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Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs
  
 
gschlact
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs



I don't agree , the issue is with the Station, and from the photographer's perspective nothing to do with the dancer/client. The client didn't illegally publish the photo.

airfrogusmc wrote:
Here's the situation guys. The client probably submitted the photographs on a job Ron was already paid on. They should have contacted him but they didn't so should he make a deal of something he already said he was not inclined to do and maybe causing a thing that ultimately involves the client and a good STEADY client. I would let it go to. He'll by far make up any loss in the future because it is a good steady client. The ballet (client) not the TV station.




Oct 25, 2017 at 02:34 AM
gnjphotography
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


It is not fair use. News media can not use copyrighted images without permission. Just like they can not use copyright music or video either. Fair use applies to educational purposes, not to put up on the television for viewers to see.

Associated Press Style Guide Briefing on Media Law - "In using copyright material in a news story or column, writers and producers should make sure that no more of a copyrighted work than necessary for a proper purpose is used in a way that impairs its value. Photographers in particular pose copyright issues. Any use of a photograph without permission of the owner of the copyright is likely to raise issues".



Oct 26, 2017 at 12:59 PM
gnjphotography
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Ron,

The issue is not whether you care if they used your photo or not. The issue is that too many content producers are not aware of copyright laws and what is and is not fair usage. I work for a major radio and TV organization and I can not tell you how many times I find my radio and TV News teams using copyrighted material without knowing that it is wrong. Seems the census is if it is online or in google images it is free. Most likely someone was putting a story out on the subject, they googled his name and find the photos you took on Facebook and Instagram via google images. They then right clicked and saved the image and included it in the news package, which is wrong. It is a problem of ethics that is affecting the entire industry. Photographers caught illegally altering images, writing stories or reporting non-verified information from anonymous sources, using Twitter as an official source for on-scene reportage with of verifying, and using copyrighted material from hard working paid professionals without giving credit. The media has lost credibility across the table on all platforms and need to train their producers, anchors, and talent better to ensure we adhere to our ethics. If you feel this is all just a bunch of outdated rules, then we can have a media network like North Korea that tells you only what it wants you to know and how they think it should be told, true or not.
So letting something like this slide and not calling the station out on their blatant misuse of copyright law is enabling them to continue to do it to others and destroy the ethical name of the media.

-Greg



Oct 26, 2017 at 01:29 PM
Littleguy
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


By keeping silent - this is the reason why we have guys like this:
https://www.diyphotography.net/internet-entrepreneur-shocked-copyright-owner-sued-stealing-work/

The thinking of: If its on the web - it free.

If it was the dancer providing the photos thats even worst not sure about the professional Ballet dance companies in your area but the biggest one in my city is unionized their contract spells out exactly how much control the dancers have over photos of them. He should know exactly what photo rights are as the union contract spells out exactly how much rights they have over the use of their images and how much the dancers will be paid when the photos are used by 3rd parties. I am surprised you even have permission to post the photos here without his expressed approval.

I doubt it was the dancer providing the photos. Probably just the TV station going a search of the Internet.

By keeping silent we just further the myth that if its on the net its free.



Oct 26, 2017 at 03:11 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


gschlact wrote:
I don't agree , the issue is with the Station, and from the photographer's perspective nothing to do with the dancer/client. The client didn't illegally publish the photo.



Here's what you and many do not get. The client, which is probably the ballet company, I would bet sent the station some images. Yes, they probably should have checked with Ron first but this is a probably a very steady client that generates a lot of revenue over the year. So Ron makes a stink and maybe gets the clients back up over something he will make up financially in one job. There are reasons some have a steady client base and others cut off their noses to spite their face. If yo are in it for the fast usually short $$$ then get your $1000 or so for raising a big stink and maybe damage the relationship with a 6 figure client. Sounds like a good plan to me ha ha....

Ron might want to mention something to the client like maybe next time give me a choice and remind them that he holds the copyright but maybe he has an agreement with the client for unlimited usage which maybe the client has paid for.



Oct 26, 2017 at 03:25 PM
Littleguy
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


I get your point about client relations but there is a lot of unknowns here but from the info provided by the OP - it doesn't look like the dance company provided the pic.

The image was taken while the dancer was with Ballet Chicago but he now dances with Providence Ballet. It would be highly unusual for one dance company to use pics from another company. Plus the dancer's contract with the dance companies usually have clauses that govern how and when the image of dancers are to be used that are no longer employed by the company.

The image was cropped with the foot cut-off about where his watermark would be - cutting feet of dancers is a big no no in dance photography and the dance companies would know this. Plus the dance company would have the non-watermarked version of the image if they were a client of Ron's.

