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LR CAT & back up question
  
 
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · LR CAT & back up question


I have a confusing, for me, situation this morning. I decided to format my ext. HD that I use for my back up drive because I went thru my photos on my LR ext HD over the past few weeks deleted several hundred unwanted files that were just taking up space. I wanted the back up drive to back up only the current files on my LR HD. Everything went well until the back up finished this morning and first thing I noticed was the back up drive used about 200GB less than whats on my LR HD! Then I noticed that the folders didn't match whats on my LR HD, they were in some cases old folders that had been merged with others or deleted. Then I find what confuses me and I don't know how to correct it. When I open my LR HD I click on LR CC Cat.lrcat. which opens "Robert's photos" in LR CC. I see all my current folders. This is where I delete, merge and create new folders. BUT if I just open "Robert's photos" on the LR HD without opening LR I see all the old lists of folders that the back up drive copied. Is there a way to make my back up HD have the same lists selection as the LR CAT? FWIW, I back up "robert's photos" AND LR CAT. All comments welcome. I don't want to lose any files but want them to look the same.

thanks, Robert



Oct 28, 2017 at 02:09 PM
rdeloe
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · LR CAT & back up question


Are you using backup software, or just copying things over? If you're using actual backup software, you should be able to set it up to make sure destination matches source. The program I use (SyncBackPro) has a setting I use in cases like this where I can do a "dry run". That lets me confirm that it's not going to delete anything from source.

Or you could just delete the folder on destination and copy the whole source folder over ....



Oct 28, 2017 at 02:55 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · LR CAT & back up question


I use Carbon Copy Cloner. The problem I see is the difference between Robert's Photos and LR CAT on my LR HD. It looks like the back up drive gets the folder Robert's Photos and LR Cat but they aren't the same. LR Cat has up to date folders but Robert's Photos doesn't and I don't know why. I thought changes in LR directly changed Robert's Photos. When I open Robert's Photos in LR CC I see up to date folders but if I just right click the LR HD and open Robert's Photos I see old folders from time gone by and this is what the back up gets.



Oct 28, 2017 at 03:02 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · LR CAT & back up question


No matter where you put a Lr catalog it will look for its photos where it did before - until you change the catalog.

When you delete photos within Lr it may not delete empty folders, but even if it does, it will not delete the folder if it contains other files that Lr does not normally show you. they could be Photos that have not yet been imported, photos that have been removed but not deleted, anything at all put there by Windows or other software.

I don't think there is simple a way to do what you want. You can export a Lr catalog but that will not export the image files. You can use other software to copy the image files and folders, but it will not know which files are or are not in the Lr catalog.

- Alan




Nov 02, 2017 at 01:25 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · LR CAT & back up question


Thanks Alan. I understand your point but does this really describe my problem. I never import any files to my ext. HD that don't import thru LR. It seems odd to me that when I look at "Robert's Photos" with LR open I see my organized folders as I have made them but if I open "Robert's Photos" without LR open I see old deleted folders, folders out of place and a random file or two. I always assumed deleting, moving or consolidating folders done in LR WAS affecting the HD in general. I would like my back up HD to look like my active HD. Am I dreaming?


Nov 02, 2017 at 02:03 PM
rdeloe
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · LR CAT & back up question


If you use Export as a Catalogue, you can export the catalogue and all related source image files. The folder structure will come with the export.

Alan321 wrote:
I don't think there is simple a way to do what you want. You can export a Lr catalog but that will not export the image files. You can use other software to copy the image files and folders, but it will not know which files are or are not in the Lr catalog.

- Alan






Nov 02, 2017 at 03:04 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · LR CAT & back up question


I use Carbon Copy Cloner to copy the cat. to my back up. I back up Robert's Photos and the LR Cat. to my back up.


Nov 02, 2017 at 04:00 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · LR CAT & back up question


Robert, we need to clarify some terminology. Or at least I do. However, don't read this while you're as sleepy as I am now

Firstly, an Lr catalog is a database of information about your photo library and it generally looks like a single something.lrcat file. It is not your actual library of photos, which comprises one or more folders on one or more drives (or volumes) containing zero or more photo files and zero or more sidecar files (.xmp).

Secondly, when you open "Robert's Photos" are you referring to an OSX Volume, or to a Lr catalog, or to a folder that contains the library ? Have you used the same name for any of them ? (it is possible) {Windows uses unique drive letters and a colon, such as D:, to identify drives and volumes. We can name them too, but the names mean nothing to Windows}

Thirdly, when you "open" it, are you double-clicking on it ?
If you double click on a Volume or folder then Finder will open it, showing you the names of files and folders that are inside it. Lr will not start up.
If you double click on a catalog then Lr should fire up and open it, but this is where you may come unstuck because if that catalog is a duplicate of the original, then it will look at exactly the original files and folders - not the new duplicate files and folders that CCC put onto the external HD. Hold that thought. In fact, if the original volume was removed then the backup library would find no images to look at, even though you got copies of them on the same backup drive.

