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Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?
  
 
takomaru
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Wilbus, no worries there are a lot of points to consider here. Not everyone's workflow or shooting is similar, we all have different uses for a camera, and those are specific applications, meaning that you have to go out there to do only that, nothing else; then it all takes a lot of testing and tweaking to get somewhere; whereas normal handlin everyday use it's easier to grow with it and fast; I can use the Pen F for daily shooting without an effort and mostly manually, because it's all I do with it.

I never had experience with the EM1 only the EM5 II and to the EM1 II was a large upgrade, they are not compareable, so replacing it is not an issue as you'd probably gain more from the G9, high ISO 5000 up is clean in the samples, no way with the Oly; also the review on the 200/2.8 is terrific You're right in the HiRes mode, implementation in the Oly adds functionality, being this the first iteration from Panasonic it'll probably grow, I am not sure if FW updates can add functionality and modes, stacking should've been there with the burst speed capability.

Higher ISO impresses me the most for daily shooting, action, sports, Oly is very limiting for me, the reason it's mostly on a tripod.. This guy's video on the G9 talks a little on the tracking about 28-30 minutes in, also I liked his video on the 200, if you haven't seen them give it a go, the hight ISO shots where eye opening as the EM1 II simply can't, http://www.photobyrichard.com/reviewbyrichard/
The DFD vs the hybrid would be interesting, the no blackout and the great EVF are certainly not to overlook, I really wished eye tracking would've been an option; tracking action is difficult, erratic movements surfing very hard to keep up with, if on the water a wide angle and a housing work terrific; I shot my friends surfing Peru and Hawaii with manual focusing inside the curls with my old belly board much later updated to a fast modern board, but mostly with wides or long lenses from shore.

That 200 seems to focus very fast, I don't know how the Oly 300/4 fares; depending on the compatibility and loose of functions it could be very taxing if used on the Oly, as the guy explanation on contrast detection added info on distance from the camera and even sapled the bokeh, that would be very hard to carry through. They are never going to go to 100% compatibility; refreshment rate up to 120, so the evf must be clear & clean to focus fully stabilized, this combination does sound terrific, but all must be tested, I wouldn't line up in any preorders no matter what I was assured of until I tested it myself, files and all.

The A7R has remained static in price for a year plus, new A7R II at 2000 and A7R III not out yet, yes Sony is my other system so it's always on the table, in a water housing they make terrific platforms, seen best with the A9, I don't dive anymore and no surfing here that could merit shooting, it all happened in in another life...I wish I could've had ANY of these...




Nov 09, 2017 at 08:10 AM
Wilbus
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Indeed there are, and as always, one can never get everything one wants it seems like.

Not only do the different cameras make the choices hard but also the lenses. Just like you say, I don't think there will ever be a complete cooperation between Panasonic and Olympus but it would be nice if there was.
The G9 looks great in very many ways and in particular for wild life and sports. But this really only goes if the AF can track somewhat good. Hopefully they will have solved this with DFD. The GH5 was VERY fast to focus with my Olympus lenses, faster then the E-M1 surprisingly.

No the E-M1 is nowhere near clean at ISO 5000 if if that is the case with the G9 I will get it for that alone. However, it's probably hard to judge from the JPG samples so far.
Sounds like you've gone through almost every different shooting condition in your career, surfing being one that I would love to do more. Wide angle and underwater housing is one way although expensive but it does give a very cool angle of the sport.

DFD samples bokeh from every Panasonic lens and adds it to the focus algorithm. What surprised me with the GH5 was the speed it focuses (S-AF) even with Oly lenses.

It's nice to see the A7R has remained static in price, this hasn't been the case with prior Sonys as they release new versions almost too often rather than fix what is broken through firmware updates. Hopefully the cameras will keep their price a little better in the future rather than being something to buy, use a year and sell cheap after that. I have been thinking of the A7R versions many a times but I just don't like the system, or rather, the handling. Also, getting long lenses for either FF system would be outside my budget. That or they would be too large to bring on a multi day hike away from civilization which is the goal for the future. A m43 system with 12-40, 40-150 and a 300 F4 or the 200 F2.8 with TC 1.4 will still run pretty light and small

Regards

Rasmus



Nov 09, 2017 at 09:08 AM
jimmy462
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?



johnvanr wrote:
Oh, yes, the FF 400/2.8 lenses would be ridiculously expensive (and heavy), but I have trouble with accepting what must be an extremely high markup for this lens. A 200/2.8 isn’t the feat a real 400/2.8 is. If we follow this lens’s logic, the Olympus is on par with a FF 600/4 at $10,000. I don’t think it is.