So given the info provided by Ron - I find it highly unlikely that the situation is as you described - of course, there is no way of knowing unless one inquires with the TV station or the dancer himself...I would personally find out more info from the dancer about what happened before deciding on a course of action but keeping silent will only have Ron and us guessing and making assumptions about what happened here.


airfrogusmc wrote:
Here's what you and many do not get. The client, which is probably the ballet company, I would bet sent the station some images. Yes, they probably should have checked with Ron first but this is a probably a very steady client that generates a lot of revenue over the year. So Ron makes a stink and maybe gets the clients back up over something he will make up financially in one job. There are reasons some have a steady client base and others cut off their noses to spite their face. If yo are in it for the fast
...Show more




Oct 26, 2017 at 03:52 PM
k00nix
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


So, I work for a major news organization in the United State. We have seminars about every two years and here's what I can tell you. We have been advised by our corporate attorney that anything we find in the public domain (the web) we can use and claim "fair use" provided we alter it in some way so it is not the original image (cropping) and it is used for a topical story. In this case, they seem to have done everything correctly. If they used the image a year from now for a story about ballet, then he would have a case.

If you really want to prevent this from happening, watermark diagonally across the image. We tv folk hate that.



Oct 26, 2017 at 04:05 PM
Littleguy
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Everything in public domain is fair game.

BUT NOT EVERYTHING on the web is public domain!

Fair use is the most common defense against copyright infringement but its pretty complex. But I am pretty sure that cropping a pic doesn't count as transformative under fair-use principles.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/

I think something got lost in the translation there.

k00nix wrote:
So, I work for a major news organization in the United State. We have seminars about every two years and here's what I can tell you. We have been advised by our corporate attorney that anything we find in the public domain (the web) we can use and claim "fair use" provided we alter it in some way so it is not the original image (cropping) and it is used for a topical story. In this case, they seem to have done everything correctly. If they used the image a year from now for a story about ballet, then he
...Show more




Oct 26, 2017 at 04:19 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Littleguy wrote:
I get your point about client relations but there is a lot of unknowns here but from the info provided by the OP - it doesn't look like the dance company provided the pic.

The image was taken while the dancer was with Ballet Chicago but he now dances with Providence Ballet. It would be highly unusual for one dance company to use pics from another company. Plus the dancer's contract with the dance companies usually have clauses that govern how and when the image of dancers are to be used that are no longer employed by the company.

The image was
...Show more


Here's what I do know, The ballet is Rons client. I have come to believe that the news people contacted the Ballet for images. The rest is speculation but I do have a feeling I am close to being right.

What else I do know is that Ron has built a successful business and part of that success is his relationship with his clients. For long term success those relationships are the key. I know because it is what i have built my business on. I still have my very first client.

We all make mistakes from time to time but like I pointed out in my opinion is it really worth getting on a high horse to make a point for what would be chump change considering it in the scheme of things and the bigger picture? I think Rons success shows the good sense he has in dealing with his clients. If this isn't a big deal to him, which he clearly stated it wasn't, it certainly isn't to me and shouldn't be to anyone else.


Edited on Oct 26, 2017 at 04:53 PM · View previous versions



Oct 26, 2017 at 04:46 PM
gschlact
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs




k00nix wrote:
So, I work for a major news organization in the United State. We have seminars about every two years and here's what I can tell you. We have been advised by our corporate attorney that anything we find in the public domain (the web) we can use and claim "fair use" provided we alter it in some way so it is not the original image (cropping) and it is used for a topical story. In this case, they seem to have done everything correctly. If they used the image a year from now for a story about ballet, then he
...Show more

It has been explained that a) derived art that is substantially the same (overall look, subject, interpretation, meaning etc) is a violation of copyright.
And B) fair use news must be something specific about the art itself, such as image X sold for $Y, or image X is part of the gallery display exhibit, the specific technique or illustration of factual / non-artistic nature, etc; not a story simply reporting about a person, place or item that is in an artistic image (gray area) that can be replaced by a new photo of the person, place or item.

Ask your Station attorney how he still claims fair use in this case. By his logic, any image enhancing the 'interest or entertainment' of a story would be air use is a change is made, for instance adding your news emblem to some blank space. And extending his logic, of the station receives a solicitation for use in an upcoming story, if that image is on Google images, he can claim fair use with a small modification.

The most agreed upon interpretations of Fair Use is that there are many gray areas of interpretation, and non typical unpredicted legal outcome on both sides of interpretation occur. I find it surprising that your Station attorney is not more risk adverse.

Good reference material- https://artlawjournal.com/fair-blogging-bloggers-copyrighted-images/



Oct 26, 2017 at 04:48 PM
 

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k00nix
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Littleguy wrote:
Everything in public domain is fair game.

BUT NOT EVERYTHING on the web is public domain!

Fair use is the most common defense against copyright infringement but its pretty complex. But I am pretty sure that cropping a pic doesn't count as transformative under fair-use principles.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/

I think something got lost in the translation there.



We have been advised by our corporate attorney that it is. (I'm not trying to argue, just passing along the rules we in tv news play by)

He also told us that they are willing to go to court with anyone. (Just my thought....They figure they have the money and the attornies on retainer to fight anyone.)





Oct 26, 2017 at 06:07 PM
Littleguy
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Thanks for the insight into what a major news organization is telling their staff.

