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Thinking about switching to profoto
  
 
sungphoto
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Yes, completely agree - I much prefer the pack and head configuration. I wish the B1s had the ability to attach a remote head. It's hard for me to make a case for the B2 considering they're pretty much the same cost as the B1, and there are times (like next week where I'm doing a 25 person group photo) where I need a lot of power and I actually am going to use all four of my B1s.

So just so I understand regarding the litemotive bracket, the B1 would essentially just be inserted into the back and hang by the front mount?

I suppose the indirect elinchrom octas might not be doable though for anything other than a pack and head. I'll likely just get a 5 ft profoto RFI octa for that anyways.

Update: I ended up buying the Rotalux Deep Octa 100cm to play around with. So far comparing it to my 36" and 48" westcott rapid boxes, it's interesting how different they are from a construction standpoint.

I always felt like my 36" octa was a little too small, and the 48" was a little too big for the small room corporate stuff I shoot.

The Rapid Boxes are built really well, and have pretty heavy duty construction. Because of that though they aren't the lightest modifiers out there, especially once you add the reflector plate. The Rotalux Deep Octa 39" is actually lighter than the 36" Westcott Rapid Box at 2.3 lbs vs 2.6 lbs, and significantly lighter than my 48" Rapid Box which is 3.3 lbs. Not a huge deal, but when it's already a little heavy boomed out with a B1, that pound makes a difference.

The Rotalux is also much deeper than the similar width Rapid Box 36". It's about a half foot deeper. This I assume will create a more directional light than the shallower rapid box but I'm no light modifier designer I would also assume this will lead to more even distribution of light across the entire surface of the diffusion material. This again is something I don't know for sure yet as I have the rotalux to profoto speed ring on order.

The Rotalux has a crinkled silver while the rapid boxes have a tight flat silver interior surface. Not sure how that will affect the quality of light when the diffusion material is removed.

Lastly, the way the (optional) deflector plate attaches, and the design of the ribs is very different between the Westcott Rapid Box and Rotalux. The Rapid Boxes open like an umbrella, with internal bracing - that bracing criss-crosses over the light source when you have the diffusion material removed (my favorite setup for this type of light is just the inner diffusion panel and the deflector plate). The thing that I always disliked about the rapid boxes though is you can see that criss-crossing of the ribs, kind of like bicycle wheels, in the catch light when used this way. The design of the rotalux speed ring should in theory not do this, which I'm excited about. Yes I know small things that really only other photographers notice, but I'm excited to try it out.

I may pick up the Rotalux 27.5" as well, but I'm a little torn as I really like the Westcott Joel Grimes 24" beauty dish as I tend to prefer a white interior for a beauty dish.



Oct 20, 2017 at 09:37 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Thinking about switching to profoto


sungphoto wrote:
Yes, completely agree - I much prefer the pack and head configuration. I wish the B1s had the ability to attach a remote head. It's hard for me to make a case for the B2 considering they're pretty much the same cost as the B1, and there are times (like next week where I'm doing a 25 person group photo) where I need a lot of power and I actually am going to use all four of my B1s.


Yes the B2 is a nice form factor but it lacks power.

sungphoto wrote:
So just so I understand regarding the litemotive bracket, the B1 would essentially just be inserted into the back and hang by the front mount?


Yes that is correct, the Litemotiv in it self weighs a lot more then a standard softbox and of course way more then Rotalux box. So addinga strobe on the back actually acts as a counterweight balancing the setup and center the weight on the stand/bracket

Most, however, will consider the Litemotiv 120 and 190 as studio modifiers, not made for fast assembly on location.

sungphoto wrote:
I suppose the indirect elinchrom octas might not be doable though for anything other than a pack and head. I'll likely just get a 5 ft profoto RFI octa for that anyways.


Well the bracket is strong enough to hold a compact like ELC or a B1. Though i have replaced the original swivel mount on all my indirect's with a D200 griphead just to make it more sturdier. (a mod that i really recommend and takes no more then a minute to do)

There is a reason the Indirect Octa has been used for years by other users then Elinchrom, especially Profoto users. The bank is extremely even across the surface and the shallow design and quick setup is yet to be matched.

sungphoto wrote:
Update: I ended up buying the Rotalux Deep Octa 100cm to play around with. So far comparing it to my 36" and 48" westcott rapid boxes, it's interesting how different they are from a construction standpoint.


Well the Rotalux is "standard" softbox design, while the westcott are brolly boxes. Im not a big fan of brolly boxes, i rather user Deep ubmrellas.

sungphoto wrote:
I always felt like my 36" octa was a little too small, and the 48" was a little too big for the small room corporate stuff I shoot.

The Rapid Boxes are built really well, and have pretty heavy duty construction. Because of that though they aren't the lightest modifiers out there, especially once you add the reflector plate. The Rotalux Deep Octa 39" is actually lighter than the 36" Westcott Rapid Box at 2.3 lbs vs 2.6 lbs, and significantly lighter than my 48" Rapid Box which is 3.3 lbs. Not a huge deal, but when it's already a little
...Show more

Westcott and many others indeed use heavier fabrics, that doesn't necessarily mean they are more durable or better quality. For example take fabrics used in foldable reflectors or scrims, many of the Chinese made/brands will flake, seems will rip after light use.Compare that to Lastolite which actually sew their stuff in the UK and spends a lot of time and effort to use high quality fabrics and makes extremely durable seems. Their stuff holds up very well to professional use. Even popular California Sunbounce is inferior when it comes to the fabric.

