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a7r3 and playmemories apps?
  
 
kdrk888
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:
I don't believe this type of functionality is exposed to third-party apps, so I would guess all the processing is done within the camera/tablet app, with the resulting file sent back to the camera over the USB/MTP interface to be saved on the media card.


Here is my question to Arsenal: "Hi. I just placed an order. One question, it's not clear if your focus stacking function will merge the pictures in camera and save it as one single raw file, or we still need to do the merging in computer, which will be a huge disappointment. Thanks"

Here is their response: "sorry it's not clear. Arsenal will merge the files into a single RAW file. It will also save the individual RAW files. Thanks!"



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:17 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


kdrk888 wrote:
Here is my question to Arsenal: "Hi. I just placed an order. One question, it's not clear if your focus stacking function will merge the pictures in camera and save it as one single raw file, or we still need to do the merging in computer, which will be a huge disappointment. Thanks"

Here is their response: "sorry it's not clear. Arsenal will merge the files into a single RAW file. It will also save the individual RAW files. Thanks!"


The MTP API (over USB) allows their app to pull the raw files down from the camera into their app (on the phone/tablet), which is likely where they'll do all the processing. The MTP API also allows apps to push files to the camera to store on the card, as if the camera itself took the exposure. That's the most likely way they are implementing this functionality.



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:23 AM
mjm6
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


If they are saving back to the camera, that is excellent... Shoot a bunch of images, merge the RAW data, and then save back as an additional RAW to bring into LR when you go to download the files.

Similarly for the focus stacking, but I would think that would take some serious hardware to be able to do a decent job with the algorithms needed to do that processing.

I wonder if they also have the ability to add capabilities later, so you could add a specific app, similar to the PlayMemories apps.

There are a few things that I thought would be really nice to do with the a7rII, and some of them could be done through a tool like this if they open it up for third-party development.

Maybe Sony saw this future coming so they decided there wasn't any point in continuing their somewhat limited and only partly useful apps they put together so far.

While the SR app is great, it is pretty limited in some ways, but this device could essentially solve all the issues (in particular, electronic shutter, but also the image processing differences, uncompressed RAW)



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:32 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:
The MTP API (over USB) allows their app to pull the raw files down from the camera into their app (on the phone/tablet), which is likely where they'll do all the processing. The MTP API also allows apps to push files to the camera to store on the card, as if the camera itself took the exposure. That's the most likely way they are implementing this functionality.


Do you think a phone app would be capable of processing "14-bit RAW" focus-bracketing, image averaging or exposure-bracketing?



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:33 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Do you think a phone app would be capable of processing "14-bit RAW" focus-bracketing, image averaging or exposure-bracketing?


I do. The A10 processor in the one-year old iPhone 7/7+ has processing power close to Intel's entry-level notebook CPUs. And that's just the CPU - their GPU is rather powerful as well, if Arsenal takes advantage of it.



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:55 AM
bjornthun
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Do you think a phone app would be capable of processing "14-bit RAW" focus-bracketing, image averaging or exposure-bracketing?


iPad Pro in its latest incarnation is capable of running Affinity Photo, and the Olympus OM-D E-M1 mk II is capable of merging a focus stack of up to eight images in camera, AFAIK. I think that's the most precise answer we have right now. However, you may want to do retouching of a stacked image, which will require a PC/Mac with a real big computer screen, which is how any serious stacking will be done.



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:59 AM
kdrk888
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:
The MTP API (over USB) allows their app to pull the raw files down from the camera into their app (on the phone/tablet), which is likely where they'll do all the processing. The MTP API also allows apps to push files to the camera to store on the card, as if the camera itself took the exposure. That's the most likely way they are implementing this functionality.


I am a n00b when it comes to tech...Did you mean the individual raw files from the camera are sent to the phone via blue tooth, the phone will then do the merging and send the merged file back to the card in the camera? I wonder what that process will do to the phone's battery



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:01 AM
bjornthun
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


kdrk888 wrote:
I am a n00b when it comes to tech...Did you mean the individual raw files from the camera are sent to the phone via blue tooth, the phone will then do the merging and send the merged file back to the card in the camera? I wonder what that process will do to the phone's battery


Deplete it.
I would be satisfied if the images to be stacked are just grouped together, perhaps in a separate subfolder for each image stack done.



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:14 AM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


I would prefer the camera does not merge the images in camera, just tag them for post. Rather do this work on computer. It will eat batteries and slow down the camera.


Nov 10, 2017 at 02:14 AM
kdrk888
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


GMPhotography wrote:
I would prefer the camera does not merge the images in camera, just tag them for post. Rather do this work on computer. It will eat batteries and slow down the camera.


I use the Smooth Reflection app quite a bit. It doesn't seem to slow down the camera at all, the merging is instant after the camera takes the last shot. What actually slows things down is when the camera is taking multiple shots, if it's 32 shots at 5 seconds each, it takes a while. But the merging is instant.



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:30 AM
 

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snapsy
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


kdrk888 wrote:
I am a n00b when it comes to tech...Did you mean the individual raw files from the camera are sent to the phone via blue tooth, the phone will then do the merging and send the merged file back to the card in the camera? I wonder what that process will do to the phone's battery


Right, in this case though it uses USB instead of Bluetooth (for faster transfers). Most cameras including Sony support an industry-standard API that allows apps to communicate with the camera over USB (and WiFi) to do a common set of actions. These actions include changing the exposure settings, triggering autofocus, taking a photo or video, transferring photos from the camera/media card to the app and vice versa, etc... With this basic set of functionality a third-party app like Arsenal can add a bunch of features that automate the process of taking photos and then doing custom processing on the photos taken. In a sense Arsenal is acting just like Lightroom tethering, but with more automation and unique features.