Maybe he is right as most photographers don't get their photos registered with the copyright office and without statutory damages - its really not worth it to go to court.

k00nix wrote:
We have been advised by our corporate attorney that it is. (I'm not trying to argue, just passing along the rules we in tv news play by)

He also told us that they are willing to go to court with anyone. (Just my thought....They figure they have the money and the attornies on retainer to fight anyone.)






Oct 26, 2017 at 06:34 PM
gschlact
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


I wonder if your attorney is aware of Statutory Damages for registered copyright work up to $30K plus attorney fees + potential surrender of related income, all on top of Willful Intent demonstrated by removal of copyright mark on the image. I would say quite a game considering the likely relatively low cost for limited use it would need via a Use Agreement.

k00nix wrote:
We have been advised by our corporate attorney that it is. (I'm not trying to argue, just passing along the rules we in tv news play by)

He also told us that they are willing to go to court with anyone. (Just my thought....They figure they have the money and the attornies on retainer to fight anyone.)





Oct 26, 2017 at 06:45 PM
gschlact
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


You are correct that without statutory damages it isn't with going to court. However, the violator needs to still be cautious... The copyright owner has 90 days from first publication for retroactive protection. Being in the news business, my guess is that they are often grabbing images that just occurred and thus within 90 day registration allowance.

I hope as you said, something is being lost in translation from what the attorney implied.

Littleguy wrote:
Thanks for the insight into what a major news organization is telling their staff.

Maybe he is right as most photographers don't get their photos registered with the copyright office and without statutory damages - its really not worth it to go to court.





Oct 26, 2017 at 06:49 PM
friscoron
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs



You have a pretty good understanding. Ballet Chicago is my client, and Jordan was one of their dancers when I took his picture. I provide these performance shots to BC to use for marketing and social media. The dancers have the option of purchasing JPGs or prints from me, and some do. Others use the pics that I post on my own social media. In this case, Jordan got this image from a Facebook post. He never purchased the JPG. And I fully understand that dancers are going to screenshot any pics I put on social media. If I'm not okay with that, I shouldn't be posting them on social media.

The news station did a story on Jordan and asked him if he had any performance pics. He sent them my shot to use. And I'm fine with that. I'm really not out any money, and I'm glad my pic was used to promote Jordan's recovery.


airfrogusmc wrote:
Here's what I do know, The ballet is Rons client. I have come to believe that the news people contacted the Ballet for images. The rest is speculation but I do have a feeling I am close to being right.

What else I do know is that Ron has built a successful business and part of that success is his relationship with his clients. For long term success those relationships are the key. I know because it is what i have built my business on. I still have my very first client.

We all make mistakes from time to time
...Show more




Oct 26, 2017 at 11:25 PM
savingspaces
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


airfrogusmc wrote:
Hi Ron,

WELL DONE....

In my opinion they should have given you credit. I did some stuff with Betty White a few years back and my photos were on WGN here I got credit.

I do agree with not excepting money for it.


Id take the money in a heartbeat and give it to Jordan.

I wonder what would happen if the tables were turned. Do any of you think the station would be ok with it?



Nov 04, 2017 at 05:10 AM
Danpbphoto
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


This happens to me all the time Ron!!!!!!
Especially when I am at Arlington Natl Cemetery and working for them(volunteer employee on assignment) or the Honor Burial family(s) with their WRITTEN permission. I almost always post a copyright watermark in the corner, but that means nothing to 99% of the media. They have the "big bucks" to
fight any court case I would have to bring. I politely inform the media outlet of their snafu and let it go...Many printed media do add a "photo courtesy" remake ex post facto but majority don't. I just add it to my resume'. I donate all of my assignments, Ken Burns-Vietnam, FOX News Memorial Day and Veterans Day televised reports, Maryland PBS.. to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund if a monetary offer is made. Now if someone wants copies, then I charge with exceptions. Yeah it is not profitable for me but I consider the source and getting my name out there.
Your comments are dead on Ron/Allen, as are the rest of the replies.
Dan




Nov 07, 2017 at 01:10 PM
prairietom
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Uncle Chuck is right! Send them an invoice in any case.



Nov 13, 2017 at 02:19 PM
pasblues
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


Just send the station a bill with a kind note complimenting the story. No need to litigate.


Nov 19, 2017 at 06:50 PM
Oscarsmadness
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Getting credit -- or not! -- for pics on TV news programs


I actually had this happen to me three or so days ago. A local performing arts organization who is my client gave the TV station my photos for broadcast. To be fair, the org was using the TV station to promote itself, which in spirit is in good standing with my contract. Sublicensing is prohibited though....

I'm not sure what I should say to the TV station, if anything. I'm not sure what I should say to my client either. I don't want to lose them either, because they have retained me for the last four years.

Ron, I am happy that you chose a nonconfrontational response to your experience. I wish I had as gracious of character when faced with these things...



Nov 20, 2017 at 07:53 AM
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