I'v owned/own photoflex, westcott and chimera boxes. Noone of them can match the Rotalux in terms of setup, weight, and portability. Chimera is very nice, but still not as fast and easy as rotalux.

With the B1's weight is certainly a factor so I think you made a good choice.

sungphoto wrote:
The Rotalux is also much deeper than the similar width Rapid Box 36". It's about a half foot deeper. This I assume will create a more directional light than the shallower rapid box but I'm no light modifier designer I would also assume this will lead to more even distribution of light across the entire surface of the diffusion material. This again is something I don't know for sure yet as I have the rotalux to profoto speed ring on order.


In general yes comparing apples to apples the deep octa vs the regular octa there is a real difference. To even the spread you can use a deflector. I assume it will be a little off center as the Profoto lacks a centered umbrella holder.

sungphoto wrote:
The Rotalux has a crinkled silver while the rapid boxes have a tight flat silver interior surface. Not sure how that will affect the quality of light when the diffusion material is removed.[/quote

It's to make the modifier more efficient in reflecting the light.

sungphoto wrote:
Lastly, the way the (optional) deflector plate attaches, and the design of the ribs is very different between the Westcott Rapid Box and Rotalux. The Rapid Boxes open like an umbrella, with internal bracing - that bracing criss-crosses over the light source when you have the diffusion material removed (my favorite setup for this type of light...Show more

Yes as the Westcott in essences is brolly boxes the spokes are there just as in an umbrella. The rotalux will behave like any other "standard" softbox no rods/spokes in front of the flash tube.

sungphoto wrote:
I may pick up the Rotalux 27.5" as well, but I'm a little torn as I really like the Westcott Joel Grimes 24" beauty dish as I tend to prefer a white interior for a beauty dish.
...Show more

Well get going with the 100 and see how you like it, then you can make an educated decision whether it will be worth it to get the smaller one.

I'm sure you will be pleased with it, and it would be cool if you'd report back what you think of the Deep Octa.

Regards
Paul L.


Edited on Oct 21, 2017 at 12:42 PM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2017 at 08:08 AM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Thinking about switching to profoto


sungphoto wrote:
The Rotalux is also much deeper than the similar width Rapid Box 36". It's about a half foot deeper. This I assume will create a more directional light than the shallower rapid box but I'm no light modifier designer


The answer is "it depends", but mostly people should get out of their head the idea that deep = directional = control = parabolic or whatever . In general, depth is not correlated with directionality, far from it.

In the following photo, a Broncolor 75cm octabox (which geometry is similar to most other deep octaboxes, such as the Rotalux ones), when used with two diffusion layers, sends a beam of light that's as wide as, for example, a shallow Paul Buff PLM soft silver with diffusion, a deep white umbrella, or a naked B2 head.



The location of the front diffuser (well, at the front), and the strength of the diffusion material used in this modifier ensure that, basically, light is scattered at a wide angle.

That being said, if you use only the inner diffuser, then yes, a deep octabox will restrict the beam angle a little bit more than a shallower one, as the "naked" sides will sort of flag the light a little bit. But don't expect anything as close as using a grid. In the following photo, the Broncolor with only its inner diffuser (top right) sends a little bit less light towards the sides (PLM soft silver and Cactus silver - shallow BTW - umbrellas naked for relative comparison).



Using octaboxes with only the inner diffuser is something that I've seen a lot and in that use case a deep one can prove more versatile.

Some soft boxes may use weaker diffusion materials, which may slightly help in constraining the light (again, nowhere near as good as a grid or other modifiers), but at the cost of illumination evenness.

sungphoto wrote:
I would also assume this will lead to more even distribution of light across the entire surface of the diffusion material. This again is something I don't know for sure yet as I have the rotalux to profoto speed ring on order.


Again, "it depends" . There are various ways to improve illumination evenness. One, for example, quite often found in large octaboxes, is to double the diffusion material in the centre of the inner diffuser. This blocks more light from going through in the centre than at the sides, improving illumination evenness.



Another solution Elinchrom proposes, for example, is to use their deflectors :



So to sum it up : depth isn't necessarily correlated with illumination evenness.

sungphoto wrote:
Yes, completely agree - I much prefer the pack and head configuration. I wish the B1s had the ability to attach a remote head. It's hard for me to make a case for the B2 considering they're pretty much the same cost as the B1, and there are times (like next week where I'm doing a 25 person group photo) where I need a lot of power and I actually am going to use all four of my B1s.


Inasmuch as I agree that Profoto should have tried a little bit harder to improve the Ws rating of the B2, and that its battery life (210 x 250 Ws) is ridiculously poor, I can't help but notice that a lot of people tend to use very inefficient ways of lighting, even when using batteries operated strobes.

