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A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?
  
 
sebbe
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


pgeorges wrote:
As someone looking to come back to Sony from Nikon, skin tones are really important. I always had a hard time getting skin tones looking natural with the A7II an A7rII, with my Nikon D750 I haven't worried about it in years. Just set the white balance and that's it.

There are not too many raw samples of the A7rIII to go off just yet, but I'm using the following source:

A7rIII:

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_a7r_iii_review/preview_images

A9:

http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a9_photos/

Loading some of the raw samples into Capture One Pro 10.2.1 (which supports the A7rIII) skin tones from the A9 files just look great with a simple white balance and contrast
...Show more

I'm not sure these are advances.
Skin has a lot of different colors and is very prone to reflect other colors. All the beauty photography suggest a face should be of one hue value. And in my oppinion at least Canon try to support that in their sensor-readout-algorithm. Also the default profiles in LR/C1 do that. This is why often people favorise Canon-skin-colors. But this does not mean they are good, accurate or whatever.

Sorry I can't remember where I read it, but someone said the a9 (and a7RIII) does a better job with reading out the green channels (over the a7RII). Here again it's not sure this "better job" brings you closer to the reality. It may only mean that you get colors that pleases you more.

The good thing is, you can profile your camera for your favorite raw-converter with color-references of your choice. This will reduce any algorithm changes to a minimal (inperceptible) value. Therefore if you want the most realistic skin colors create a profile for it (or let it profile for you). If you want the most pleasing skin colors create a style for it (or also a profile which includes your preferences).



Nov 07, 2017 at 10:57 AM
BokehBeauty
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


If it is so easy to profile a camera, why is it that we see very few natural skin tone portraits. The Sony FE image thread has more than 2500 pages, very very few are portraits, and I could find only 1..2 hand full of portraits with NATURAL and PLEASANT skin tones. Many others almost call for a Liver cancer therapy. I donít count the portraits of models with layers of make-up. And there are regularly contributions from skilled photographer here, which discuss the Sony issue.

I came from Minolta 7D to Sony A700 and after the pleasant Minolta colors the Sony skin tones and greens (correctable) were a nightmare. Now I have a RX1RII and even with this beauty I need much PP time to get the skin tones pleasant.



Nov 07, 2017 at 12:30 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


ajamils wrote:
Since Sony specifically mentioned "Improved skin tones" in their promo video for A7rIII, I am hoping that's the case because that was one of the reasons I sold A7rII. I mostly shoot jpegs and I was never happy with the skin colors product by that camera. Even in RAW I had to do a lot of PP to get them right.

On the other hand the pictures that I've seen from A9 seem to indicate that Sony has definitely improved their color science and jpeg engine. If there is further improvement to the in A7rIII then it would be great!


This will be JPG only. RAW is at the mercy of software conversion, not capture quality. If Sony had a usable RAW converter, then you could blame/praise them for the cameras' colors, as they would be specifically what the manufacturer intends their RAWs to look like. And even then, RAWs have a ridiculously large amount of flexibility (limited only by noise/DR), so you could just use one of the now-many RAW converters out there to get what look you prefer.


BokehBeauty wrote:
If it is so easy to profile a camera, why is it that we see very few natural skin tone portraits. The Sony FE image thread has more than 2500 pages, very very few are portraits, and I could find only 1..2 hand full of portraits with NATURAL and PLEASANT skin tones. Many others almost call for a Liver cancer therapy. I donít count the portraits of models with layers of make-up. And there are regularly contributions from skilled photographer here, which discuss the Sony issue.

I came from Minolta 7D to Sony A700 and after the pleasant Minolta colors the
...Show more

There are at least a few reasons I can think of:

1. People don't know about it. All these reviews that praise colors of different cameras, and people buying the cameras for either what comes out of the cameras' JPGs or Lightroom profiles.

2. People don't want to spend additional money on profiling software and charts.

3. People think it's a complex process.

I remember not liking the color much on my first camera that shot RAW (Nikon D90), and I got started with color profiling even back then. I was glad I did with my next camera, the D7000, as the colors from Adobe looked closer to a Fuji film simulation than anything that could be considered "Standard". Things eased up a bit with my next D7100 and D750, but as usual, they still benefited from extra help. Moved on to Sony (NEX-6 -> A6000 -> A6300), and wow. The quality of the profiles plummeted. I was absolutely glad I knew how to profile, so I wouldn't be stuck with the horrible colors Adobe offered.