I think this winter is supposed to be colder than the last two years, so maybe those eagles will return. In the meantime, Conowingo beckons...


Well, in defense of lens-makers I can say confidently, from my astro-dabblings over the years, that precision optics deservedly fetch top dollar...not to say that the "corporation glass" doesn't include a fair bit of "pillow stuffing" for CEO pay and shareholder profits in their pricing! Ha! I'm just saying that I'll take +1/10th-wave optics over 1/4-wave optics any day for my telescopes (where they fit my budget), and that I understand and accept the vast price differences to buy at that level of optical clarity! "True dat" (as my daughter would say), too, for camera lenses.

P.S. I hope we can provide reason for you to visit us on the banks in February!



Nov 09, 2017 at 02:16 PM
jimmy462
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


takomaru wrote:
Jimmy G, thank you for the links; they did claim preproduction model that maybe quality not up to par...I'd like to see the HiRes with the moving water in well produced shots, as the samples of the running water jpges didn't show much, but did show better quality than the original EM5 II as those where loaded with arifacts, also the leaves are full of movent, will wait until well made samples are available.

In the high ISO shots from Robin Wong's page, high ISO looked clean, ISO 500 and up, I couldn't say that on the EM1 II as I
...Show more

Hi takomaru,

Could you provide a link to the Robin Wong page to which you're referring, I'm not sure which camera your speaking about in regards to his "high ISO shots" and I'd love to take a look!

From your later comments...

takomaru wrote:
>snip<
Higher ISO impresses me the most for daily shooting, action, sports, ...
>snip<


This is a very important point for me in considering a camera these days...shooting during the day at up to ISO 6400 is not uncommon (or surprising to me anymore) as I need this range of ISO to maintain a 1/1000th shutter speed when shooting under a deeply wooded canopy. My old 7D couldn't deliver in this regard to my satisfaction and I waited and waited for someone to finally make an APS-C body that could "go there"...enter the a6300.

But this camera (a6300) is an ergonomic nightmare (Read: Unintended setting changes from basic field handling! Sunlight pouring onto one's eyeball while trying to look through the EVF at golden hour! Ha!) and I'm already looking for another—this time around—well-thought-out camera body also offering a usable ISO 6400 for the bulk of what I do. And so it was that I found myself at the Panasonic booth at the PhotoPlus Expo last month investigating the GH5. (Sony can certainly learn more than a few things from Panny in regards to human ergonomics...well, IMHO! Ha!)

And now a G9 to choose from...life sometimes goes one's way (fingers crossed). In the meantime I'll just bide my time until I can tear apart some high-ISO RAW files when they become available for review.


Jimmy G



Nov 09, 2017 at 03:05 PM
bobbytan
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Rasmus, I have no doubts that the background rendering on the PL 200.2.8 will be far superior to the Olympus 40-150 and 300/4.

Is the price outrageous? Let's compare the stats of the PL 200/2.8 to the Canon 400/2.8L:

Size: 6.85” x 3.44” vs 13.5” x 6.42” (1/2 the size)
Weight: 2.75 lbs vs 8.49 lbs (1/3 the weight)
Price: $3,000 (with a TC) vs $10,000 (less than 1/3 the price w/o the TC)

Only you can decide if this lens is overpriced. I think it's priced fairly, as fast tele lenses have always been incredibly expensive to make.

Wilbus wrote:
I am very split with this lens. Is it an OK price or is it outrageous? I know there is no other system that would allow me this small size, with 400mm FOV and F2.8 speed. And as such, the price would be OK. But I also can't help feel that this is indeed a 200mm F2.8 lens. Should it really cost more then the latest, greatest Nikon and Canon 70-200mm F2.8 lenses?





Nov 09, 2017 at 04:06 PM
takomaru
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Jimmy G, I did put the link in my response to Wilbus; but my apologies, it was not Robin Wong but Richard Wong, I didn't realize I wrote the name out of memory, as I was lookind at his reviews, rather than from the name on the video presentation which I did not have open, my bad.

It always struck me how low actually high ISO is in Oly, the reason it's not an all around camera for constant use for myneeds. I shoot street and bars a lot, some pitch dark, at night nothing beats my A7S body, which I paired with the A7R initially, I mostly use old manual glass with both, I mainly prefer old 1940-50 glass, not really sharp modern glass, my only manual for street is probably the Voigtlander 35/1.2 II; ISO 6400 and higher should be standard nowadays; I do agree that Sony menues are not unobtrussive, I try not to dig into menues when manually, no AF, no eye focusing or detections, just plain shooting on basics ISO, exposure compensation, aperture speed...as higher ISO is needed inside bars, so is higher speeds in parties or coyotes where there is always movement involved, but also can shoot a bit of movement by dragging the shutter as desired not out of need, big difference in too much noise on pushing higher ISO.

