Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3              6       7       end
  

Archive 2017 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?

  
 
rek101
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


Paul Mo wrote:
In the same way that the desktop computer is becoming the preserve of gamers and people who work in graphics/computational science who need heavy lifting.

Stating the obvious, things are going mobile, fast.


To me, those are different. People still buy computers. Every college student has a notebook computer...it's not like they use their phones to write papers or use Excel. Many people simply stopped buying cameras, and Nikon/Canon don't produce smartphones. People used to upgrade cameras every few years....now there's no reason to even own one.





Oct 17, 2017 at 06:05 AM
cgrille
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


thenoilif wrote:
Possibly just anecdotal but FujiFilm sales have been increasing year to year.


Fuji made most money out of Instax Film cameras and equipment, not their digital counterparts.




Oct 17, 2017 at 06:22 AM
technic
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


rek101 wrote:
To me, those are different. People still buy computers. Every college student has a notebook computer...it's not like they use their phones to write papers or use Excel. Many people simply stopped buying cameras, and Nikon/Canon don't produce smartphones. People used to upgrade cameras every few years....now there's no reason to even own one.


Many people stopped buying computers as well (I'm not counting those who buy a new computer because they have a virus or get too much spam ...). For many all their 'computing' needs can be handled with a tablet or smartphone with Facebook account ;-( People used to upgrade computers (or tablets ...) every few years, and for most applications there really is no need for upgrading. If you want to write papers or use Excel, you might as well use a computer from 20 years ago and you will be fine (maybe you have to use a less bloated version of the Mickeysoft program though). Some colleges (and many companies) simply provide the notebooks, no need for the user to buy something. Both sectors had very similar hypes over the years and we are now getting back to a more normal situation.

I professionally built and used graphics workstations in the nineties, but I lost any interest in upgrading my own computer years ago because the gains became infinitesimally small. I'm currently using a mini-PC with Atom processor that is about as fast as a Pentium 4 from 15 years ago. Works fine for Photoshop CS etc. as long as you don't do crazy things; for professional use this wouldn't make sense of course. I would now rather upgrade because of a new computing approach e.g. a better screen like in the Microsoft Surface Studio(but there are still software issues with very high resolution ...) or if I REALLY have to e.g. because of the need for handling complex multilayer images, 4K video editing etc.

I have a smartphone but never use the camera because of low image quality. I'm not interested in buying $1000 smartphone just to get a better camera either ... but I'm more like the opposite of the average user ;-)



Oct 17, 2017 at 08:07 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


It has been a few months since I've replied to this general subject, so what the heck.

What is happening to the photography/camera business?

1. Increasingly good and always-available smartphone cameras have largely supplanted the old point & shoot camera market. (I know that's not the main point of the graphics at the start of this thread, but it always comes up.)

2. During the initial phase of DSLR availability there was a huge market of people moving from film to digital and people who were newly interested in "serious" photography largely because of the new camera technology and these groups formed an anomalously large "bump" in consumption of digital cameras that could not be permanently sustained.

3. During the first (roughly) decade or so of serious digital cameras (generally DSLRs at that point) the rate of innovation and improvement was significant enough to prod a good number of buyers to upgrade their previous digital cameras on a shorter-than-usual time scale, also contributing to the unusually large rate of sales.

4. While cameras continue to improve in real ways, the changes that these technical improvements bring to photographs made with the equipment are less and less compelling enough to persuade users to upgrade as quickly.

The market is predictably a) not able to sustain an explosive rate of growth permanently and b) likely to return to a pattern more like that of the pre-digital era, when we often purchased gear less frequently and kept in much longer.

This isn't evidence of a "failure to innovate," or of poor gear or bad actors in the photography business — it is simply a normal and predictable thing.

Dan



Oct 17, 2017 at 10:32 AM
dreamlander
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?




Herb wrote:
Camera manufacturers would do themselves a huge favor and reduce the number of products they produce. Between point and shoot and dslr cameras there are way too many. I would expect the manufacturers to trim back the offerings to a few that they produce the most. Dump the 80% skews that accounts for the widest array of cameras and least volume and focus on doing really well the 20% skews that generates the 80% profitability...right now the manufacturers are trying to be everything for everybody......something that can’t and won’t be sustained.


That is probably not a bad idea and most likely what will happen, but I think it has nothing to do with drop in camera sales. No one thinks, "I would like to get a camera, but there are just too many options".

A large majority of people who want to dabble in photography already bought a camera in the last 5 to 10 years. A very small number of that group will move on to be a professional or serious enthusiast. So few are buying more than one camera.

I buy used. There are a lot of cameras out there. Someones moves to something else, and another person gets their used stuff.

Cameras are so good now, that you really don't need to upgrade often.

My 2 cents




Oct 17, 2017 at 12:06 PM
Jeff Nolten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


rek101 wrote:
It's a shame because printing anything but a very small print from a cell phone is basically going to deliver a disappointing result.


Yes and no one knows how to download their phone images. Instead of the 8 or so MP of the original they email you some auto-reduced thumbnail and don't know what you're talking about when you ask for the original!

