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Archive 2017 · New Leica CL Announced

  
 
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · New Leica CL Announced


For those interested:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2017/11/leica-cl-review/

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16683162/leica-cl-mirrorless-camera-price-announcement

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/21/leica-cl-mirrorless-aps-c-evf/

https://www.wired.com/review/review-leica-cl/













Nov 21, 2017 at 09:40 AM
arduluth
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · New Leica CL Announced


Still bummed by the lack of real manual dials and APS-C rather than FF, but let's face it: I'm not the target market. Either way, it's good news for the folks still interested in the TL system!


Nov 21, 2017 at 10:00 AM
Planetwide
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · New Leica CL Announced


The video features are meh


Nov 21, 2017 at 10:21 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · New Leica CL Announced


Andrew Gough wrote:
The video features are meh


I mostly agree but I could live with 30fps 4K and 60fps 1080 if the quality is there. I think the big question is how the video looks and I haven't seen any examples yet. If the camera has competent 4K at 30 fps and 1080 at 60fps, then it will fill a niche for Leica shooters who want video and do it fairly well.

Unfortunately, that is one of the few niche's that I see this camera filling. If you are happy with APS-C and want a small camera, Fuji offers a pretty compelling products with a quite diverse line of lenses. If you want a less expensive platform to shoot Leica M lenses and want a built in EVF, getting a Sony A7r II with a Kolari ultra thin conversion seems like a lot more compelling option and it is about the same price.

I think that leaves the niche mostly people who are drawn to Leica and want video, but find the SL too much camera. Doesn't seem like a big niche to me, but perhaps Leica doesn't need it to be. It still looks like a very nice camera, it is just that, IMO, it faces some very tough competition.



Nov 21, 2017 at 11:41 AM
Beni
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · New Leica CL Announced


No sensor cleaning? No USB port? What possible reason can there be?


Nov 21, 2017 at 11:53 AM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · New Leica CL Announced


Probably worst lookin Leitz camera so far.


Nov 21, 2017 at 11:56 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · New Leica CL Announced


Beni wrote:
No sensor cleaning? No USB port? What possible reason can there be?


I don't see no USB port as a very big deal for this sort of camera, and the no sensor cleaning is typical for Leica. Sensor cleaning requires additional cover glass that messes up compatibility with their lenses. Leica M cameras don't have electronic sensor cleaning either. Yes, the SL has it, but I am not surprised Leica didn't include it. My guess is that because sensor cleaning was left off, the CL will have a bit better compatibility with M lenses than the SL.



Nov 21, 2017 at 12:32 PM
Planetwide
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · New Leica CL Announced


Steve,

Have you experienced a compatibility issue with your SL? I ask, because I have not had any issues at all with any of my M glass.

Andrew



Nov 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM
AbramG
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · New Leica CL Announced


I'm slightly less bothered by its looks now than when we saw the "XY" leak. I wish they would have just fully embraced the III series aesthetic and gone that direction. Would have looked so cool!


Nov 21, 2017 at 12:38 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · New Leica CL Announced


Andrew Gough wrote:
Steve,

Have you experienced a compatibility issue with your SL? I ask, because I have not had any issues at all with any of my M glass.

Andrew


I don't have the SL, and basically all the currently available lenses work well with it. A couple by tests I have seen seem to work just a bit better with the M10. For example the 21 SEM seems to be better at wider apertures on the M10, but the SL pretty much catches up by f/5.6 and does seem to catch up by f/8. On older lenses designed for film it is pretty easy to show that the M10 does a bit better than the SL.



Nov 21, 2017 at 12:59 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · New Leica CL Announced


Stopped reading about it when I saw it was APS-C sensor based and not 35 mm frame-based as the old CL.


Nov 21, 2017 at 12:59 PM
Desmolicious
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · New Leica CL Announced


What I wrote about it on RFF:

I don't think it's ugly at all, I think it looks nice and stylish. If this is ugly, point out a Japanese digi cam that is good looking. It's not as nice looking as an M, but what is?


This bit sells it for me as I would use it with mf Leica lenses:


"I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.

I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!"

The price of $2800 puts it close to the used price of the M240. But this thing is smaller, is new, has a higher max shutter speed of 1/8000 sec for all those daylight wide open shooting junkies, and has a warranty.


One thing, Slack mentions "It has a built in EVF (not the same as the Visoflex) ", yet Leica's specs show it has the same resolution as the Visoflex, which is 2.4-ish mp which is about half of the SL. I find it hard to believe it is not the same as offered with the M10. It is also much less than the 3.7mp offered in the Q. The Leica Q is much more expensive (but that price includes the 28mm lens and is a FF camera), but it still is disappointing that this all new Leica camera gets some seriously old tech inside it. And this is not some innocuous that most wouldn't 'see', this is the viewfinder.
And herein lies the rub that I have with new digital Leica cameras. They are always way behind the curve with the latest tech. They have it (see the vf in the Q and the SL), but choose to introduce new models with tech that is 5 years old. No Japanese mfg would ever do that. They wouldn't survive. But Leica does that because, unfortunately, many people buy them - let's be honest here - because of the badge.

I was 'this close' to considering this CL due to its size and lens compatibility with my M glass. But seeing that EVF in it. What a disappointment.



Nov 21, 2017 at 01:16 PM
Planetwide
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · New Leica CL Announced


So far all of my M lenses have played very well with my SL. I have compared my m240 files to the SL files and there is no difference in sharpness. I no longer own the SEM 21mm, so testing is not possible.

I have read the reports on the 21mm, but I have also read that it is usually a lens issue...

It would make sense that the M10 would be better as it is a newer sensor specifically optimized for M lenses. I would bet that in real world use there is little difference in a post processed image.