Telephotos at 2.8 have an history on expensive glass and thought well before purchasing, film use before 300/2.8 was an accomplishment, I used this in pasarelas and fashion shows all the way to the horse race tracks at night; was the main reason for me to buy the Sony A mount 135/1.8 & 300/2.8, the last one very costly and used it a lot, just traded it for a Linhof Technika 3000, for my use now my favorite camera, but I use film a lot, print from film and also digital.

Wilbus, wind surfing does require longer glass than surfing; I grew up on the beach in Peru, school days where the beginning of surfing back in 67-68, I had an M3 back then, that couldn't hit the water, mostly Surfer magazines photographers friends of mine used Nikons, I had no idea what long lenses where; we also did a lot of diving, bought my 1st Hasselblad and underwater housing for it. I had no underwater housing for 35mm til 1975 when moved to California, same friends, same ocean and same waves as was Hawaii after, underwater housing in the 35mm, gave mobility, different lens coverage and started shooting in the waves, terrific experience; nowadays an underwater housing with a fast digital ISOless cameras, fast glass must be an awesome experience and photo field, I am too old now, but try it if you can, a lot more possibilities of amazing photo; I see now surfing photos in the Artic shot from the water, a new breed, not jealous, just modern times, but if I could I'd put it all into it.

The reviewer on the 200/2.8 did emphazise a few times on the focusing speed of the G9 with the lens also that it was faster than the GH5 and he used the camera for 2 weeks and should give him enough time to feel it soundly.



Nov 09, 2017 at 05:39 PM
Wilbus
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


bobbytan wrote:
Rasmus, I have no doubts that the background rendering on the PL 200.2.8 will be far superior to the Olympus 40-150 and 300/4.

Is the price outrageous? Let's compare the stats of the PL 200/2.8 to the Canon 400/2.8L:

Size: 6.85” x 3.44” vs 13.5” x 6.42” (1/2 the size)
Weight: 2.75 lbs vs 8.49 lbs (1/3 the weight)
Price: $3,000 (with a TC) vs $10,000 (less than 1/3 the price w/o the TC)

Only you can decide if this lens is overpriced. I think it's priced fairly, as fast tele lenses have always been incredibly expensive to make.


The more I think of it, and believe me I have thought of the lens a lot the past day, the more I think it is reasonably priced. Even if you compare it to a Canon 400mm F4 it is still almost half the weight, 70% of the size (give or take some) and less then half the price. It also comes with a TC 1.4. Not only that but looking at the MTF it looks to be amazing, almost off the charts but we'll see how it turns out in real life. The bokeh should indeed be better then the Olympus 40-150 and the 300 but again, will have to wait and see. PL lenses usually get the bokeh right though.

Given your comparison, yes the lens is indeed worth the price compared to what you would have to spend with an FF camera. Like I said before, price increases exponentially with fast telephotos and really good glass. 5% extra performance doesn't mean just 5% extra price. Same goes for most things I believe, graphic cards, CPU's, cars etc.



Nov 09, 2017 at 06:34 PM
Wilbus
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


takomaru wrote:
Wilbus, wind surfing does require longer glass than surfing; I grew up on the beach in Peru, school days where the beginning of surfing back in 67-68, I had an M3 back then, that couldn't hit the water, mostly Surfer magazines photographers friends of mine used Nikons, I had no idea what long lenses where; we also did a lot of diving, bought my 1st Hasselblad and underwater housing for it. I had no underwater housing for 35mm til 1975 when moved to California, same friends, same ocean and same waves as was Hawaii after, underwater housing in the 35mm,
...Show more

Again, awesome to hear your experience throughout the years with different gear and different scenarios. I didn't even know Hasselblads ever had underwater housings!
Yes times have moved forward and a underwater housing with a modern camera would be quite awesome, I have too few opportunities to use it as it is now and thus no interest in it. However, as you say, there are some amazing shots from arctic surfing now as well and I am thinking about going up there. While it isn't close it isn't all that far either, I could probably get to one of the best spots in Norway, by car, in maybe 2-3 days with some fair amount of sleep and rest on the way. Love Norway and its nature and there is lots to see on the way up there anyway. I am guessing you might be thinking of Chris Burkards photos from there. He's using Sony A7's and A9 and the shots are indeed superb!