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:37 AM
ytwong
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:

I do. The A10 processor in the one-year old iPhone 7/7+ has processing power close to Intel's entry-level notebook CPUs. And that's just the CPU - their GPU is rather powerful as well, if Arsenal takes advantage of it.


I don't, plus the phone has no such amount of ram to handle multiple 42MP images. And my 256GB SSD in iPhone and iPad can't hold a lot of ARW files too (I have other stuffs to store!)

And don't forget those entry-level notebook CPU were designed for mobile or tablet just to compete with ARMS CPU and iPad/Android tablets.




Nov 10, 2017 at 02:48 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


ytwong wrote:
I don't, plus the phone has no such amount of ram to handle multiple 42MP images. And my 256GB SSD in iPhone and iPad can't hold a lot of ARW files too (I have other stuffs to store!)

And don't forget those entry-level notebook CPU were designed for mobile or tablet just to compete with ARMS CPU and iPad/Android tablets.

Entry-level notebook processors are very powerful - they may be targeted for browsing and media consumption but they're also very powerful. Geekbench is a good metric to use because it's cross-platform and runs a good mix of algorithms - you can browse results for various processors here.

As for RAM, the app only needs enough to manage two images at a time - the cumulative image result and the next image to merge into that result. The iPhone 7 has 2GB of RAM and the 7+ 3GB - that's plenty.



Nov 10, 2017 at 02:53 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Here's a quick pair of graphs showing iPhone vs Mac Geekbench results:

iPhone Geekbench 4 results
Mac Geekbench 4 results

For multi-core the iPhone 8/X scores about equivalent to a 2013 Mac desktop/Macbook pro.



Nov 10, 2017 at 03:00 AM
DavidBM
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Did you ask them about their image averaging feature? How many shots can we do? (SR gives us from 2 to 256)
Does it save it back to the card as a RAW? Does it support uncompressed RAW and silent shutter?
I could not get any answer from them but perhaps I reached someone who didn't know much...



Did you ask them about their image averaging feature? How many shots can we do? (SR gives us from 2 to 256)

No didn't as no of shots

Does it save it back to the card as a RAW?

Linear DNG which is RAW as possible I guess..

Does it support uncompressed RAW and silent shutter?

Don't know

I could not get any answer from them but perhaps I reached someone who didn't know much.

I asked a question via what looks like a chat function, and a day later someone emailed me..




Nov 10, 2017 at 03:21 AM
bjornthun
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


snapsy wrote:
Here's a quick pair of graphs showing iPhone vs Mac Geekbench results:

iPhone Geekbench 4 results
Mac Geekbench 4 results

For multi-core the iPhone 8/X scores about equivalent to a 2013 Mac desktop/Macbook pro.


The 2nd generation iPad Pros are right behind the iPhone 8/X, which means they are almost as powerful (95%) as the Late 2013 Macbook Pro, with Intel core i7 processor, which I have. That is food for thought. Apple's Axx ARM processors have undergone much faster development than the Intel processors it seems, and maybe they are at a level where they could even run macOS in laptops?



Nov 10, 2017 at 03:29 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


DavidBM wrote:
Did you ask them about their image averaging feature? How many shots can we do? (SR gives us from 2 to 256)

No didn't as no of shots

Does it save it back to the card as a RAW?

Linear DNG which is RAW as possible I guess..

Does it support uncompressed RAW and silent shutter?

Don't know

I could not get any answer from them but perhaps I reached someone who didn't know much.

I asked a question via what looks like a chat function, and a day later someone emailed me..



I just asked them these questions via chat. As soon as I get a response I will post it here.



Nov 10, 2017 at 03:32 AM
kdrk888
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Fred Miranda wrote:
I just asked them these questions via chat. As soon as I get a response I will post it here.


Fred, at the "chat", the creator of Arsenal, Ryan popped up. I actually told him there is a big discussion here and that if he chimes in, he may get quite a few orders. He hasn't responded.



Nov 10, 2017 at 03:43 AM
johnctharp
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


bjornthun wrote:
Apple's Axx ARM processors have undergone much faster development than the Intel processors it seems, and maybe they are at a level where they could even run macOS in laptops?


It may seem this way when following desktop processors, and to a certain extent Mac laptops (where innovation seems to have been confined to having the 'courage' to remove features people actually use as of late), but mobile is definitely where Intel has been focused.

For example, I'd like to see comparisons with that 2013 Macbook and a current XPS13 with a four-core/eight-thread 4.0GHz i7

[to add to the discussion, I don't see that as being really relevant unless apps are developed to shoot tethered to a desktop OS such as Windows 10 and OSX, as would be necessary to make use of that extra horsepower, and such a solution would likely be unwieldy in the field...]



Nov 10, 2017 at 05:09 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · a7r3 and playmemories apps?


Here is the answer I got from Ryan at Arsenal:

"Hey Fred,
So the image averaging is interesting. We can do one trick that lets us do a lot more shots than we would with focus stacking or exposure bracketing. Those can require paging in and out of ram, so they tend to get slower as you add more images. (Past a point) Not to get too technical, but if we merge images A, B, and C like this:
X = (A*0.5)+(B*0.5)
X = (X * 0.6666)+(B * 0.3333)
X = (X * 0.75)+(C * 0.25)

(each time adding 1/n) we can keep from needing more than a single 2 images worth of ram at any time. The limiting factor here is the precision in 32-bit floating point. Long story short, we should be able to do at least what you see in similar apps (a few hundred) I need to crunch the numbers and see where the precision limit is. Right now the only limit is the time."



Nov 10, 2017 at 05:43 AM
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