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Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist
  
 
kbarrera
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Exactly. PayPal's policies are enabling this trend. What's to stop some idiot from buying a camera, using it for a photo shoot or recreational purposes and returning it after two weeks with some additional dings or scratches.
Unless there is a shift towards a different payment method......I'm done here on B&S.

Al



Oct 26, 2017 at 09:53 PM
anthonysemone
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Al, there is nothing to stop a "buyer" from doing that, except their own personal integrity. Indeed, PayPal authorized it IIRC with their SNAD policy return period of 6 months from date of purchase. If I'm to sell on this site, the best solution for me would be to sell to men and women whom I know; alternatively, USPS MO, personal check or Wells Fargo Sure Pay. I'll have some Olympus gear coming up soon on B&S and I'll offer each of those options. Just like the old days when selling other shooting equipment, on other sites of course.

anthony



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:03 AM
anthonysemone
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Sayin' it well, Sir. ^^^^+5


Oct 27, 2017 at 02:05 AM
jbregar
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Leaving negative feedback for someone just because they didn't "let you know the item arrived" is crap. You should know the item arrived (tracking) and assume it all went well unless you hear differently. If it's _really_ that important to you, reach out and ask them about it. If they don't respond to that effort, then I'd really assume it's just fine.

B&S is a business transaction. The buyer's responsibility is to pay you on time. The seller's job is to get it to the buyer in the condition presented. Anything over and above that is courtesy and not doing it certainly isn't worthy of negative feedback. When feeling slighted over courtesies is cause for negative feedback, negative feedback won't really have much meaning anymore.

Amazon doesn't require me to email them to say I'm happy with the gear they sent me. Neither do any eBay sellers.

Also, I took a look at a few of the OP's (kbarrera) B&S posts from recently. I notice you're doing the "PayPal Gift or Buyer Pays Fees" thing... otherwise known as "net to me." As a buyer, I nearly always pass by posts that mention that because (in my opinion) it shows a lack of integrity. When you sign up for and accept PayPal as a payment method, you contractually agree to abide by their Terms of Service. Those ToS explicitly forbid charging buyers a surcharge in order to pass along PayPal fees. They also set out "personal payments" (commonly known as "gift") as non-merchandise transactions.

So, you've agreed to abide by the PayPal ToS and then intentionally breached that agreement. Why should I expect any different dealing with me? I don't even have half the lawyers PayPal does... if you're willing to defraud them, why should I be any different as a buyer?

Not saying anything specifically about the OP in this case, but that's what runs through my mind when I see that on a listing... and I know I'm not alone among long-time members.



Oct 27, 2017 at 10:39 PM
kbarrera
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


jbregar wrote:
Leaving negative feedback for someone just because they didn't "let you know the item arrived" is crap. You should know the item arrived (tracking) and assume it all went well unless you hear differently. If it's _really_ that important to you, reach out and ask them about it. If they don't respond to that effort, then I'd really assume it's just fine.

B&S is a business transaction. The buyer's responsibility is to pay you on time. The seller's job is to get it to the buyer in the condition presented. Anything over and above that is courtesy and not doing it
...Show more

B&S is clearly a business transaction. I think owning a construction business in the NYC area for 43 years would qualify me as "experienced" when it comes to business. I only request PayPal gift for small items. What pisses me off is.....the fact that some buyers can't seem to find the time to pm or email me and let me know that they received the item, and that the transaction is complete. Nothing more. A business transaction is about expectations. The buyer expects that after payment, the item is shipped and delivered and that is in in fact what the seller said it was.
The seller has every right to expect a simple acknowledgement of receipt. To me it eliminates any chances of "buyers remorse" or other potential problems.
Seriously ? " breach, defraud, lack of integrity " ? Pretty strong language when referring to someone that you know absolutely nothing about.
You have the right to conduct your business as you see fit and so do I. If you see my name attached to a B&S item, then by all means walk on by. Just don't preach.

Al




Oct 27, 2017 at 11:10 PM
anthonysemone
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


It occurred to me that the Neutral category - widely under represented in usage - could well see more use. Iíd sure like to know if somebody doesnít respond out of common courtesy that they got my item .... signature confirmation notwithstanding. I mean, Iím sure thereís NEVER been an instance amongst members here where, despite having shown a signature (largely unreadable on the web, or stating, left at front desk, etc) but Buyer was not the one who signed for it, having been delivered to another person. Nope. Never happened.