/Rasmus



Nov 09, 2017 at 06:38 PM
bobbytan
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Wilbus wrote:
The more I think of it, and believe me I have thought of the lens a lot the past day, the more I think it is reasonably priced. Even if you compare it to a Canon 400mm F4 it is still almost half the weight, 70% of the size (give or take some) and less then half the price. It also comes with a TC 1.4. Not only that but looking at the MTF it looks to be amazing, almost off the charts but we'll see how it turns out in real life. The bokeh should indeed be better then
...Show more

The MTF chart does look exceedingly impressive, and possibly the best of any m43 lens - even better than the Olympus 300/4 or PL Nocticron. Can't wait for DXO to review and rate this lens. Also a Lenstip review.

http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-lenses/h-es200.html








Nov 09, 2017 at 06:50 PM
whumber
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


bobbytan wrote:
The MTF chart does look exceedingly impressive, and possibly the best of any m43 lens - even better than the Olympus 300/4 or PL Nocticron. Can't wait for DXO to review and rate this lens. Also a Lenstip review.

http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-lenses/h-es200.html


I'm more than a bit skeptical of these MTF charts. If you compare the MTF charts of the PL 100-400 @ 400mm with the Olympus 300 then the PL should significantly sharper than the Olympus everywhere across the frame which is definitely not the case.



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takomaru
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Yes Wilbus, I have seen his work and it's terrific, plus with the wild weather in Norway I'd need a housing on a Sony as it's not very tough weather oriented and shooting close to the water on shore gets you wet not to say the least. But now I have seen a new trend in extreme weather surfing, kayaking, that it's all fantastic and quite unthinkable in the past, a lot of video and stills on A7 cameras..

Hasselblad made fantastic underwater housings, actually a few. I've had 3 in all my underwater photo life, with a 70mm cassette it gave 70 exposures and that was the top the world could offer, until Nikon put the Nikonos out, small, handy, functional, gorgeous glass.

If film is a viable alternative in your shooting, I would suggest you look for an old Nikonos Y camera in ebay, dirty cheap and amazing camera, you'd be surprised, terrific glass, as an all weather camera hard to beat, a full set with 15, 28, 35mm, strobes about 1200 bucks; you'll never find a Nauticam housin for digital cameras,for less than double!.

I wrote Richard from his contact form and asked him what I thought I wanted to know on the G9 High Res implementation, got a fast response on my mail early; my suggestion would be to do the same on any questions you might have on the G9 and the 200/2.8 as he handled it for two weeks and his response to me was good, and not what I wanted to hear



Nov 09, 2017 at 11:48 PM
bobbytan
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


I am anxious to see the reviews from DXO and Lenstip, and other review sites. This is probably the best lens from Panasonic-Leica.

whumber wrote:
I'm more than a bit skeptical of these MTF charts. If you compare the MTF charts of the PL 100-400 @ 400mm with the Olympus 300 then the PL should significantly sharper than the Olympus everywhere across the frame which is definitely not the case.





Nov 10, 2017 at 12:18 AM
takomaru
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Bobbytan, totally agree with you on this lens, for me there would be no vs 300/4, my experience with Canon 300 2.8 vs f4 was no contest even on film, but I have no experience with long glass in m43, as long as accurate focusing is there and fast, couldn't comment on tracking.

Interestingly in Europe the G9 price offer includes the grip for free, quite a bonus; this shaves quite a bit of the top as adding the cost does give you a much.steeper price, as this would be a must for that combo.



Nov 10, 2017 at 01:57 AM
jrsforums
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


whumber wrote:
Any word if the G9 will drop to low resolution in burst mode like the GH5? I'm thinking this will be a great second body if it can maintain resolution like the E-M1ii.


If you mean 12 to 10bit when in electronic shutter, cameras PRIOR to GH5 did that. The GH5 is all 12bit stills, as, I am sure, the G9 will.




Nov 10, 2017 at 07:31 AM
Mikehit
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


takomaru wrote:
...really hoping someone would mention focus bracketing, or focus stacking or something similar to Live Composite Mode, or Live Mode or Time Mode. u


The full specifications on the Panasonic website shows it has focus bracketing which is one thing I was hoping for
1 to 999 images, focus steps can be set in 10 levels


https://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-compact-system-cameras/dc-g9.html

I think the Panasonic 'Light Composition' is the equivalent of Olympus 'Live Composite' but I can't find anything equivalent to Olympus 'Live Bulb' which I think is a great function






Nov 10, 2017 at 09:20 AM
takomaru
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Mikehit, terrific this is what I was hoping for, thank you for posting; I did ask Richard one of the testers, he spent 2 weeks with the camera, it is obvious that these people don't get into real camera menues, modes and real professional functionality, it makes me wonder how they pick these testers as all they can talk is about lens and focus speed and tracking, very obvious superfuous stuff, they should pick real photographers that know how to max the potential of a platform...this now makes me very interested in the G9, high ISO is way on top of my EM1 II, as the Oly is quite skimpy here, tracking not important for me, but accurate focuse and fast one sure is, image quality probably on par at lower ISO.

