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Archive 2017 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???

  
 
millsart
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Starting to see some reviews and accounts of the G9, but I haven't seen anything that talks about the e-shutter readout time and if its fast enough to prevent distortion/skewing/jello effects on movement.

Black out free EVF, 20 FPS etc, is all well and good, BUT, if the readout takes say 1/100th of a second, its still going to be not very useful for a lot of fast action.

Sony A9 by comparison is fast enough that you can actually shoot most any action with it, save for things like a golf club swing, with zero distortion, making the camera one of the first that actually can be used with e-shutter for essentially anything except working with flash.

Obviously the G9 hasn't reached the "global shutter" technology yet, or else we'd certainly hear about it, but has anyone come across any spec for what it is ?




Nov 12, 2017 at 06:57 PM
Wilbus
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Unfortunately I think/guessing it's got the same readout as the E-M1.2 which is 1/60 if I remember correct.

The Camera Store touches on the issue very quick in their presentation of the G9 together with a Panasonic rep named Trisha Gillings.

https://youtu.be/6-VM4E33IcY?t=2692

Time stamped youtube video for you, I've put the timing about where they start talking about it. Meanwhile, they do a very quick test so watch it for about 2 minutes or so. The rolling shutter effect is still there and "pretty bad" but a pre-production and in studio with a 200mm F2.8 lens. So how fast it really is, we'll have to wait and see.

The Panasonic rep says it has been improved over the GH5 but the GH5 was 1/22th if I remember correct and have found the right info from sources online. The E-M1.2 is 1/60th I believe?

This is something that makes me hesitant to the camera as well. just like you say, 20FPS and blackout free EVF at that speed with electronic shutter is all fine and dandy till you have rolling shutter traces on every frame with fast action. I really hoped they would have gotten to A9 territory at least and beaten Olympus since the camera is about a year newer.

I love most new features of the G9, including the EVF, joystick, speed etc but still thinking of trying to live with my E-M1 for two more years till we hear some rumours of the E-M1.3. Unless Olympus really extends their release period but I don't think they can with the E-M1.2 and the competition now.

PS. I will be looking at one today in a camera store with the Panasonic reps at place, if I am lucky I might both be able to ask and to try but guessing I won't be allowed to bring any photos with me.



Nov 13, 2017 at 12:51 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


millsart wrote:
Starting to see some reviews and accounts of the G9, but I haven't seen anything that talks about the e-shutter readout time and if its fast enough to prevent distortion/skewing/jello effects on movement.

Black out free EVF, 20 FPS etc, is all well and good, BUT, if the readout takes say 1/100th of a second, its still going to be not very useful for a lot of fast action.

Sony A9 by comparison is fast enough that you can actually shoot most any action with it, save for things like a golf club swing, with zero distortion, making the camera one of
...Show more


Excellent question.
Unless the sensor read out time of the G9 exceeds that of the E-M1.2 by far and matches or exceeds that of the A9, for Hummingbirds in Flight and other fast action one would have to rely on the mechanical shutter of the G9.

K-H.



Nov 13, 2017 at 06:57 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Wilbus wrote:
Unfortunately I think/guessing it's got the same readout as the E-M1.2 which is 1/60 if I remember correct.

The Camera Store touches on the issue very quick in their presentation of the G9 together with a Panasonic rep named Trisha Gillings.

https://youtu.be/6-VM4E33IcY?t=2692

Time stamped youtube video for you, I've put the timing about where they start talking about it. Meanwhile, they do a very quick test so watch it for about 2 minutes or so. The rolling shutter effect is still there and "pretty bad" but a pre-production and in studio with a 200mm F2.8 lens. So how fast it really
...Show more

Hi Wilbus,

FWIW the information I've seen on the GH5's rolling-shutter/shutter-readout-speed is a bit different than what you're noting. Cinema5D reports it as 13ms here...

