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Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?
  
 
kotmj
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Found two of the Batis patents. The 25/2 had a certain Sakai Takahiko as inventor. The company is Tamron Co. Ltd. Patent no.
JP 2015-121649. Here's an embodiment from that patent---it corresponds exactly to the layout of the "Zeiss" Batis 25/2.


The Batis 85/1.8 had two inventors listed:TABATA HIROFUMI and OBIKANE YASUHIKO, both of Tamron Co. Ltd. Patent no. JP 2015-096915



Oct 22, 2017 at 06:51 PM
kotmj
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Can't seem to include the image.

Next thing you know, the Milvus was designed by Voigtlaender! Lol.



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:00 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


kotmj wrote:
Found two of the Batis patents. The 25/2 had a certain Sakai Takahiko as inventor. The company is Tamron Co. Ltd. Patent no.
JP 2015-121649. Here's an embodiment from that patent---it corresponds exactly to the layout of the "Zeiss" Batis 25/2.

The Batis 85/1.8 had two inventors listed:TABATA HIROFUMI and OBIKANE YASUHIKO, both of Tamron Co. Ltd. Patent no. JP 2015-096915


You forgot about the Tamron/Batis 18/2.8:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1459737

It seems that all Batis lenses are Tamron designs but I'm not sure about the 135/2.8 APO.



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:06 PM
Messier77
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Fred Miranda wrote:
You forgot about the Tamron/Batis 18/2.8:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1459737

It seems that all Batis lenses are Tamron designs but I'm not sure about the 135/2.8 APO.


As long as the lens is good, it doesnít matter who designed it. My Batis 18mm is razor sharp edge to edge and corner to corner even wide open at f/2.8. Thatís impressive for any lens designer/manufacturer. So kudos to Tamron for designing one heck of a lens.

I even tested it against several copies of the 16-35GM at 18mm and it whupped the GM at f/2.8 and f/4.



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:14 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Messier77 wrote:
As long as the lens is good, it doesnít matter who designed it. My Batis 18mm is razor sharp edge to edge and corner to corner even wide open at f/2.8. Thatís impressive for any lens designer/manufacturer. So kudos to Tamron for designing one heck of a lens.

I even tested it against several copies of the 16-35GM at 18mm and it whupped the GM at f/2.8 and f/4.


I agree and it should not matter. (Unless you are a Zeiss purist )
It's just a curious aspect of the Zeiss Batis line that many shooter don't know about.



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:32 PM
stevesanacore
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


But doesn't the type of glass, coating technology and of course precision in manufacturing make a difference?


Oct 22, 2017 at 07:43 PM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Dumb question, if the Tamron designed Batis lenses have a ZEISS label, who actually makes them?

K-H.



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:45 PM
doc4x5
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


None of it matters unless one is biased or the company misrepresents it. If the box said "designed in Germany by people with German sounding names," then it might be misrepresentation. Much of this goes back to the day when "made in Japan" was thought to be a sign of inferior goods and extends to today when "made in China" is thought to represent inferior production. High tech people from many countries work in many places for many companies. If it's good, use it and enjoy it. "Veblen goods" are "A good for which demand increases as the price increases, because of its exclusive nature and appeal as a status symbol." Perhaps Zeiss and Leica are Veblen goods these days. The good news is that we have reviewers who test these items, we, the purchaser can then determine if the price is worth it.

Edited on Oct 22, 2017 at 07:52 PM · View previous versions



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:51 PM
kotmj
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Zeiss has always prided itself on its unique take on how to design photographic lenses. Decades before its Japanese counterparts, Zeiss did a lot of research into managing stray light in a lens. Until relatively recently, Zeiss would design for maximum contrast at the expense of other aspects like chromatic abberation, etc. Certainly when Dr Vladan Blahnik was head of optical design that was the case. By outsourcing not just the manufacturing but also the design, the lenses become generic. Yes, they represent a great engineering achievement of the supplier, but they are not really Zeiss in the way Cooke cine lenses are really Cooke.


Oct 22, 2017 at 07:52 PM
BastianK
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Fred Miranda wrote:
You forgot about the Tamron/Batis 18/2.8:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1459737

It seems that all Batis lenses are Tamron designs but I'm not sure about the 135/2.8 APO.

When having a look at the data sheets from Zeiss you will notice the 2.8/18 and 2.0/25 are both using ashperics made from anomalous dispersion glass.
I don't know of any other Zeiss lenses using such elements.

I am not the biggest fan of such elements as they seem to have a negative impact on bokeh rendering (very very bad onion rings).



Oct 22, 2017 at 07:54 PM
 

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Makten
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Well, that explains why the Batis 25 doesn't at all draw like a Zeiss lens.