In the Sony forum they have a very good thread on the loss of Play Memories, mostly Smooth Reflections as widely used, and how to find a way around it to add similar functions to the new Sonys, there is Arsenal, coming out, still won't support newer cameras, but they say they will add support to Oly and Panasonic in the future, so I thought this could also benefit the G9 as both won't be available til next nesr.



Nov 10, 2017 at 11:13 PM
Wilbus
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Found this, some full res shots from the 200 F2.8 posted by Panasonic. You can download the full size or just look at them on the page. The info says 800mm eq in 35mm terms so should be with the TC2.0.
The cheetah shot looks very nice but the two elephants looks a bit weird to me, soft or missed focus? Or is it the mud on them screwing with my eyes?

http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/panasonic_leica_dg_elmarit_200mm_f2_8_power_ois_photos/

Edit: Richard Wong iso updates his page on the 200 F2.8 with EXIF for the samples including quite a few with the TC1.4 and the TC2.0.

He also updates his G9 section (I think, might have missed it the first time) with EXIF and some more shots. Interesting enough, while these are JPGs from the camera and not full size, he's posted quite a few high ISO shots. The highest being 12800 which although at a smaller size looks really usable. He also posted one 8000 and one 5000 that both look good. It'll be interesting to see/try some real RAW samples.

If I am lucky, I might be able to bring some with me on Monday when a local camera store has got Panasonic got a visit to show the G9 but somehow I am guessing I won't be allowed to bring the photos with me home.

G9: http://www.photobyrichard.com/reviewbyrichard/panasonic-lumix-g9-review/

200 F2.9: http://www.photobyrichard.com/reviewbyrichard/leica-200mm-f2-8-review/




Nov 11, 2017 at 08:38 AM
Wilbus
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3761060711/panasonic-g9-high-resolution-mode

High res testing the G9 at Preview. Some slightly longer exposures as well. As far as the resolution goes, I am very impressed. Look at photo number 5 and look in to the windows in the left. You can see what has been written on the white boards. Also, look at the windows furthest down the street, you can actually make out paintings inside the windows.

I thought Panasonic, somewhere said the high res was limited to 1/8 second exposure but it seems like preview uses longer than that. If limited in exposure time it will be a real shame since the E-M1.2 can be real creative with long exposures and water.



Nov 11, 2017 at 02:34 PM
Mikehit
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


Wilbus wrote:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3761060711/panasonic-g9-high-resolution-mode

High res testing the G9 at Preview. Some slightly longer exposures as well. As far as the resolution goes, I am very impressed. Look at photo number 5 and look in to the windows in the left. You can see what has been written on the white boards. Also, look at the windows furthest down the street, you can actually make out paintings inside the windows.

I thought Panasonic, somewhere said the high res was limited to 1/8 second exposure but it seems like preview uses longer than that. If limited in exposure time it will be a real shame
...Show more


The reference I see to 1/8 sec in the DPR article is one that balances the movement seen because of the time it takes to take the set of pixel shift images and natural motion blur. So it sounds as if the pixel shift resulted in an artificial-looking overlap of stills but the 1/8 ave a more natural feel.

it also says
If you're thinking about an even slower shutter speed, once you get down to 1/2 sec or so, pedestrians largely just disappear from your frame, leaving barely a shadow for you to notice. Of course, this could be an advantage if you're wanting to eliminate people from your photos, without necessarily needing an ND filter and a 30-second exposure.
We tried an even longer exposure to see if we could get the motion artifacts to 'disappear' with subjects moving fast enough across the scene, but we still could see some - check out the car taillights and the ground surrounding them in
...Show more

which suggests you can go for much longer than 1/8sec



Nov 13, 2017 at 11:12 AM
Wilbus
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Expectations on the new Panasonic camera?


@Mikehit yes indeed it does suggest one should be able to get much slower speeds but I was confused to say the least. Thanks for reading the article thoroughly and setting it a bit more straight!




Nov 13, 2017 at 02:02 PM
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