On a more positive note, I agree with what Dan alluded to, for everyone but we few aficionados, digital cameras have been so good for enough years that few see the need to upgrade. I don't think its about too many choices, its about too few benefits to upgrading. Who couldn't take excellent images with a 10 year old L lens and a 5D2? My 2012 G1X imagery is so good that the mk 3 will have to be magic to entice. My 2011 computer is no less powerful than my recent one except for the retina display that most people wouldn't notice. Please tell me how an iPhone 8 is better than my hand-me-down 5s?

And don't get me started on IOS 11 - it can't download images anymore. Don't go IOS 11 - for photographers its broke! Oh yea, I was going end on a positive note.



Oct 17, 2017 at 01:33 PM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


Apart from what Herb said, cameras are now good enough to keep for several generations. Lenses also can last for many times longer than that. Why would you need to upgrade other than for something specific like I really need 4K video for my work, say. If you already have a bag of superb lenses other than day dreaming, you aren’t going to be rushing out to replace them. Victims of their own success. It’s a similar story for PC market, computers are powerful enough for many generations and for what most do, wasting time on social media, checking emails or playing candy crush saga, a smart phone is more than enough, only gamers upgrade their PC regularly or us photographers, videographers occasionally.

Some positive signs for this year, market is doing a lot better than last year, but the P&S market is all but dead and that is where most of the money came from to fund R&D for the DSLR market. Sony is doing alright as it dominates the smart phone camera sensor market and also makes smart phones. Canon is big enough and diverse enough to survive, Nikon I’m not so sure. Mirrorless will help them both, but ultimately (and Sony will feel this) when a camera is so good, you don’t need to upgrade, sales will decline. Best you can do is try and trap into emerging markets, that will buy you several years, but eventually the market will saturate.



Oct 17, 2017 at 05:06 PM
Ferrophot
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


I agree with the comments from Herb, Dan and Pixel Perfect. All the more reason for Camera manufacturers to get their marketing and products right so customers feel good when they buy. When I buy an expensive product I want to feel that it is the best available at that price point. If that feeling of satisfaction is not there then I don't buy. I think this is the other component to the decline in sales. Prices going up and improvements in image quality or useful features that will improve the image making experience becoming less. That feeling that my valuable cash has been well spent is just not there.




Oct 17, 2017 at 07:24 PM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


Ferrophot wrote:
I agree with the comments from Herb, Dan and Pixel Perfect. All the more reason for Camera manufacturers to get their marketing and products right so customers feel good when they buy. When I buy an expensive product I want to feel that it is the best available at that price point. If that feeling of satisfaction is not there then I don't buy. I think this is the other component to the decline in sales. Prices going up and improvements in image quality or useful features that will improve the image making experience becoming less. That feeling that my
...Show more

Maybe Canon are on to something, cripple cameras so much and trickle out a new feature each generation you’ll always feel the need to upgrade. G1X III will definitely leave you knowing this is not the best at that price point. Maybe in 2020 you won’t have to spend $3.5K to get 4K video.



Oct 17, 2017 at 07:43 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Maybe Canon are on to something, cripple cameras so much and trickle out a new feature each generation you’ll always feel the need to upgrade.


Your proposition doesn't make sense. If upgrades are "trickled out" and very small, why would Canon expect larger numbers of buyers to upgrade to a new supposedly "crippled" camera with smaller upgrades.?

Edited on Oct 18, 2017 at 11:14 AM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2017 at 09:39 PM
thenoilif
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


cgrille wrote:
Fuji made most money out of Instax Film cameras and equipment, not their digital counterparts.



'The business of electronic imaging achieved a sales growth due to positive sales of the X-Series of mirrorless digital cameras such as FUJIFILM X-T2 and FUJIFILM X-T20 as well as their interchangeable lenses, and strong sales of the FUJIFILM GFX 50S, a medium-format mirrorless digital camera equipped with a large sized sensor, released in February.'

I didn't say anything about overall revenue just that their x-series cameras have increased in sales.
In Asia (currently 2nd only to Europe in overall market share), I see more Fuji X-series cameras around people's necks these days than any other camera. They are extremely popular over here and for good reason.



Oct 17, 2017 at 10:52 PM
Nowhere Man
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


Admittedly, it's a bit funny hearing some say they know what Canon needs to do, when Canon has has record sales over many years.

I agree it would be nice to see a leaned down product lineup and it does feel bloated, especially with lower end cameras and point-and-shoots. But their on staff economists must be doing something right with how much camera gear they are able to move within a fiscal year.



Oct 18, 2017 at 12:33 AM
15Bit
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


I think Dan summed it all up nicely. This behaviour looks a lot to me like what statistics people would a regression to mean, but in a heavily damped system: The industry was shaken up my an extreme change (electronic sensors) which took some time to fully occur, and now that extreme change is over (the technology has plateaued) it is reverting back to it's historical average

I'm sure this was expected by the larger industry players, as they have plenty of statisicians and economists on payroll. They just can't do anything about it except bring out more and more products to try to tempt people to purchase, essentially kicking the ball (not very far) down the road. I think we will almost certainly see some companies exit the camera industry in the next few years, unless some big new innovation comes along.