How Good is the Panasonic GH5? Lab Review + Free GH5 LUT [UPDATED] | cinema5D:
https://www.cinema5d.com/panasonic-gh5-lab-test/

...and Griffin Hammond reports it as 15ms here...

Pre-production Panasonic GH5 vs. Panasonic GH4: Sensor Test - YouTube:



...at 2:11 mark. He also notes the GH4 being at 22ms (~1/45-sec?).

As 1/60-second = 16.67ms we're looking at something a wee bit faster than that on the GH5 (~1/65-sec?) with either the C5D or GH findings.

As always, we'll have to wait-and-see with the "new camera".


Also, related to all of this, I discovered that the GH5 has a rolling shutter correction feature built-in to the camera for when one is shooting at 60fps 6K/4K mode as Panasonic demonstrates here..

Lumix GH5 - How to use 6K 4K Rolling Shutter Correction - YouTube:



...although I imagine that this will result in a horizontal resolution loss/compromise? Perhaps someone here has used this feature and can report?


Jimmy G




Nov 13, 2017 at 07:34 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Joining this for interest, too. E-shutters really need to be in the order of 1/250 to be all-round useful, I feel.

Jim Kasson claims the A9's e-shutter's readout time is 1/160"; that's excellent.

Please, some manufacturer bring on the first global shutter for a stills camera (not a dedicated video camera)



Nov 13, 2017 at 07:46 AM
Wilbus
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


jimmy462 wrote:
Hi Wilbus,

FWIW the information I've seen on the GH5's rolling-shutter/shutter-readout-speed is a bit different than what you're noting. Cinema5D reports it as 13ms here...

How Good is the Panasonic GH5? Lab Review + Free GH5 LUT [UPDATED] | cinema5D:
https://www.cinema5d.com/panasonic-gh5-lab-test/

...and Griffin Hammond reports it as 15ms here...

Pre-production Panasonic GH5 vs. Panasonic GH4: Sensor Test - YouTube:



...at 2:11 mark. He also notes the GH4 being at 22ms (~1/45-sec?).

As 1/60-second = 16.67ms we're looking at something a wee bit faster than that on the GH5 (~1/65-sec?) with either the C5D or GH findings.

As always, we'll have to wait-and-see with the "new camera".

Also, related
...Show more

Hey Jimmy and thanks for the reply! Very interesting, not only in that they meassure it to different timings but also that they don't coincide with the figures I "thought" were official.
Now, it may very well be a stupid misstake from my side, reading something I thought was official on a page and without doing much more research taking it as true.

We'll see if there is any noticeable difference with the G9.

Do you know the readout speed of the E-M1.2?

For what it's worth, I did handle the G9 a bit today, not for very long but a few minutes and only had a very quick chance to try rolling shutter indoors and in bad lightning. The few tests I managed to do did not show it (panning and shooting at 20fps) but it's too early and too hard to say judging from the camera display.

I'm sure some tests will show bring it up soon enough.




Nov 13, 2017 at 09:05 AM
whumber
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


The GH5 is 1/60s like the E-M1ii at low ISO settings but at some higher value, I think 800 or 1250, it switches to a slower readout of 1/22s. My RX100V did something similar but it switched over at something like ISO 8000.


Nov 13, 2017 at 11:17 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


whumber wrote:
The GH5 is 1/60s like the E-M1ii at low ISO settings but at some higher value, I think 800 or 1250, it switches to a slower readout of 1/22s. My RX100V did something similar but it switched over at something like ISO 8000.



Interesting, thanks.
Is that information from the manufacturer?
What's the source?

K-H.



Nov 13, 2017 at 11:22 AM
whumber
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


There was some testing done over on DPReview using a flickering LED light source and looking for changes in the number of bands produced. I'll see if I can find the link and post it here.