Nov 07, 2017 at 12:48 PM
sebbe
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


BokehBeauty wrote:
If it is so easy to profile a camera, why is it that we see very few natural skin tone portraits. The Sony FE image thread has more than 2500 pages, very very few are portraits, and I could find only 1..2 hand full of portraits with NATURAL and PLEASANT skin tones. Many others almost call for a Liver cancer therapy. ...


I'm just curious which one you find natural and pleasant?

Current processing tend to increased contrast, saturation and brighter exposure. Maybe this is the reason you find that few?



Nov 07, 2017 at 12:48 PM
ZachOly
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I think "skin tones" is an overblown issue, with 99% of the variation caused by lens choice, environmental conditions and how they react to an individuals own skin pigments.

I'm a wedding shooter so obviously I deal with some horrendous light, color casts and varying skin tones. Never once had an skin tone issue because of my sensor lmao



Nov 07, 2017 at 01:13 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


ZachOly wrote:
I think "skin tones" is an overblown issue, with 99% of the variation caused by lens choice, environmental conditions and how they react to an individuals own skin pigments.

I'm a wedding shooter so obviously I deal with some horrendous light, color casts and varying skin tones. Never once had an skin tone issue because of my sensor lmao


I can see that. White balance does play a huge role in getting skin tones right. And balancing what looks right in the scene, vs what looks right on the skin (which is just a fraction of the scene), does take a good amount of experience and restraint. Then again, if you process for something other than realistic (muted, punchy, vintage, etc.) it's easy to ignore inaccuracies in skin tones, as other colors will be skewed, as well. What is your style?



Nov 07, 2017 at 01:23 PM
ZachOly
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


If anyone's looked at the Mastin Labs presets, you'll notice that they just use the LR standard profile. And the adjustment differences between Sony, Canon and Nikon "packs" are so minor that it's impossible to tell the difference unless you know what colors/luminance to be looking for.

And this is a preset company OBSESSED with matching digital to film.



Nov 07, 2017 at 01:24 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


ZachOly wrote:
If anyone's looked at the Mastin Labs presets, you'll notice that they just use the LR standard profile. And the adjustment differences between Sony, Canon and Nikon "packs" are so minor that it's impossible to tell the difference unless you know what colors/luminance to be looking for.

And this is a preset company OBSESSED with matching digital to film.


I've used RNI film simulations before, and they do something similar. Though they have their own flat profile for each camera. They definitely know how to profile, as every camera I've tested has had a very consistent baseline appearance. Waaay more consistent and color-accurate than Adobe.



Nov 07, 2017 at 01:32 PM
zaphodm
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


RAW is at the mercy of software conversion, not capture quality.

What settings are you using currently in Capture One? Have you tried using the Linear Response curve to overcome the 'overcooking' of the default profiles? It's not really much of a pain once you've set up your profile how you want it, as you can choose to set that as the import default and you have a good baseline automatically from then on.

If you are looking for improved colours in-camera for JPEGs (including skin tones), take a look at EOSHD's Pro Color. Does a nice job, and doesn't cost a lot.



Nov 07, 2017 at 02:44 PM
hannes
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


zaphodm wrote:
What settings are you using currently in Capture One? Have you tried using the Linear Response curve to overcome the 'overcooking' of the default profiles.


but you are aware that phaseone profiles seem to be build for use with the standard film curve, so using linear leads to more color problems and changes nothing on the cooked / tuned profile side, it only fixes the high contrast problem.



Nov 08, 2017 at 09:07 AM
 

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zaphodm
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


hannes wrote:
but you are aware that phaseone profiles seem to be built for use with the standard film curve, so using linear leads to more color problems and changes nothing on the cooked / tuned profile side, it only fixes the high contrast problem.


It depends which profiles you use. You aren't limited to using just the built-in ones for the A7rII.



Nov 08, 2017 at 09:33 PM
eleazar123
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


This profiling conversation is extremely interesting to me. Can you guys link to a good place to get started in profiling?

I sold my A7R2 and I'll be getting the A7R3 and I would LOVE to help improve the skin color situation. (I came from the Canon 5D3, so I never had to really worry about skin tones until switching to Sony)

Edited on Nov 09, 2017 at 07:18 PM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2017 at 04:58 PM
xpfloyd
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?




eleazar123 wrote:
This profiling conversation is extremely interesting to me. Can you guys link to a good place to get started in profiling?

