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Archive 2017 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question

  
 
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


I've been testing AI Servo in my mk4 and the manual confused me. It seems that viewfinder AF will only follow a subject across the selected focus points, i.e. use Auto Select to get full coverage. The AF4 custom function allows you to specify how the original point is selected. I think it says, INITIAL: have center point selected, switch to AI Servo, then switch to Auto AF point select and AI Servo will start with the center point then follow the subject around the full field.

My experimenting doesn't seem to work this way. AI Servo with Auto AF just lights up a variety of AF points. Can someone please explain how all this is supposed to work? I did notice that the AF lock circle blinks when AI Servo loses AF which is nice. But this let me see that if I have the center focus point selected that AI Servo loses lock if the subject moves off that focus point. Color me confused. Thanks in advance.



Oct 16, 2017 at 02:49 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


It is definitely supposed to follow the subject. Canon demonstrated this feature way back on the 1D4 and after initially grabbing focus with the centre point, as the subject moved the AF would follow it and the different points lit up indicating how they were following the subject. I use this mode for swallows and it seems to work, although it struggles to keep up with such fast erratic subjects, but for more normal subjects it seems to do a decent job, great against clean backgrounds like sky for smaller subjects so that grabbing a wing tip rather than the body won’t be an issue.

I’m trying to recall if you need to enable any other settings, I don’t have the manual at hand as I type this. Which case are you using. I’m wondering if you need to use case’s specific to using multiple points, so the AF can be handed off if focus is lost with the initial point.



Oct 16, 2017 at 04:37 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


I use it all of the time for birding. In initial it starts wherever you place the initial AF point. I does not have to be in the centre but centre is a good start to keep it simple. Once the initial point acquires AF it drops out as being initial AF point and becomes part of 61 point array. Once you lift your thumb off the BBF that AF point again becomes the initial point again and the cycle repeats. It works well but when in a busy environment - it is just a computer. You have to keep up to the subject as well if there is a lot of movement.

I use zone AF cases 5 or 6 on zone AF. Try 6 and increase AF switching to +2. The points will react faster as the subject enters their area. You can try this on a static target. Set to 0, focus on it then move the camera side to side. Now try it on 2.

Also try lowering TS to -1 or -2. This prevents the system from focusing on something else of it loses the target for a second.



Oct 16, 2017 at 06:33 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


You can have it do two things:
1) Randomly start focusing on whatever (usually what is closest and most contrasty) and then it will try to follow whatever it picks in the first place. This works good for bird against blue sky as the only thing it will ever grab is the bird and you don't have to get a selected point on the bird to start with.

2) You select the starting point and you then move that starting point onto the subject you want to track and it will try to follow that subject using all 61 points (which may light up as multiple points as they dance around).

There are two different ways to have the selected point assigned which is why there are a total of 3 options in the menu but really only 2 ways the system works.

Generally Canon's system is next to useless other than for bird against sky. It is too easily confused by other things to track a bird across complicated backgrounds/foregrounds.
Nikon's comparative systems known as Auto AF (like #1 above) and 3D AF (like #2 above) are far superior and can actually track a bird across complex backgrounds.



Oct 16, 2017 at 06:44 PM
Herb
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


I have not found AI Servo to be worthless. My wife and I use it whenever we are taking photos at IronMan events and it works quite well. We set the single center focal point along with 3x3 matrix around it. Whether its swimming, biking or running.....all good!

I used to just use the center point, but having expanded that to the 3x3 matrix I find that we get more keepers.

I havent used Nikon so I cant comment....



Oct 16, 2017 at 06:55 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Define 3 by 3 matrix? Are you in zone or expansion?


Oct 16, 2017 at 06:58 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Thanks! In my experimenting with INITIAL set in custom function AF4 when I use the focus point select and then M-Fn to select focus point types spot, single, assets, zone, or Auto there is a choice for the entire area with one point emphasized. This last one starts with the selected point which I can use the joy stick to change and then floats around all the points as my subject moves. I suspect CF AF4 affects this behavior but I didn't try all the variants. If I use the M-Fn to select some other area down to single point, that area or point is the only one used. So pick your use and the appropriate AF settings.

I notice it tends to get confused with small birds in branchy/leafy trees (Paloverde) but that would be the AF cases settings responsibility to tune to that. I'm just trying to adjust for my coursing dogs running which is faster than I can track with one or a few points. I'll keep experimenting.



Oct 16, 2017 at 07:08 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Zenon Char wrote:
Define 3 by 3 matrix? Are you in zone or expansion?


There are two expansion modes 4 or 8. I'm assuming he's referring to one of these.



Oct 16, 2017 at 07:09 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks! In my experimenting with INITIAL set in custom function AF4 when I use the focus point select and then M-Fn to select focus point types spot, single, assets, zone, or Auto there is a choice for the entire area with one point emphasized. This last one starts with the selected point which I can use the joy stick to change and then floats around all the points as my subject moves. I suspect CF AF4 affects this behavior but I didn't try all the variants. If I use the M-Fn to select some other area down to single
...Show more

Have you tried the AF area selection switch to change AF point configs? I don't like it's placement as much as the 7D2 but I got used to it.