Oct 18, 2017 at 12:40 AM
cgrille
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


thenoilif wrote:
I see more Fuji X-series cameras around people's necks these days than any other camera. They are extremely popular over here and for good reason.


Here I rarely see a Fuji camera around ones neck when I take a walk to the inner city of Cologne twice a week. Yesterday I saw one with a silver top Fuji in rangefinder form. I don't remember when was the last time before.

At the moment it is a good time for photographer. Whatever camera someone choose, it is not the model who defines the image quality. And an interesting image was never defined by a camera.



Oct 18, 2017 at 02:58 AM
thenoilif
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


cgrille wrote:
At the moment it is a good time for photographer. Whatever camera someone choose, it is not the model who defines the image quality. And an interesting image was never defined by a camera.


I disagree with this. Top level cameras can surely define ones IQ because they can give you options that other less spec'ed cameras cannot.

An A7Rii can DEFINitely give a photographer more IQ producing capabilities than anything with less MP sensor.
The same goes for the A9's speed compared to the A7Rii.



Oct 18, 2017 at 07:13 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


thenoilif wrote:
I disagree with this. Top level cameras can surely define ones IQ because they can give you options that other less spec'ed cameras cannot.

An A7Rii can DEFINitely give a photographer more IQ producing capabilities than anything with less MP sensor.
The same goes for the A9's speed compared to the A7Rii.


Such differences, regardless of brand, are tiny and incremental in terms of how they affect photographs. Yes, you can probably find a few outlier examples where the marginal difference was enough to be (barely) noticeable, but their effect on the totality of what makes a photograph what it is will be extraordinarily tiny. (If your current equipment is insufficient to make certain kinds of photographs and the difference in the new product is big enough to overcome that insufficiency and make the photographs possible the situation is different.)

That is not to say that we should never update our equipment nor that really old gear is just as good as really new gear. It does say that looking for significant improvements to the quality of your work by buying every incremental upgrade will rarely get you where you hope to be — and that accepting longer upgrade cycles will not diminish the quality of photography.



Oct 18, 2017 at 11:18 AM
Mikehit
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


thenoilif wrote:
I disagree with this. Top level cameras can surely define ones IQ because they can give you options that other less spec'ed cameras cannot.

An A7Rii can DEFINitely give a photographer more IQ producing capabilities than anything with less MP sensor.
The same goes for the A9's speed compared to the A7Rii.


If the first thing someone says is that you used the A7 instead of the A9, your photo has faile dmiserably and is worth squat.
Many award-winning magnum photos that still have massive impact would not even pass first viewing with your approach. Look up Alex Majoli, does war photograph with Olympus point-and-shoots.



Oct 18, 2017 at 04:34 PM
cgrille
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


A very important lesson someone can learn is that a new camera does not improve your ability to make better photos. It could motivate, yes, and this is not a bad thing. But a photo tour or a good course could be a better investment.



Oct 18, 2017 at 04:45 PM
thenoilif
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


cgrille wrote:
A very important lesson someone can learn is that a new camera does not improve your ability to make better photos. It could motivate, yes, and this is not a bad thing. But a photo tour or a good course could be a better investment.


New is a bit of a misdirection. We are not talking about new we are talking about better.

So you're saying that as an artistic tool for all applications, an image produced by a 24mp aps-c camera is going to be so similar to a 42 mp FF camera that its not worth using the latter

Look, I'm all for the 'best camera is the one that you have on you' approach to photography but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking best case scenario situations and there really is no argument that if a photographer has a magical hat that allows him/her to pull out any camera lens combo at any given time and has the know how to use it, that the best camera for the situation would be chosen the majority of the time. For example, if someone is taking a pic of the grand canyon at sunset and wants tack sharpness, larger DR range, and the flexibility to print at different sizes ranging from 40x60 all the way down to 5x7 then a Fuji X-T20 with the XF 14 2.8 isn't going to be the best tool, an A7Rii with Loxia 21 will produce a better image in both IQ and ability to manipulate the photo to fit your artistic vision.





Oct 18, 2017 at 09:22 PM
scalesusa
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2016?


dclark wrote:
Very interesting data. Unit sales can be pretty misleading without data on revenue and margins. It is clear that over the past 10 years the movement has been to more expensive cameras and lenses. .


That's what I thought, but the data does not support that. The dollar value of DSLR's being produced is dropping faster than the production volume. That tells me that the average price paid for a DSLR is dropping and that buyers are not moving to high priced DSLR's.

In 2016, for example, production numbers dropped to 84.4% of 2015, but the dollar value dropped to 83.6%.

In 2017, from Jam - Aug production of DSLR's increased to 100.2% of 2016, but value dropped to 94.9%.

Those numbers do not support the theory that buyers are buying higher priced DSLR's.

This is not the case with P&S or Mirrorless, where the average camera values increase more than production.

You can check CIPA data here. http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html






Oct 18, 2017 at 09:40 PM
1      
2
       3              6       7       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3              6       7       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.