You mentioned "folders out of place". That can happen because Lr only shows you the folders that you have told it to (whether knowingly or not). Consider an example but it might pay to scribble these down on a sheet of paper: You have two folders A & B at the same level on your drive and two more, C and D, under B. If there's a bunch of photos and folders under folder C and another under folder D and another under folder A, then Lr may let you see C, D and A in any sequence you wish, such as C, A, D. They don't have to sort alphabetically. BUT if you tell Lr to also show the parent folder of C, which is B, then it will do that and it will show both C and D under B. Even though you did not tell Lr to show the parent folder of D, it knows that it already showing it as the parent of C and so it links B and D too. However, it will no longer show "A" between "C" and "D" because "A" is not a child folder under "B". Result... your folders list has been apparently changed and in a longer list you may not even notice that "A" is still there but shown in a different (correct) position. The same thing would happen if you put a photo file in folder B and imported that folder into the catalog - even without specifically telling Lr that B is the parent folder of C and D, it will figure it out and rearrange the folder list accordingly.

One way to avoid this problem is to have a folder that is at the top of the hierarchy of all folders that contain images, and have Lr display that folder. Then the rest of hierarchy always falls into place where they belong and you will not get used to them being in an unnatural sequence.

A few paragraphs up I told you to "hold that thought" where the backup catalog was not actually looking at the backup photos. The solution is to open that catalog, right click on the highest parent folder (this is why I choose to have a single parent folder when I can) and select "Update folder location". Then point to the backup of that highest parent folder instead of the original. Lr will adjust the catalog contents so that all references to the photos that the catalog thought were below that one original folder are now actually referring to the backup photos below the backup folder.

A mud map would have made this easier to understand but I can't post one at present. Draw your own and you'll understand it better and for longer



Nov 03, 2017 at 04:43 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · LR CAT & back up question


Thanks Alan. I know I'm using LR CAT a little loosely and I do know that the CAT only has the file names that go with given files. I tried to post a screen shot but that didn't work so I'll just type what I see when I open my photo HD.

> Installer
> photos by rv
> roberts lightroom CC catalog
> backups
> lightroom settings
roberts lightroom CC Cat previews.lrcat
roberts lightroom CC Catalog.lrcat
Temporary import data.db
temporary import data.db-journal

If I click on roberts lightroom CC catalog.lrcat then LR opens and along the left side of the screen I see all the folders in photos RV which are up to date. Obviously this is where I access files to edit, export, delete, etc. All well and good. BUT, if I click the arrow on the left of photos by rv and it opens to show a similar but different list of folders. As I posted earlier I just spent a week consolidating folders, cleaning up trash photos and improving the folder order to make the catalog more streamline but when I do a backup to mu BU HD it's still the old assortment of folders that I see in photos by rv. When I backup with CCC I back up both photos by rv and the LRCC Cat. The other day at my latest back up the photo HD had 200GB MORE than the Backup HD!! Just this morning I also saw in LR that 2 folders had photos that said "can't find this photo" aghh!



Nov 04, 2017 at 03:28 PM
 

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jharter
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · LR CAT & back up question


Sorry if I am a bit glazed over reading the thread. I too use LR, backup everything to an external HD, use Carbon Copy Cloner just like you.

I setup CCC to backup the folder with my LR catalog files. Keep in mind that folder houses several backups of the catalog that occur when I close LR. My catalog file is large so those auto backups from LR take up some space on the backup drive as well.

I have all of my photos in a single folder: "LR Photo Files." I setup CCC to backup that folder as well.

That is all you have to do. If your current, updated and active LR catalog and photo files are intact, then consider re-formatting the backup external HD, make sure CCC is setup to do incremental backups for the folder with the LR Catalogs and the folder with all your photo files. Then do a fresh backup. That will take awhile but after that it will be just incremental backups.



Nov 16, 2017 at 09:37 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · LR CAT & back up question


jharter, thanks for your help. I just upgraded to a newer ver. of CCC and haven't seen the display of folders to copy now so I'll need to do a little looking. I must admit I'm unsure of what an "incremental backup" is. If you have a moment explain further. Thanks, Robert


Nov 19, 2017 at 03:08 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · LR CAT & back up question


Incremental backups are (generally) small backups of whatever has changed since the last backup. The pros include quicker backups that catch recent (perhaps minor) changes without having to re-copy the unchanged bulk of the data. The cons include having to do full restorations in several stages - first from the main backup, and then from each incremental backup in sequence.

Way back in the dark ages, I used incremental backups to tape because tapes were a bit slow - until one day an incremental backup went wrong and scrapped the main index as well as the incremental backup, thus effectively trashing the whole lot. I've never relied on incremental backups since.