EDIT: Here's something similar, they don't talk about the change with ISO but you can see they see a speed of 1/22s at ISO 3200 and then show a speed of 1/60s when shooting in 6K photo mode.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2017/04/gh5-e-shutter-is-slower.html



Nov 13, 2017 at 11:48 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


whumber wrote:
There was some testing done over on DPReview using a flickering LED light source and looking for changes in the number of bands produced. I'll see if I can find the link and post it here.

EDIT: Here's something similar, they don't talk about the change with ISO but you can see they see a speed of 1/22s at ISO 3200 and then show a speed of 1/60s when shooting in 6K photo mode.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2017/04/gh5-e-shutter-is-slower.html



Thanks Kim, much appreciated.

K-H.



Nov 13, 2017 at 12:17 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


whumber wrote:
There was some testing done over on DPReview using a flickering LED light source and looking for changes in the number of bands produced. I'll see if I can find the link and post it here.

EDIT: Here's something similar, they don't talk about the change with ISO but you can see they see a speed of 1/22s at ISO 3200 and then show a speed of 1/60s when shooting in 6K photo mode.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2017/04/gh5-e-shutter-is-slower.html


Hi whumber,

The chart next to the "Joker Lego" in your link shows the 1/22-second result that Wilbus reported for ECS sensor-read speed and the 1/60-second that is close to what I reported from Cinema5D and Griffin Hammond for 6K/4K Photo Mode...seems both bits of info were accurate! Ha!

To put on my propeller hat for a moment here...I find it Interesting to note that a 1/66-second read speed equals the 15ms reported by Griffin Hammond (previous video link) and would be a 3x harmonic of 1/22-second M43.blogspot number in your link. It would make sense to me that Panny could be employing a 3x frequency multiplier in its circuitry to move along the lower-data-load JPGs for 6K/4K Photo Mode. Conversely they have to slow down the sensor readout speed to accommodate the heavier data lifting for the RAW/JPG files whilst using ECS.

Just "spit-balling" here.


Jimmy G



Nov 13, 2017 at 09:14 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Kit Laughlin wrote:
Joining this for interest, too. E-shutters really need to be in the order of 1/250 to be all-round useful, I feel.

Jim Kasson claims the A9's e-shutter's readout time is 1/160"; that's excellent.

Please, some manufacturer bring on the first global shutter for a stills camera (not a dedicated video camera)


Hi Kit,

Global shutter is not without its own set of issues...

Camera shutter speed synchronized with helicopter blade frequency - YouTube:






JG



Nov 13, 2017 at 09:17 PM
Wilbus
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


See I wasn't totally wrong

You may very well be on to something Jimmy in regards to 4k/6k photo, jpg or raw.

As far as the chopper video goes, it never gets old really, always fun to watch




Nov 13, 2017 at 11:34 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


I imagine that could happen with a mechanical shutter too, no? Nice video; I had not seen that before!


Nov 13, 2017 at 11:55 PM
millsart
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


That video was just too cool lol, I've rewatched it quite a few times already

Certainly would be a bummer if the G9 doesn't have a read-out significantly faster than the EM1.2 though. I found myself mostly using mechanical shutter on the EM1.2 simply because with the e-shutter I'd still get skewing and distortion on a lot of faster action. Its not always that visible looking at just a single frame in isolation, but, when your editing through a burst of shots and can see frames before and after, you can notice it. Its workable in many situations though, and overall a lot better than previously.

Thing is though, if I were to buy a G9, its not because I want more of the same, or workable, its because I want a substantially better electronic shutter read-out time, paired with black-out free shooting (and might as well throw in better tracking too)

If we are getting just EM1.2 level tech, with a nice EVF and (IMO) better ergonomics, a year after the EM1.2, and for $100 less retail price, its basically "too little, too late"

Maybe I'm unrealistic (wont be the first time) but I want A9 level tech, yet don't want an A9 price point. Essentially I'd like a camera with a very fast and usable e-shutter that works for 99% of shooting needs, a great big EVF, amazing IBIS, fast AF, and Pannys great control layout, use of touch screen etc.