Andrew



Nov 21, 2017 at 02:39 PM
LightShow
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · New Leica CL Announced


Would have been interesting if it was FF, and I really dislike the top, looks like the EVF was an afterthought and were too lazy to redesign the top.
Edit: I wouldn't trade my NEX-7 for this.

Edited on Nov 22, 2017 at 07:06 AM · View previous versions



Nov 21, 2017 at 03:05 PM
Donzo98
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · New Leica CL Announced


retrofocus wrote:
Stopped reading about it when I saw it was APS-C sensor based and not 35 mm frame-based as the old CL.


Yup.. same here. If it was FF, I would want one for sure.




Nov 21, 2017 at 04:34 PM
flash
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · New Leica CL Announced


I thought (and still do, even though I own two of them) that the SL was ugly. This thing is too. Maybe more so. When they have camera like the M, Q and X-Vario as design cues they come up with something that looks like a half finished Panasonic? Even removing one of those steps down on the left would have helped. Make the mics point forward and have the plate extend all the way to the front of the camera. At least it looks a bit better in real life than the leaked pictures. Also looks like there's no silver. Probably because it was too ugly to be allowed out in public. If we're lucky we'll get a limited Lenny Kravitz version....

But.... It'll make for a cheap tele-converter for the 90-280 and I won't need to buy the SL 16-35 as I own the 11-23 which is a spectacular little lens.. I wanted a TL with an EVF and it looks like this is what I'm getting. No point grumbling about it although I may put it in a case to hide it's hideousness. Can't go scaring children, can we?

While it does have a properly competitive sensor it's still vastly overpriced. No IBIS (or lens IS for the TL lenses). Still got the stupid f@@king mandatory LENR and short exposure times. Video guys (not me) will be pissed with the video and especially the audio. And let's not mention the EVF being lesser than both the SL AND Q??

Oh.... It takes a different battery to the TL. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

So am I getting one? Yep. I have a use for it (wide angle and tele solution for use next to the SL). Compared to the upcoming SL 16-35 it'll be cheap. But it'll be a working camera only. yet another Leica that I can't travel with because of stupid limitations.

So close and yet so far.....


Gordon



Nov 21, 2017 at 09:00 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · New Leica CL Announced


A couple of points somef in defense of this camera, which I don't really know why I am doing as it is not a camera that I am interested in at all.

First, @Desmolicious the 2.4ish mp viewfinder is pretty much exactly the same number as the Fuji XT-2 their top of the line viewfinder and the same number as the Olympus EM1 II their top of the line viewfinder. In fact, I don't think you will find a larger viewfinder in a camera with a smaller than FF 35mm sensor. So, although I am very sympathetic to your point that Leica has often behind the curve in the latest tech, and I believe this has generally been true, I don't think that is true for this particular view finder. It is a competitive viewfinder with other cropped sensor cameras, IMO. I think the key will be how well does that 2.4ish mp viewfinder work. How does it look? What is the lag like? What is the refresh rate? What is the blackout? Jono Slack seems to like it and I do find him a generally fair reviewer with, as would be expected, a moderate bias to like Lieca products. He does seem to be pretty good at finding flaws and he doesn't point any out with the viewfinder. So, even though this isn't the camera for me, it still may be a camera that will work for you.

Second, Andrew I think you are totally right that the SL does just fine with currently available M lenses and in practice there isn't likely to be an noticeable difference between it and the M10 in final processed prints. Older lenses designed for film (especially the wider angle ones), however, I think there may well be noticeable difference even after post-processing.

Third, Gordon, I agree video guys are likely to grumble as no audio in or video out in any way is very limiting. I suspect you can get audio in through the hot shoe as was done with the M240, but no video out means you can't use an external recorder which is just a shame as that can open up lots of possibilities. We'll see how the video actually works, but I also fear it may not be that good. I wonder if part of the reason that the M10 dropped video even though it was on the M240 is that Leica was hoping that people who wanted video would pick up this camera. Sadly, if that was Leica's thinking they unfortunately kept many of the same limits of the M240 video with this camera. The SL showed that Leica can do video pretty well. It is a bit puzzling that they didn't add the ports and just a bit more functionality so that this really could serve people interested in video well.



Nov 21, 2017 at 10:11 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · New Leica CL Announced


Maybe Panny should consider rebranding a Leica for a change, just to move into the APS-C space! I'd love to see some Panny ergonomic brilliance with a larger sensor camera!


Nov 21, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Desmolicious
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · New Leica CL Announced


Posted from RFF:

Think of it this way... List all the Leica interchangeable mount cameras that have a built in VF.

Leica CL - 24mp - $2800
Leica M 262 - 24mp - $5600
Leica SL - 24mp - $5995
Leica M 240 - 24mp - $6600 (incredible they are still selling this at this price)
Leica M 10 - 24 mp - $6900

Yeah the CL is APS-C but APS-C cameras still are capable of incredible pics. This is why we have the Nikon D500, Sony A6500 etc as well as their FF equivalents.
What we have here is an interchangeable lens (and M mount compatible) Leica camera for half the price of the next cheapest Leica. And this about this, it is the only one that has the AF option. Not bad...

I'm saying history is going to repeat itself. The original CL bludgeoned the sales of the M5, even though the M5 was - and still is - the best film Leica ever made.
This CL has the chance to do the same thing with the current M5 - the M10...

Edited on Nov 22, 2017 at 05:28 PM · View previous versions



Nov 22, 2017 at 02:00 PM
joakim
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · New Leica CL Announced


You missed the SL and S in that list.

Why would the CL be a M10 killer, I completely fail to see the logic in what you're saying? It will surely affect sales the same way the SL has or the Sony A7 series or the Fuji X cameras but why would this particular camera has such effect on the M10 sales?



Nov 22, 2017 at 03:38 PM
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