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a7r3 and playmemories apps?
  
 
virtualrain
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Here is the answer I got from Ryan at Arsenal:

"Hey Fred,
So the image averaging is interesting. We can do one trick that lets us do a lot more shots than we would with focus stacking or exposure bracketing. Those can require paging in and out of ram, so they tend to get slower as you add more images. (Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, and C like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(B * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(C * 0.25)

(each time adding 1/n) we can keep from needing
...Show more

Iím guessing this is how the Sony app works. I always wondered why there was virtually no processing after the series was completed shooting. Itís basically averaging them as it goes.



Nov 10, 2017 at 06:49 AM
uhoh7
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


I would have thought the whole sony OS would be hacked by now, and we would have magic lantern style interface for both stills and vid.

When you are trying to switch back and forth between video and stills.....obviously I could go on, but you guys know. The interface of the A7rii is execrable.

Just different enough from A7 to make the two terrible partners.

The very idea they say: pros don't want an app store shows how utterly clueless they are about how the camera is used, or how little they care. Video button is a classic. Can't do anything else.....well maybe they fixed that now?

But of course the guts of the cameras are very good. Like an incredible car with gearshift in trunk

TYG real batteries have finally appeared.



Nov 10, 2017 at 07:26 AM
Stoffer
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Here is the answer I got from Ryan at Arsenal:

"Hey Fred,
So the image averaging is interesting. We can do one trick that lets us do a lot more shots than we would with focus stacking or exposure bracketing. Those can require paging in and out of ram, so they tend to get slower as you add more images. (Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, and C like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(B * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(C * 0.25)

(each time adding 1/n) we can keep from needing
...Show more

Great news. One thing I don't quite get though and that is the data transfers.

A raw file is send to the Arsenal device through USB cable. OK. But then the raw file has to be send from the Arsenal device to the smartphone/tablet via an ad hoc Wi-Fi (when shooting outdoors), right? That doesn't sound super fast or reliable to me. What am I missing?

One more thing: I don't think the DNG standard allows for 16-bit to be floating point, you will need a 32-bit DNG for that (larger file). I hope we get the option to choose which to save to. In extreme cases, a DNG 16-bit could provide artefacts, there is a reason why HDR is saved in 32-bit floating point after all.




Nov 10, 2017 at 07:46 AM
Slalom
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Here is the answer I got from Ryan at Arsenal:

"Hey Fred,
So the image averaging is interesting. We can do one trick that lets us do a lot more shots than we would with focus stacking or exposure bracketing. Those can require paging in and out of ram, so they tend to get slower as you add more images. (Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, and C like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(B * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(C * 0.25)

(each time adding 1/n) we can keep from needing
...Show more

Should be:

(Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, C, and D like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(C * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(D * 0.25)

Because the original had 2 B's so averaged A-Z & B.



Nov 10, 2017 at 08:51 AM
snapsy
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Stoffer wrote:
Great news. One thing I don't quite get though and that is the data transfers.

A raw file is send to the Arsenal device through USB cable. OK. But then the raw file has to be send from the Arsenal device to the smartphone/tablet via an ad hoc Wi-Fi (when shooting outdoors), right? That doesn't sound super fast or reliable to me. What am I missing?

One more thing: I don't think the DNG standard allows for 16-bit to be floating point, you will need a 32-bit DNG for that (larger file). I hope we get the option to choose which to
...Show more

WiFi is reliable enough - I use it on Nikon and Sony cameras with my airnef app all the time. Performance should be reasonable if they use 802.11ac

DNG allows 16-bit floating point - it's what Adobe uses for the HDR merge functionality they added in LR6/PS CC. Here's a link with technical details:

http://protogtech.com/adobe-lightroom/adobe-dng-hdr-format/



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:20 PM
Stoffer
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:
WiFi is reliable enough - I use it on Nikon and Sony cameras with my airnef app all the time. Performance should be reasonable if they use 802.11ac

DNG allows 16-bit floating point - it's what Adobe uses for the HDR merge functionality they added in LR6/PS CC. Here's a link with technical details:

http://protogtech.com/adobe-lightroom/adobe-dng-hdr-format/


Ahh! Great about about the DNG 16-bit.



