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A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?
  
 
pgeorges
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


As someone looking to come back to Sony from Nikon, skin tones are really important. I always had a hard time getting skin tones looking natural with the A7II an A7rII, with my Nikon D750 I haven't worried about it in years. Just set the white balance and that's it.

There are not too many raw samples of the A7rIII to go off just yet, but I'm using the following source:

A7rIII:

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_a7r_iii_review/preview_images

A9:

http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a9_photos/

Loading some of the raw samples into Capture One Pro 10.2.1 (which supports the A7rIII) skin tones from the A9 files just look great with a simple white balance and contrast curve. The A7rIII files however are just a mess at least in this example. Weird yellows, magenta tints... it's just all over the place.

It seems Sony made some big advances with colors on the A9 camera that have not filtered down to the A7rIII.

Is it just me?



Nov 06, 2017 at 06:48 AM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Are you planning to shoot JPG or RAW? JPGs are limited to what the camera can produce, but RAWs are only limited by the quality of the software used. Is it possible that Capture One's support is only in beta, and will get better with the final release? If not, there's really no excuse for Capture One, since colors are hardly limited in RAW.


Nov 06, 2017 at 10:00 AM
pgeorges
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Are you planning to shoot JPG or RAW? JPGs are limited to what the camera can produce, but RAWs are only limited by the quality of the software used. Is it possible that Capture One's support is only in beta, and will get better with the final release? If not, there's really no excuse for Capture One, since colors are hardly limited in RAW.


Respectfully, I really don't want to get into the discussion of additional post work. I'd personally prefer a camera and software combination that gets me to a good starting point by default. It happens with the A9 and the many Nikon cameras I've used and I don't want to go back to the experience I had with the A7rII.

Perhaps Capture One's support will get better but based on how A7rII files continue to look out of the box I somehow feel that's not going to happen.



Nov 06, 2017 at 10:17 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I think itís to early to tell. I use C1 also but Iím not so sure we are seeing final production images yet. So to early to call it as Sony could still be tweaking it.


Nov 06, 2017 at 10:37 AM
pgeorges
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


GMPhotography wrote:
I think itís to early to tell. I use C1 also but Iím not so sure we are seeing final production images yet. So to early to call it as Sony could still be tweaking it.


Did you notice a big skin tone improvement going to your A9 or is it just my imagination?



Nov 06, 2017 at 10:59 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


A little better on the A9 for sure. I need to start downloading some of these A3 images. I updated C1 already need start analyzing them but Sony maybe tweaking there algorithms in final production. Usually thatís the last task on new builds

Problem with skin tones itís hard to find a perfect one to go by. Many people letís say that are Irish for example are mostly light tones with magenta. Italians more bronze tone. Not picking on any one itís just the nature of our backgrounds. Back in the day Kodak had a Shirley for example to go by.



Nov 06, 2017 at 11:02 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


GMPhotography wrote:
A little better on the A9 for sure. I need to start downloading some of these A3 images. I updated C1 already need start analyzing them but Sony maybe tweaking there algorithms in final production. Usually thatís the last task on new builds

Problem with skin tones itís hard to find a perfect one to go by. Many people letís say that are Irish for example are mostly light tones with magenta. Italians more bronze tone. Not picking on any one itís just the nature of our backgrounds. Back in the day Kodak had a Shirley for example to go by.
...Show more

Kodak Shirley Cards ? Before my day. Had to look that one up. Sure enough...
http://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363517842/for-decades-kodak-s-shirley-cards-set-photography-s-skin-tone-standard

"Shirley wasn't really about variation. She was about, 'This is the standard.' And truthfully, in the real world, there is no standard." Bill Pyne, Richard Photo Lab, Hollywood



Nov 06, 2017 at 11:47 AM
3catsinky
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I noticed it, and it was one of the reasons I made the purchase. The A9 has not disappointed in that realm. There are plenty of times I struggle with the RII, not with the A9. I haven't been impressed enough with the A7RIII samples to want to buy one.


Nov 06, 2017 at 12:00 PM
hannes
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


comparing default captureone skin-tone rendering for the Sony a7rII to a good individuell profile reveals much of the shortcomings of c1profiles or their color rendering strategy. p1 tunes the profiles to be useable and robust in a lot of situations and for daylight not to forget. so c1 camera profiles compress skin tones towards a warm red and desaturates them rather strong too. one of the ugly side effects is that you almost never get lips with natural color they always appear too orange. subtiles tone variations are erased but it seems people like it this way. the color differences between cameras are probably much smaller than the effect of the camera profile.


Nov 06, 2017 at 12:02 PM
ZachOly
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


It's impossible to judge skin tones based off of two different cameras shot in two different conditions and of two different subjects.

Wait for the somewhat controlled tests to come out at the end of the month before making a decision.