I have not had a lot of success with birds in leaves unless they aren't moving. You might want to try iTR for that. I used it a few times with my 7D2 but not tried it on my 5D4. It is a little more sophisticated.




Oct 16, 2017 at 07:24 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


These were all in automatic selection, no initial point. I was just goofing around and it separated the deer from the background. Closest object. It did not move like a fast little bird. Also I think the system may be sensitive to anything that is moving and it will focus in that.


















Oct 16, 2017 at 07:37 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Thanks Zenon. Yes I’ve experimented with them. I’ll need to choose which size area is appropriate for a given target - ranging from bird to deer. Still haven’t figured out what CF AF4 really does yet.


Oct 17, 2017 at 12:16 AM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


If you select Initial AF Point you should see the viewfinder which you can move around before initiating AF. Once it focuses on something it drops out as the initial point. When you stop focusing it appears again. This is helpful when panning for birds from side to side. This only works in 61 point zone AF.

Manual will start where you last positioned a single or expansion AF point. So if my AF point is at the far left and I switch to 61 point zone it will start there.

I did a breakdown of what the cases do if it is helpful to you. I helped me understand them better.

Case 1. Base setting that will cover most shooting situations.

Case 2. TS changes to -1. I like -2. If AF point/s go off your subject AF will hang on and not refocus instantly on something else to give you time to reacquire your original subject. This includes your subject being obstructed by something else.

Case 3. The opposite of Case 2. TS changes to +1. System will immediately refocus on another subject when AF point/s fall on it. Good for tracking two runners in a race, you are shooting both and are switching from one to another.

Case 4. System is more sensitive to objects moving to towards and away which includes abrupt stops/starts and increase/decrease in speed from a start point to a finish point. This one was always a little wishy washy in the manuals but the 1DX II AF guide confirmed it.

Case 5. System is more sensitive to left, right, up and down movement.

Case 6. Combines Cases 4 and 5.

Note: I only use Cases 5 and 6 in zone mode. While the manual says it works in the expansion modes I have yet to find any real benefit. That is just me and others may not agree. Arthur Morris who is a well known birder said the same thing.




Oct 17, 2017 at 09:08 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Thanks again. Case 2 would have been best for my experimenting yesterday. Maybe Case 3 would be better for my coursing dogs. Life is simpler with the 80D although I can adjust individual settings like TS.


Oct 17, 2017 at 10:33 AM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Yeah when I got my 7D in 2009 I set the TS to -2 and shot like that for 5 years.

I think Case 3 gets misinterpreted and Canon's explanation is not great. On other forums I have read where people think it will focus faster. Case 3 assumes you are already focused on something else first. The 7D2 AF guide shows a hawk flying into the focus area. The user would have already been focused on the background. It is how quickly it lets go of the current object and focuses on the new one. I did a lot of tests and TS works as stated and one of more important parameters. Of course that is my option. I even taped my lens so it de-focused the same amount each time and tested initial AF acquisition with TS at -2 and +2 with a tripod on a static target. I can't see how that can be tested in the field as contrast is always changing so that will effect initial focus acquisition.

I also did a bunch of tests to see how the centre point and expansion assist points work.



Oct 17, 2017 at 11:08 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Zenon Char wrote:
These were all in automatic selection, no initial point. I was just goofing around and it separated the deer from the background. Closest object. It did not move like a fast little bird. Also I think the system may be sensitive to anything that is moving and it will focus in that.


Yes, if you pick the right situation it can work. But in the first you get a nice sharp butt shot.
I've been experimenting shooting jays in flight and some small hawks in flight. I tried the All point mode but the subject is just too small in the frame even though it is moving and it always went to a contrasty background spot. Nikon's Auto AF did pick up the moving bird a lot of the time. I was able to get some great jay in flight shots with 1DX2 and small zone but it took a lot of attempts to get some keepers.



Oct 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Herb wrote:
I have not found AI Servo to be worthless. My wife and I use it whenever we are taking photos at IronMan events and it works quite well. We set the single center focal point along with 3x3 matrix around it. Whether its swimming, biking or running.....all good!

I used to just use the center point, but having expanded that to the 3x3 matrix I find that we get more keepers.

I havent used Nikon so I cant comment....


If this was in response to my comment, I wasn't referring to AI Servo, I was only referring to the All Point AF mode with or without user selected point and with or without iTR. I use AI Servo 100% of the time for all my shooting. I mostly use expansion and small zone. I also use spot for birds in bush/branches.

I had good success with the All point mode for shooting swallows against sky without selecting a starting point. But all my other experiments with this mode haven't resulted in success. Note I'm only shooting birds.



Oct 17, 2017 at 11:52 AM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5D mk 4 AI Servo question


Yes it has it's limitations. I use it for BIF and when I get bored. I got this one in zone.









Oct 17, 2017 at 11:57 AM





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