing EF with FD lenses for example. Regarding Canon EF lenses, I really like the old version of the 24-70/2.8 with close-up capability - very good built of the lens. The new version II on the other hand is smaller but the built/housing is nothing compared to the old version of this lens. This is not only Canon, most other brands move in the same direction with newer lenses - they are not made to last as long mechanically (but price tags are still immense!). It's a give and take what Is more important for the user - slight improvements compared to older lens versions with a bit of faster AF for example or keeping the better built one which delivers a similar image quality.

I got hands on some beautiful mint Schneider-Kreuznach Retina lenses from the late 50s recently - curious how they will perform on my mirrorless camera and on film itself. I personally stopped since a few years buying new lenses since I didn't see a benefit in my photography compared to the gear I already own and use.



Dec 08, 2017 at 09:33 AM
AvianScott
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Pathetic, imagine taking a car into the dealer and they tell you get lost they won't repair it anymore just because it's old. I can take a 50 year old car to my dealer and he'll still do repairs.


I don't necessarily think that's a good analogy. Cars are sold at a much higher rate than super-teles and the same car parts are often used in multiple models and for multiple model years. There are also many non-OEM parts suppliers which makes finding parts for cars much easier than a camera lens where there's only one supplier for parts - the manufacturer. And while finding a part for a 50 year old car may not be difficult in some instances, many cars that old do not have parts available any longer and you basically have to find parts at a scrap yard.

I think you'll find that most electronics have a service life of much less than a decade so I don't think Canon is being unreasonable to ending parts supply and service for lenses that haven't been produced for several years.

It's too bad there isn't a third party parts supplier that makes USM and IS modules for Canon and Nikon lenses after they surpass their service life. It would go a long way if Canon and Nikon would allow for such a thing to happen.

This does, however, make me take a closer look at the Sigma 500mm f/4. It seems like Sigma is still producing some of their really old superteles (300-800, 500 f/4.5, etc.), so that makes me think they'll keep the new 500mm f/4 on the production line for quite a long time.




Dec 08, 2017 at 09:34 AM
lighthound
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


So.... Anyone have a mint 600mm they wanna sell stupid cheap?

Peter - I have to agree with Mike that your comment about Canon's "corporate arrogance" is probably just par for the course in the entire industry. Yep, it sucks when they have to do this, but it is what it is.

Personally I'm envious at anyone that can afford such nice equipment but as the old saying goes...
If you can't play with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

I have so many splinters in my ass from having to stay on the porch it's ridiculous.

Dave



Dec 08, 2017 at 09:46 AM
mb126
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Wow there is going to be some deals out there on gen 1 teles! Clearly the prices are already being squeezed (to some extent) by the slower zooms and I have to think this will drive it even a little more.




Dec 08, 2017 at 09:49 AM
JimmyJames
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


I purchased a Mitsubishi rear projection HDTV in 2002. It was a beast at 72" and $7,500. The digital tuner failed under warranty about 3 years after purchase and I received a new one. (This has been the only thing I purchased with an extended warranty.) Sadly the same part failed in 2010 and other than eBay, no parts available. I junked it.

With that said, I continue to use a 300mm f2.8L from 1989. She is ugly but a workhorse.



Dec 08, 2017 at 10:11 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


ggreene wrote:
I have to admit it seems reasonable to me. 18 years is a long time to keep every spare part in stock. I wouldn't keep gear longer then 8-10 years anyways. I'm rough on it to some degree and would rather move on to something new. I think my longest owned piece of gear is the 70-200 IS II that is probably 6 years old.


In case of 300, it has been out of production for only 6 years and many people purchased it brand new as late as 2010. Talk about kick in the balls for those people.



Dec 08, 2017 at 10:14 AM
PetKal
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


In order to perhaps help us look upon this 1999 Gen. One IS supertelephoto lens obsolescence (no spare parts ?), here's some significantly less expensive lenses for which Canon had to be keeping ALL parts longer than 18 years and still counting:

*85 f/1.8 and 100 f/2 introduced 26 years ago, still in production.
*50 f/1.4 and 400 f/5.6 introduced 24 years ago, still in production.
*135L, 200 f/2.8 II, 180L introduced 21 years ago, still in production.



Dec 08, 2017 at 10:54 AM
tsangc
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Wouldn't that be the other way around? Because it's in active production, it's easier to keep spare parts? You're making money from selling them new, so that can offset keeping a part train active.

But if you're making no money from v1 IS models...to keep the part train active costs money. Once your base of primary users has moved off to v2 (six years?) then it's quite an expense.

Put it this way...I am not a Canon customer, at least not a primary one. I wasn't going to buy a new v2 300mm...so I can't really feel shorted by the fact my v1 is no longer supported. Canon wasn't going to make money on my loyalty as a customer. In fact, as I bought it from an FM member, Canon never made any money on me on the v1 either.



Dec 08, 2017 at 11:05 AM
schlotz
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Hmm.... Peter is 'done with Canon...' Somehow I think I've overslept and missed out on the latest news. What did you go to OR just not buying anymore?


Dec 08, 2017 at 11:09 AM
Mikehit
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


PetKal wrote:
In order to perhaps help us look upon this 1999 Gen. One IS supertelephoto lens obsolescence (no spare parts ?), here's some significantly less expensive lenses for which Canon had to be keeping ALL parts longer than 18 years and still counting:

*85 f/1.8 and 100 f/2 introduced 26 years ago, still in production.
*50 f/1.4 and 400 f/5.6 introduced 24 years ago, still in production.
*135L, 200 f/2.8 II, 180L introduced 21 years ago, still in production.


I don't think the issue is 'no spare parts' but enough spare parts out of stock to make opening the lens a risky venture. It only takes one doodad to be unavailable for the whole lens to be rendered useless. And I can envisage each lens line has a quite a few lot of parts unique to that model.

Besides, I am sure it would not be too difficult to find a third party with stocks of lenses they have bought for spares - what Canon is saying is that they will not use second had parts whose provenance is totally unknown. They probably use originals or nothing.
How would you feel if a lens came back form repair only to find it break again 1 month later because that pre-used salvage item failed?



Dec 08, 2017 at 11:16 AM
molson
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


danski0224 wrote:
......and people keep buying Canon stuff....



You bet! Where else can you get a product that will give you 18 (or more) years of reliable, trouble free service with class-leading performance?



Dec 08, 2017 at 12:12 PM
rico
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Modern Nikkors follow the same policy: after a lens is discontinued, the meter is running for OEM repairs and parts. The 10-year support requirement is law in several large markets (e.g. EU). The adage that AF lenses are an investment (versus bodies) has to be tempered by this reality. Meanwhile, manual lenses of all brands remain a better investment because they can be repaired without OEM-exclusive parts, or needed parts can be manufactured in your friendly neighborhood machine shop (SKGrimes, etc). My 800mm AI-S can be serviced right here in Chicago by APS.


Dec 08, 2017 at 12:14 PM
molson
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · The superteles from 1999: Now abandoned by CPS


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Pathetic, imagine taking a car into the dealer and they tell you get lost they won't repair it anymore just because it's old. I can take a 50 year old car to my dealer and he'll still do repairs. Abandoning megabuck lenses like this is simply lousy effort from Canon.


You seem to be confusing your car dealer with your car manufacturer... try taking that same car back to the factory that built it and ask them to service it. They probably wouldn't even recognize it.




Dec 08, 2017 at 12:17 PM
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