Nov 10, 2017 at 04:45 PM
mjm6
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


So the phone is used as the primary processing device for this? That's pretty interesting. I wonder if it would be possible to use an actual laptop for more processing power and RAM.

With the large files of the a7R cameras, (and a few others from Nikon and Canon) it could be a pretty big lift to get most phones to have enough storage and RAM plus processing power to do the work, to say nothing of the batteries in these as well.

I think this is a great concept, and although I'm not terribly interested in the "AI" capabilities there is a lot to find interesting in this product.

I bet this thread and Fred's link to the device is driving a lot of pre-release orders right now! Hahaha



Nov 10, 2017 at 05:08 PM
Duckysaysquack
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Touchless shutter and Smart Remote were great! Saved me the trouble of having to buy dumb remote. Those really should be integrated into the camera system. I can't imagine these being too much processing power.




Nov 10, 2017 at 05:43 PM
Vcize
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


chez wrote:
Let's cut Sony some slack until we understand why they removed the apps from the latest cameras.


What?

If Sony wants us to cut them some slack, they could just offer some transparency and actually TELL us what's going on with the apps, what the reason is for removing them, if they're coming back, etc.

I swear, movie and videogame development companies offer all kinds of clarity and updates about their product and that's merely entertainment that we're spending a few bucks on. But camera systems that we have thousands of dollars on and rely on professionally and Sony can't be arsed to write up a quick paragraph about something that is important to a lot of their customers?

Why do they deserve some slack for this again?



Nov 10, 2017 at 07:01 PM
Vcize
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Parariss wrote:
The app store is only a small piece of it. You have to develop and maintain APIs in the camera firmware ("Application Programmer's Interface" -- the interface points where the apps can interact at arm's length with the camera's own software without screwing it up). And, if you're going to allow third-parties to make apps (which is where the potential for enhanced value actually comes in), you also need publishable documentation, developer support initiatives, and quality control teams to make sure apps aren't time bombs. (And, good luck attracting a herd of developers to your decidedly niche product.) Don't forget
...Show more

You're right about the costs involved, but I disagree with your other two points.

I don't think it would be at all difficult attracting developers. Heck as a prior software engineer myself I would jump right in. How many photographers would jump at a focus stacking app for $9.99? A whole lot would be my guess, and that (along with many of the other interesting camera apps) aren't something so complex you need to secure VC funding and a team of devs to create.

The phone app stores are so saturated. At this point you need to not only have the ability and money to create apps there, but also a truly unique idea. I think there are plenty of devs that would love to spend some time hammering out money making apps that require nothing more than a well-known spec sheet.

As far as what is in it for Sony, again I disagree. The app store was a big part of what made Apple's hardware viable. This is a major feature we're talking about. As long as the camera systems otherwise are at least somewhat comparable I would easily jump into one system over another to be able to use an open app store. I easily have $10,000+ worth of Sony gear that I would buy again on a different system if they offered that, and based on some of the statements I've seen around here I don't think I'm alone on that. It's not just their cut of a handful of $9.99 apps, it's the entry into their ecosystem when each consumer's spending goes well beyond one $700 device like it is limited to on smartphones.

But hey, in the interim I'd happily take built in functionality of many of these features instead. Sadly, that's not being offered by Sony either.



Nov 10, 2017 at 07:39 PM
 

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Fred Miranda
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Smart remote is still supported via main firmware. (No longer an app)

Duckysaysquack wrote:
Touchless shutter and Smart Remote were great! Saved me the trouble of having to buy dumb remote. Those really should be integrated into the camera system. I can't imagine these being too much processing power.





Nov 10, 2017 at 07:47 PM
Matt Grum
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Slalom wrote:
Should be:

(Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, C, and D like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(C * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(D * 0.25)

Because the original had 2 B's so averaged A-Z & B.


If they used 32-bit values (at the cost of additional memory usage) they could merge over 250,000 images by simple addition without any loss of precision.

Or they could use half-precision floats and do a similar thing with no additional memory overhead, but then they'd probably have to do addition in software as not all ARM FPUs support half precision.