Neutral category for feedback: for inconsiderate, non-conscientious transactions.



Oct 28, 2017 at 07:35 PM
Jonathan Brady
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


I'm with jbregar... I'm not a fan of forcing the customer to pay the fees that PayPal says you can't force them to pay. Just... Total it up and present an "out the door price". That's what I do.

The language I use is something like "$2000 includes all fees including insured Priority Shipping via USPS in the continental US".

With that, the buyer doesn't have to do any math. It's just... Convenient. I truly don't understand why that's not the standard.



Oct 29, 2017 at 04:29 AM
Reagan
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


I guess I have been lucky
no real problems but I only buy and sell to established people
If someone new wants an item I either request a phone number or pay with a money order before I ship
most people will comply if they really want the item
Same way whenI purchase something
I only buy from established members with feedback
I always look at people's post and scan their feedback before a deal
Google Earth their address before I ship
I probably am over cautious but it works for me

Reagan



Oct 29, 2017 at 12:09 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Yeah Google Earth exposed a huge scammer on FM a few years ago! Turned out his/her address was an intersection of 2 roads in New England somewhere and then showed real persons home(thanks to FedEx Fraud) in Calif. Good note!
Dan



Oct 29, 2017 at 12:49 PM
chez
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


jbregar wrote:
Leaving negative feedback for someone just because they didn't "let you know the item arrived" is crap. You should know the item arrived (tracking) and assume it all went well unless you hear differently. If it's _really_ that important to you, reach out and ask them about it. If they don't respond to that effort, then I'd really assume it's just fine.

B&S is a business transaction. The buyer's responsibility is to pay you on time. The seller's job is to get it to the buyer in the condition presented. Anything over and above that is courtesy and not doing it
...Show more

Totally agree with this post. Using the gift option for payment goes against what you signed up for with Paypal and goes against the TOS you agreed to. Does not matter if it's used for "low priced items" only...it's still breaking your agreements. I would never do business with people that want to use gift for payment...much bigger issue than someone not letting me know they received the package I sent.



Oct 29, 2017 at 01:31 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Jonathan Brady
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


As I said above, I always post the price including everything, but occasionally, if a buyer wants a discount that I'm unwilling to provide, I'll offer the option of paying via PayPal gift and give them 100% of the savings from doing so.


Oct 29, 2017 at 03:15 PM
kbarrera
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist



"I decided to do some serious house cleaning and sell everything that has not been used. I have, however, encountered a rash of, low ballers, unreturned pm's after the buyer contacted me, no feedback, retracted offers. By retracted, I mean. " sold ! Send me you PayPal account" only to be told, " Sorry, I changed my mind"
I own a construction company in the NYC, and no one has ever accused me of being overly sensitive or a whiner.
This behavior, to be honest, is pissing me off. I'm not sure if it's a sign of times, or is it just me.
Share your experiences, because I'd really like to know if it's " JUST ME"

This is my original post. So how did the conversation morph into this discussion about PayPal?
I'm not going to offer my opinion of PayPal and risk hearing any more lectures about their TOS and such. My original point is simple. The general conduct on the buy and sell forum has deteriorated and if anyone had similar experiences they should share them.

Al



Oct 29, 2017 at 03:37 PM
ckcarr
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Certain people who post here, their brains just seem to go there. Over and over and over. It's the sound of the police! The forum police... Must defend billionaires...


Oct 29, 2017 at 03:47 PM
kbarrera
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist





Oct 29, 2017 at 03:58 PM
jbregar
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Ya know... you can use something other than PayPal. That's the best way to avoid their fees while also keeping your word that you agreed to when you signed up with PayPal... and avoiding all the issues for both the buyer and seller that come around with using PP gift for merchandise.

And as for your "I only use gift for small stuff..." Your last B&S listing for the Nikon 300/4 suggests PayPal Gift or the buyer pays the fees. That's a $500 listing... not a $15,000 600/4 but also hardly "small stuff."

PayPal Gift on actual small stuff is even sillier. You're telling me a buck and a half on a $50 lens collar is really going to break you?