Oct 22, 2017 at 08:00 PM
ChrisLovesUgly
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?




k-h.a.w wrote:
Dumb question, if the Tamron designed Batis lenses have a ZEISS label, who actually makes them?

K-H.


Probably Cosina



Oct 22, 2017 at 08:13 PM
MaTiHH
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


ChrisLovesUgly wrote:
Probably Cosina


Correct, all Zeiss lenses for e-Mount are manufactured by CV.

The patent by Tamron does not mean the lens design is Tamron. Just remember that Zeiss has never before built an autofocus system into a lens so most likely that is where the cooperation lies and then it is just a matter of contracting, who actually registers the patent. Would also be a possible explanation on why Tamron is not doing any e-mount since a potential contract might well exclude them for a while.



Oct 22, 2017 at 09:00 PM
philber
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


My guess is that, if they are indeed Tamron patents and designs, then Tamron make them. Why would Zeiss take a Tamron design to have it made by Cosina, who by the way, don't do AF lenses?
I had/have a Touit lens, which in many respects in the predecessor to the Batis line, in that it is a AF Zeiss. A very nice lens indeed, but it does draw quite differently from the many Zeiss MF lenses I use and have used, but conspicuously like a Batis 25. Zeiss are being very cagey as to who manufactures the Batis, at least to my knowledge. It might be that this is because Tamron are less "lofty" than other lens makers, which wouldn't help justify a proud Zeiss price tag on a Tamron design...



Oct 22, 2017 at 09:08 PM
DavidBM
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


philber wrote:
My guess is that, if they are indeed Tamron patents and designs, then Tamron make them. Why would Zeiss take a Tamron design to have it made by Cosina, who by the way, don't do AF lenses?
I had/have a Touit lens, which in many respects in the predecessor to the Batis line, in that it is a AF Zeiss. A very nice lens indeed, but it does draw quite differently from the many Zeiss MF lenses I use and have used, but conspicuously like a Batis 25. Zeiss are being very cagey as to who manufactures the Batis, at least
...Show more

Yes you can see why Zeiss would not want it to be knowspn that Tamron make Batis (which dies seem likely to me ó after all some good Japanese Maker with IS and AF experience must make them and as Philliipe says thatís not Cosina) ó because the lenses they make under their own name while good are budget alternatives. But thatís not to say they canít design and manufacture great high end stuff if the price is higher. They just couldnít sell it under their own name because of the Ďvalue Ď perception of the brand.



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


philber wrote:
My guess is that, if they are indeed Tamron patents and designs, then Tamron make them. Why would Zeiss take a Tamron design to have it made by Cosina, who by the way, don't do AF lenses?
I had/have a Touit lens, which in many respects in the predecessor to the Batis line, in that it is a AF Zeiss. A very nice lens indeed, but it does draw quite differently from the many Zeiss MF lenses I use and have used, but conspicuously like a Batis 25. Zeiss are being very cagey as to who manufactures the Batis, at least
...Show more

Of course speculation, but I think this is plausible and could work the same way as 'Zony', except that Tamron's name is completely excluded, perhaps for pricing reasons. Does anyone know if there is a Tamron patent for the 135/2.8 APO? I think this one is a Zeiss design.



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM
Maknof
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Sony is a big shareholder in Tamron.
The manufacturer could be anyone, in subcontract.



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:09 PM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Maknof wrote:
Sony is a big shareholder in Tamron.
The manufacturer could be anyone, in subcontract.


What %?



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:18 PM
Messier77
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


k-h.a.w wrote:
What %?


Sony holds a 12.06% share of Tamron as of June 2017.

http://www.tamron.com/ir/stock_information/



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:34 PM
DavidBM
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Tamron Batis instead of "Zeiss" Batis?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Of course speculation, but I think this is plausible and could work the same way as 'Zony', except that Tamron's name is completely excluded, perhaps for pricing reasons. Does anyone know if there is a Tamron patent for the 135/2.8 APO? I think this one is a Zeiss design.


I think there was a Tamron patent for the Batis (along with a 2.8/180) but then that great free patent search site whose name I forgot closed down.

I think there's very likely a lot of middle ground between "Tamron design" and "all happened behind closed doors in Oberkochen"

Tamron *must* do the opto-mechanicals; they have to manufacture it, they have the IS/AF expertise so Zeiss simply couldn't completely design a Batis if they wanted to. The IS and AF impact deeply on the optical design.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop Zeiss designers setting the MTF targets, looking at the simulations, providing feedback, doing some ray traces (especially as I think they are supposed to have that non image forming light tracing software) etc etc.If Zeiss has input it would still have to be a bit of a collaboration.

I don't know what the balance is; but even if Zeiss has a big input someone has to patent it. And it makes sense that the patent is published by the side who did the *manufacturing design*.



Oct 22, 2017 at 10:40 PM
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