Likewise, I never copy from one backup to another because they can both be trashed by the same gremlin that would normally only affect one of the backups at a time.

- Alan



Nov 20, 2017 at 01:34 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · LR CAT & back up question


Alan321 of course, yes I've seen the incremental BUs. Here's the problem I can't get passed. When I open my backup HD in LR I can't see the folders in my master folder "photos by rv" unless I click on "import". I don't want to import them anywhere I just want to move, edit, delete some folders or files to make them look like my master HD. What's the deal. I just did an all night back and this morning the master HD had 200GB free and the backup had 400GB free. ?


Nov 20, 2017 at 01:42 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · LR CAT & back up question


Robert; firstly, please confirm that I understand this part correctly...
1. you're working on a Mac of some sort
2. your photos live on an internal hard drive, in a volume called "Lr HD"
3. your backup photos live on an external hard drive, in a volume called "Lr ext HD"

Secondly, you need to look at what CCC is doing. I no longer have a Mac up and running and so I can only work on memory, but CCC can backup data in different ways. e.g. it can copy only what has changed; only what is not already on the backup; everything. Furthermore, and this is probably where you are getting caught out, it can be set up to either delete or else keep whatever is already on the backup that is no longer on the master. This includes any files and folders that have been renamed, relocated or deleted.

Look carefully for that setting. You probably do not want to keep anything on the backup that is no longer on the master drive. If you want to keep a history of changed files then use Time Capsule, but only on the master drive (or else you will clutter up the TC drive for no additional benefit).

If I am correct, then your problem is mostly in that CCC backup setting. However, the rest of your problem is what makes the Lr folder list look different from the Finder folder list. The answer is what I have mentioned previously:
(a) when you double-click on the catalog file on the Lr ext HD, it correctly runs Lr and opens that catalog in Lr, but that catalog is still looking at a drive called "Lr HD" (your master drive) where the extra folders do not exist because you tidied them up. (b) If you had gone into that catalog and changed the top-most folder to the one on the backup drive "Lr ext HD" instead of "Lr HD", then it may have shown you the old folders that CCC had copied to the backup drive. Or, it may not, because Lr generally only shows the folders that are needed for the images that are already in the catalog. Folders that contain only un-imported, removed or deleted images are usually not displayed.
(c) Finder just shows you what is there. It does not restrict itself to what is in a Lr catalog, so it revealed all of the old folders that had previously been backed up to that drive by CCC. If your old CCC had deleted the crud as the newly installed CCC seems to have done, then Lr would never see those old folders and files (- but that does not change the fact that it would still be looking at your master drive instead of the backup drive.)



Nov 20, 2017 at 02:05 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · LR CAT & back up question


Alan,

Correct I'm on a Macbook Pro but my photos are on an ext HD (Master) and backed up to another ext HD(backup).There are 2 issues I'm having. when I open either the master or backup HD (not in LR, just right click the HD icon and click open) I see folders and sub folders that aren't current to what I see when I open the master folder in LR. In LR I see a current list of folders and sub folders that I've recently done cleaning up the folders and files. I've just tried to open the backup HD in LR but find I don't see the folders unless I click import which shows the photos all checked to import. Why does LR not show me the files as it would with the master HD? And the other issue is why after a CCC back up why is the backup HD showing about 300GBs less on it than the master HD? believe me I've been searching every where for the answers.



Nov 20, 2017 at 04:38 PM
CosmicCruiser
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · LR CAT & back up question


thanks for everyone's input. I still don't know what happened but after a lengthy conversation with my good buddy from Adobe in Delhi it looks like 2,000 of my photos are gone. end of conversation. Like most of us they can't be replaced. Robert


Nov 22, 2017 at 02:01 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · LR CAT & back up question


If you know the photos are gone because Lr tells you they are missing, then you can search for them by name with the Finder program rather than Lr. That will find any images that are there, whether or not they are in the Lr catalogue.

If you find them, then show Lr where to find them and it will use them.

If you cannot find them at all with Finder, or if they are not shown in Lr as missing files, then you do have a problem but there is one last hope... point Lr to the top-most folder and tell it to synchronize that folder and all of the subfolders. If it finds any image files that are not in the catalogue then it will ask whether or not you want to import them. At this stage, do not let Lr delete any missing image files, because then you will lose track of which files are missing. Whether or not you do import "new" files, you'll at least know where they are. The downside is that Lr will likely not match them up with the edit histories in the catalog, and so you will have to do the edits all over again.

There will be some exclusions in your CCC backup settings. Look for them in CCC. If I recall correctly, there are multiple panels in the CCC setup.

If you have been using a Time Capsule, then it may have copies of the missing image files.



Nov 22, 2017 at 02:51 PM







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