The point is, your PayPal Gift request is part of the problem. Established members generally pass by the PayPal Gifters. Therefore you're going to get a higher percentage of the jackasses. It's at least partially self-inflicted.

That said, I agree with you... the lowballing is a huge problem and I'm 100% anti-lowballer. It's also very frustrating to me when people either ghost you or withdraw their offers... but that's the nature of person-to-person transactions online, for better or worse. Hell, it happens with Craigslist when you get a text while you're waiting at Starbucks for a dude and find out he's not coming. At least in this case there's no real "out" except an email or two.



Oct 30, 2017 at 02:16 AM
kbarrera
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Point taken on the Nikon 300 f/4 lens listing. Funny you should mention a Canon 600 f/4 II though. If you had gone back just another two weeks in my transactions.....you would have seen that I did in fact sell that very lens for $9,250.00. You would have also noted that I did list that lens using regular PayPal and did pay all the fees.
Just sayin'

Al




Oct 30, 2017 at 03:02 AM
kbarrera
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


Oh yeah. I forgot to mention.......it was that sale that prompted me to start this thread. The crap that I dealt with was insane!! Lowballers, unreturned pm's, no communication, etc. When there's $ 9,250.00 on the line, that kind of BS will wear you out. I think that I'm done with B&S on FM for a while. Like I said that s**t wore me out.

Al



Oct 30, 2017 at 03:19 AM
jbregar
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


You'll love Craigslist and eBay then.

The thing is, this exists everywhere. Even in person. It's a consequence of doing business online like this... there's not really a person on the other end of the deal, it's just a deal.

I don't always leave feedback because I'm kind of busy and it slips my mind. 9 times out of 10 if the person reminds me, it'll happen. It's really not rudeness... at least not intentional rudeness... people are just busy.

As for the lowballing and other garbage I absolutely hate lowball offers. They generally get some snark in return when I probably should just move along and either ignore or say "no thank you." If your offer is under 90% of the asking price, you're being kind of rude in my opinion (unless the seller missed a sale or something, then mention that when you PM your offer). If it's under 60% in the same circumstances, you're definitely just being a jerk.

But on the flipside, I also hate WTB ads... because 9 times out of 10 when I PM them saying I have the gear they're looking for, they offer 50% of the going rate.

And yeah, if you tell me you'll take it but are at the store so you'll send PayPal in an hour then back out with some lame excuse, you're a scumbag.

But it all goes back to the fact that when I post gear, to a lot of these people I'm not a person... I'm "mini-Amazon." That's also how normal people justify ripping someone off with an unjustified PayPal claim or the like. Somewhere along the line it became ok to rip off companies because they're just big and faceless... and now that's moved down to the small faceless forum seller. This is one of the reasons I harp on the PayPal Gift thing. Making that ok means it's only a matter of time before it's ok to do the same thing to me.

Just my two pennies... that and a few bucks will get you a Pumpkin Spice Latte.



Oct 30, 2017 at 04:39 AM
kbarrera
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


jbregar wrote:
You'll love Craigslist and eBay then.

The thing is, this exists everywhere. Even in person. It's a consequence of doing business online like this... there's not really a person on the other end of the deal, it's just a deal.
.

I did withdraw the Nikon 300 and sold it on EBay. ( can't wait to see how that ends) I'm sticking to my original premise that FM is still the better option. I'm just going to take a break from selling any camera equipment for now.
Again....I'm not some whimpy, hyper sensitive seller. I run a construction business in the NYC area. I'm used to #** holes.
When I'm relaxing on my couch, watching a game or whatever I don't feel like dealing with more #**holes.

Al




Oct 30, 2017 at 10:23 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Buy & Sell turning into Craigslist


jbregar wrote:
... I also hate WTB ads... because 9 times out of 10 when I PM them saying I have the gear they're looking for, they offer 50% of the going rate...


Especially WTB ads on CL and kijiji (around here, kijiji is very active for photo gear). I've had at least three occasions where I've answered a kijiji WTB ad for an expensive item, and the seeker's reply was, "What's your address? I'll drop over". When I offered to meet at a neutral location (usually Timmy's or Starbucks), the conversation was over. Clearly, they wanted to know where I live. They were not concerned about asking price. If you know what I mean...



Oct 30, 2017 at 10:59 AM
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