G9 checks off a lot of those boxes, but at the end of the day, what good is this blazing frame rate, potentially great tracking AF, beautiful EVF with no black-outs etc, if it doesn't cut it when it comes to fast action.

You'd end up going back to mechanical shutter, which while fast, isn't much better than anything else on the market, and you'd still have blackouts etc, so then it comes down to what would it really give me a EM1.2, XT2, A7R3 etc, etc wouldn't to make it worth buying ?

We will see what happens, but Panny may have missed a great oppurtinity with this camera....

If Sony can roll out a A73, with something like the A9 e-shutter and blackout free shooting, and maybe 24meg, but slower frame rate etc, at a much lower price, like $2400 that could be a huge seller

Or maybe Fuji can add IBIS to an XT2s, and perhaps they too could get on the blackout free EVF game, add faster readout etc, and again, for $2200 or whatever, have a pretty stellar camera.

I think there is a pretty big demand for something that brings a near global shutter like, mirrorless camera experience, at a reasonable price tag. I don't think most people want to spend A9 money, but at the same time, I think a lot of people would be willing to spend around $2k, provided its something really revolutionary.




Nov 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


millsart wrote:
That video was just too cool lol, I've rewatched it quite a few times already

Certainly would be a bummer if the G9 doesn't have a read-out significantly faster than the EM1.2 though. I found myself mostly using mechanical shutter on the EM1.2 simply because with the e-shutter I'd still get skewing and distortion on a lot of faster action. Its not always that visible looking at just a single frame in isolation, but, when your editing through a burst of shots and can see frames before and after, you can notice it. Its workable in many situations though, and
...Show more

I agree with your first ⅓ post.
A few numbers of electronic shutter read-out times:

A7r2 = A7r3 = 1/13 s
E-M1.2 = 1/60 s
A9 = 1/150 s - as measured by Jim Kasson
G9 - it seems very likely in the neighborhood of the E-M1.2.

My interest in the A7r3 and G9 ends here.

K-H.



Nov 14, 2017 at 11:28 AM
jrsforums
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???




k-h.a.w wrote:
I agree with your first ⅓ post.
A few numbers of electronic shutter read-out times:

A7r2 = A7r3 = 1/13 s
E-M1.2 = 1/60 s
A9 = 1/150 s - as measured by Jim Kasson
G9 - it seems very likely in the neighborhood of the E-M1.2.

My interest in the A7r3 and G9 ends here.

K-H.


I am sure is ma missing something, but help me understand.....

In video, both GH5 and G9 can shoot variable frame rates up to 180. How can this be do if sensor readout is only 1/60 sec?



Nov 23, 2017 at 05:16 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


I deleted my reply to jrsforum's question; overnight I found myself re-asking his question. In the film (movie) camera world, definitely mechanical shutters do this job (a cutaway circular shutter, typically half, hence "180° shutter"). But in the modern video world? Jrsforum's question is an excellent one, and I would like to know the answer, too.


Nov 23, 2017 at 05:25 AM
jrsforums
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???



Kit Laughlin wrote:
I deleted my reply to jrsforum's question; overnight I found myself re-asking his question. In the film (movie) camera world, definitely mechanical shutters do this job (a cutaway circular shutter, typically half, hence "180° shutter"). But in the modern video world? Jrsforum's question is an excellent one, and I would like to know the answer, too.


Just to be clear with my thoughts and assumptions....

What ever the shutter or later compression of the video, for each shot, the sensor must be read. On the GH5, this is essentially the full sensor, not just partial as in GH4.

Therefore, to get 180 FPS, the sensor must be read at least in 180th of a second. Probably slightly faster, unless there is absolutely total overlap of the downstream in camera processing and buffer readout.



Nov 23, 2017 at 03:42 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sensor read-out time on the G9 known yet ???


Yes, that's what I thought you meant—it's a very good question!


Nov 23, 2017 at 04:33 PM
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