Nov 10, 2017 at 07:56 PM
kdrk888
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


To add some fun stuff for discussion this weekend, I got a message from Arsenal:

"All image processing happens in Arsenal (not your camera or your phone) and the files are then written to your SD card."

The little thingy that's attached to the flash shoe of our camera.



Nov 10, 2017 at 08:15 PM
navmannz
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Vcize wrote:
What?

If Sony wants us to cut them some slack, they could just offer some transparency and actually TELL us what's going on with the apps, what the reason is for removing them, if they're coming back, etc.

I swear, movie and videogame development companies offer all kinds of clarity and updates about their product and that's merely entertainment that we're spending a few bucks on. But camera systems that we have thousands of dollars on and rely on professionally and Sony can't be arsed to write up a quick paragraph about something that is important to a lot of their customers?

Why
...Show more

Unfortunately, transparency is not Sony's style. Look at their behavior with the star-eater change in f/w 3.3 for the A7RII - introduced with no warning, and even after months of agitation, including a 6000 signature petition, they still decline to even acknowledge the issue, let alone address it.

-John



Nov 10, 2017 at 08:20 PM
Vcize
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


kdrk888 wrote:
To add some fun stuff for discussion this weekend, I got a message from Arsenal:

"All image processing happens in Arsenal (not your camera or your phone) and the files are then written to your SD card."

The little thingy that's attached to the flash shoe of our camera.


I have to think that is mostly a good thing since it eliminates the step of having to move the files from the arsenal to your phone without a wired connection.

The downside would be if the device itself is too underpowered to do these operations in a snappy manner in practice.



Nov 10, 2017 at 08:28 PM
Jimi3
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


I got to speak to Sony rep at an annual Hunt's Photo show here in the Boston area and he told me not many people use the apps, those that do are not pros, and not to expect them to return. All stuff we've heard before. Too bad, since the lack of apps is actually the only thing holding me back from the a7riii. I'll be watching the Arsenal with interest, though.


Nov 10, 2017 at 11:43 PM
kdrk888
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


I would hazard a guess that Sony sells a hell lot more cameras to hobbyists than to pros... But how many of those hobbyists bought the apps is another story.


Nov 11, 2017 at 12:12 AM
bjornthun
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


If the Arsenal device works well, that will be much easier to use, than to operate an app while viewing the 3 inch screen at the back if the camera, and you can choose what suits you best of a smart phone or a tablet. So, my fingers are crossed for the Arsenal device to work better than the camera apps.


Nov 11, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Vcize
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


The Arsenal looks interesting and I pre-ordered one but I worry a bit that we are not the target market. It looks like their main feature and what they spent the majority of their kickstarter vid advertising (and hence probably what they spend most of their dev time on) is this "it will pick your settings for you" algorithm.

I think just about everyone here knows how/when to set a long exposure and how/when to shoot with a large DoF, but those are some of the scenarios they're really pushing to sell this thing. I worry that all the stacking stuff, etc is just kind of background noise to them and won't be focused on in development. I guess we'll see when it comes out, I think mine is in the February batch.

I also have never had anything in my cameras controlled by smartphone that wasn't laggy and unreliable. Most of the features these things advertise generally aren't really usable in practice because it's too laggy/slow, so hopefully this will be better on that front but I am not incredibly optimistic.



Nov 11, 2017 at 12:55 AM
MedicineMan404
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Vcize the laggy/slow issue may be helped along with the constant low energy bluetooth connection? At least I'm hoping. Me too on a pre-'d Arsenal via Kickstarter. No high hopes truthfully but the phone based apps for the future Sonys I feel is the direction they are headed. Arsenal may be the first but won't be the last. If they nail it good for them (and us).

Back to connection issues I wonder if the smartphone can be connected via the multipin micro-usb for inputting directions then unplugged? Arsenal brags you set the program with the phone and then walk away and Arsenal runs the operation you set-selected. Always a pain connecting micro-usb but USB-C is really nice not having to orient.



Nov 14, 2017 at 04:43 AM
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