Nov 06, 2017 at 12:49 PM
 

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BlueBomberTurbo
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


This sounds like same "issue" that's been plaguing Sony cameras in the past: poor software support. I know Adobe's profiles for Sony have been poor in the past. And even on cameras like the Nikon D7000 (worst profile I've seen). This gives Sony a bad reputation as far as color rendition goes, when it's 100% not the fault of the camera.

I've heard continual praise of C1's colors for all cameras, especially now that it's trendy to hate Adobe. Yet it seems they're just as bad as Adobe. I'll continue to use my own profiles that make every camera look equally as good.



Nov 06, 2017 at 12:56 PM
BrandonSi
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I have a family member who has some Native American in their genetic history and for whatever reason, their skin tone always tends towards yellow/green. That was with the A7, A7r, A7Rii, A7s. With the A9 it's noticeably improved. I always used CaptureOne, never tried LR, but I can definitely tell an improvement there with the A9 for sure.


Nov 07, 2017 at 01:47 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Sony did say they improved the color in the A7r3. Will see


Nov 07, 2017 at 01:52 AM
Alexluu627
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Rofl skin tones would go to canon.
Iíve used all the Sony a7x including the Nikon d750 & d810.

The 1ds mark iii and 5d2 had the best out of camera skin tones. Next is pretty obvious mamiya digital backs.



Nov 07, 2017 at 01:57 AM
dclark
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


I am always surprised to read comments posted by professional photographers that don't seem to profile their cameras. I am pretty sure they regularly profile their monitors and do not depend on the manufacturer. Same for printers. Why not cameras with the lighting they use?


Nov 07, 2017 at 01:59 AM
pgeorges
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


dclark wrote:
I am always surprised to read comments posted by professional photographers that don't seem to profile their cameras. I am pretty sure they regularly profile their monitors and do not depend on the manufacturer. Same for printers. Why not cameras with the lighting they use?


Because in my experience my profiled A7rII (and even trying huelight profiles) still wasn't anywhere near as good as the out of the box D750.

Also, how do you calibrate your camera to the lighting you use when you're shooting a wedding? I'd rather just have a camera where it's not an issue and not waste any time. Time is money!



Nov 07, 2017 at 02:27 AM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


pgeorges wrote:
Because in my experience my profiled A7rII (and even trying huelight profiles) still wasn't anywhere near as good as the out of the box D750.

Also, how do you calibrate your camera to the lighting you use when you're shooting a wedding? I'd rather just have a camera where it's not an issue and not waste any time. Time is money!


You only have to profile once per camera. Even just a daylight profile (full sun at noon) will be better than C1/LR default, though you can add an incandescent dual illuminant, too. Unless you're reproducing art, making profiles under each and every lighting source will only add unnecessary complexity to the editing process, with little improvement over a dual illuminant profile (which profiles the extreme end of artificial lighting).



Nov 07, 2017 at 03:07 AM
pgeorges
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
You only have to profile once per camera. Even just a daylight profile (full sun at noon) will be better than C1/LR default, though you can add an incandescent dual illuminant, too. Unless you're reproducing art, making profiles under each and every lighting source will only add unnecessary complexity to the editing process, with little improvement over a dual illuminant profile (which profiles the extreme end of artificial lighting).


It's just never worked for me with the A7rII. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong or perhaps it's just down to taste. I think the A9 is closer to the Nikon colours which may be why I like it, not necessarily due to it being accurate.



Nov 07, 2017 at 03:09 AM
ajamils
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


Since Sony specifically mentioned "Improved skin tones" in their promo video for A7rIII, I am hoping that's the case because that was one of the reasons I sold A7rII. I mostly shoot jpegs and I was never happy with the skin colors product by that camera. Even in RAW I had to do a lot of PP to get them right.

On the other hand the pictures that I've seen from A9 seem to indicate that Sony has definitely improved their color science and jpeg engine. If there is further improvement to the in A7rIII then it would be great!

pgeorges wrote:
As someone looking to come back to Sony from Nikon, skin tones are really important. I always had a hard time getting skin tones looking natural with the A7II an A7rII, with my Nikon D750 I haven't worried about it in years. Just set the white balance and that's it.

There are not too many raw samples of the A7rIII to go off just yet, but I'm using the following source:

A7rIII:

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_a7r_iii_review/preview_images

A9:

http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a9_photos/

Loading some of the raw samples into Capture One Pro 10.2.1 (which supports the A7rIII) skin tones from the A9 files just look great with a simple white balance and contrast
...Show more




Nov 07, 2017 at 04:27 AM
hannes
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · A7rIII skin tones still not to A9 levels?


dclark wrote:
I am always surprised to read comments posted by professional photographers that don't seem to profile their cameras. I am pretty sure they regularly profile their monitors and do not depend on the manufacturer. Same for printers. Why not cameras with the lighting they use?


it is more complex and the industry does a lot to make them believe good color and skin tones are only a question of software and camera combination. so they never go to ask what colors do i want and what do i need to know to get them. in other words they simply lack the skills to get it right.




Nov 07, 2017 at 07:27 AM
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