I sold my A7R2 and I'll be getting the A7R3 and I would LOVE to help improve the skin color situation. (I came from the Canon 5D3, so I never had to really worry about skin tones until switching to Sony)

Was just about to ask the same question! A point in the right direction would be appreciated



Nov 09, 2017 at 05:04 PM
Charlie N
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


eleazar123 wrote:
This profiling conversation is extremely interesting to me. Can you guys link to a good place to get started in profiling?

I sold my A7R2 and I'll be getting the A7R3 and I would LOVE to help improve the skin color situation. (I came from the Canon 5D3, so I never had to really worry about skin tones until switching to Sony)


while it's not the same as profiling via Xrite tools or whatever, you can adjust the camera to behave more like canon. Sony's tend to favor greens, canons tend to favor reds. In the AWB setting, high the right key to go into the customization, and I like to pick biased towards pink to counter the greens.

I still get different colors from different lens manufacturers, but ballpark seems good.



Nov 09, 2017 at 05:51 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Basic kit is an X-Rite ColorChecker Passport and Adobe DNG Profile Editor. There is more complex, paid software out there, along with larger/more complex/more expensive charts, but these are a good start if you're fine with tonality and just want to improve color.


Nov 09, 2017 at 05:55 PM
mttran
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


It would be nice to have an option to load back our desire tonality & WB response curves from our IDC post back to our camera like the way of older canon 1Dseries bodies. Sony, are you listening? you need a good utility function in IDC to fine tune your camera tones and WB. At the mean time we can fine-tuned our camera with CWB and/or then adjust our AWB to your liking like the way Charlie has suggested. First thing I do with my newly purchased cam is calibrating my AWB to save time in post. All cameras have different RGB compensation pointer so they are not the same in WB regardless what brand we have.

Edited on Nov 09, 2017 at 09:21 PM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2017 at 06:08 PM
zaphodm
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


You can do something similar with Picture Profiles, but they do only apply to the JPEGs and not the RAWs.
(I would give more details, but the settings I have are from a commercial product not of my own making)



Nov 09, 2017 at 09:20 PM
Ayoul
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


eleazar123 wrote:
This profiling conversation is extremely interesting to me. Can you guys link to a good place to get started in profiling?

I sold my A7R2 and I'll be getting the A7R3 and I would LOVE to help improve the skin color situation. (I came from the Canon 5D3, so I never had to really worry about skin tones until switching to Sony)


I'm currently in Nikon. Personnaly, I didn't have very good results with DNG Profile Editor, which has no customization and leads to posterization at high isos under some tough lights (ex : indoor with different light spots at a party or wedding).

Lumariver is more complex to understand and will cost you 30$ (if I remember well) but imo the profiles are far more robust. Buying a colorchecker is always better, I have one, but you can even find really decent target shots online on a lot of famous websites, with both daylights and tungsten illuminants.

For my Nikon d750, the results between the profiles resulting from my own target shots and the profiles from carefully chosen raw files found online are very close.

Since I know how to profile more or less properly, I honnestly couldn't care less about the "color rendition" of my camera.

EDIT : This guy on an Italian forum has done several profiles using it and made them available, including an A7RII profile :
https://www.juzaphoto.com/topic2.php?l=it&t=1473256
--> The link doesn't work, I don't know why.

I've found it following this thread (link in the first message) :
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4012529

His Nikon d750 profile is nice, maybe to much desaturated in the yellows for my taste, but it makes nice skin tones. I haven't tried the A7RII profile.



Nov 10, 2017 at 11:45 AM
absolutic
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I experienced incredible difference in A9 vs previous Sony cameras in skintones, I feel Sony finally got skintones right in A9. I did sell A9 to buy A7RIII because I believe A7RIII will suit me better, and I hope the skintones from A9 migrated to A7R3. Keeping my fingers crossed


Nov 10, 2017 at 06:15 PM
SONYRX1
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Yes, the A9 skin tone, auto WB and smoother color transitions in skin tones is why we bought 2 A9 cameras. We have used many Sony full and crop cameras, Nikons up to the D810, Canons including 5DSr and 5DMKIII. A9 is the best Sony for skin tones in our opinion. Our shooting includes fast moving subjects, engagement, wedding, competitions, etc. RAW is not an option for our margins. A9 jpegs need little if any adjustments. Highly recommended.


Nov 10, 2017 at 09:43 PM
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