As an illustration to that, the soft silver PLM above, with its diffusion cover, will produce a light that's similar to a directly mounted soft box of a similar size and with two diffusion layers, but is around a whole stop more efficient (because it's indirectly mounted, and properly designed with the right pseudo-parabolic shape and the right silver material, it doesn't really need diffusion to be reasonably well evenly illuminated even naked, so there is no need to pile up diffusion layers to get good results). In many situations, for various reasons, a soft box will be a much better choice, but I've also witnessed situations where a soft silver PLM would have been just fine instead of a soft box and helped with efficiency.

Another illustration is that I've seen countless times people not bothering to effectively kill the bare flash tube spill when using umbrellas, which not only may pose problems when trying to control the light, but also wastes a lot of power as not all of the light goes into the umbrella to be reflected back at the subject.

So Ws ratings are one thing of interest, but lighting with efficiency in mind is IMO just as important if not more - if only because you'll increase your battery life.

I have to say that the B2 with its crappy battery is a pretty good school for that .



Oct 21, 2017 at 10:11 AM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Well, just about everything in lighting depends.. on one or more factors. :-)

But I'm interested in knowing what I'm actually looking at.

The first image bottom left has a bare head of the B2 and the bottom left the PLM with diffusor, correct?

So from this visual comparison, some inexperienced users could conclude there really isn't that much of a difference between using a bare bulb and a modifier which turns the source into an indirect one with a second layer of diffusion.

Or have I misunderstood your test image?

While I agree that inexperienced users can light stuff very inefficiently very few professionals starts with efficiency in mind when they set the light. I think it's only the ones that are really limited by the power they have available or size of power they can use.

It's like a photographer that uses a tripod with a long lens and extend the center column first to it's maxed and then adjust the legs... :-)

But of course, professionals light with what they have available or what they are limited to. If I was forced on setting light with low powered units like the B2 and A1 I would indeed be more concerned about getting the most out of the units for sure.

But having that same reasoning when I'm not restricted to use low powered units is beginning in at the wrong end for me. I set the light based on what I want to achieve, then I pick the source best suited to the task.







Oct 21, 2017 at 11:43 AM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Fotografpaul wrote:
Well, just about everything in lighting depends.. on one or more factors. :-)

But I'm interested in knowing what I'm actually looking at.

The first image bottom left has a bare head of the B2 and the bottom left the PLM with diffusor, correct?

So from this visual comparison, some inexperienced users could conclude there really isn't that much of a difference between using a bare bulb and a modifier which turns the source into an indirect one with a second layer of diffusion.

Or have I misunderstood your test image?


The comparison is only meant to illustrate beam angle / directionality (pick the term you prefer ), which is the subject of Sungphoto's considerations in the part that I quoted. In that case, yes, there is little difference with the B2's bare head (and its evil recessed bulb) and a PLM with diffusion, or a white umbrella, or Broncolor's octabox with two diffusion layers.

Of course light quality is overall quite different. It isn't exactly like a 8cm B2 head will give the same look on a subject as a much larger modifier . But I did these photos a while back for my personal use to test efficiency (not even beam angle actually) so I didn't bother setting up a whole scene to highlight these differences. Actually, it's a poor test to test efficiency between modifiers with a different beam angle, but that's another problem .

But I hope that these pictures makes it clear that more depth doesn't necessarily mean that a modifier is more directional, which is a fallacy marketing departments seem to be particularly enamoured with. Things are unfortunately far more complicated than that.

Fotografpaul wrote:
While I agree that inexperienced users can light stuff very inefficiently very few professionals starts with efficiency in mind when they set the light. I think it's only the ones that are really limited by the power they have available or size of power they can use.

It's like a photographer that uses a tripod with a long lens and extend the center column first to it's maxed and then adjust the legs... :-)

But of course, professionals light with what they have available or what they are limited to. If I was forced on setting light with low powered units
...Show more

I can't disagree with that, but what I'm on about is : sometimes, you can achieve similar if not identical results in a more efficient way. The same goal can be met more efficiently, basically. If you're on battery it isn't exactly a bad idea to strive for that.

Even then I'll readily admit that there are considerations not even related to light quality to take into account : packing weight, mounting options, etc...




Oct 21, 2017 at 12:09 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Thanx for the clarification!

Then it makes sense!

I agree that deeper doesn't necessarily mean more directional or focused- But comparing apples to apples, the 100cm Octa vs the 100cm Deep octa there is a difference for sure.




Oct 21, 2017 at 12:38 PM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Fotografpaul wrote:
I agree that deeper doesn't necessarily mean more directional or focused- But comparing apples to apples, the 100cm Octa vs the 100cm Deep octa there is a difference for sure.


Not denying that - I have never even touched the regular 100cm Rotalux so obviously I wouldn't know. But many other variables have to be taken into account, such as the strength of the diffusion.

BTW, how are your Rotalux holding up, particularly the silver lining ? I have noticed that it had peeled away in some areas on a few of them, but since I've only used them when assisting and since most of them were rentals, I suspect that there had been quite a lot mishandling going on. Any tip about preserving their integrity in the long run ?



Oct 21, 2017 at 01:02 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Thinking about switching to profoto


MayaTlab wrote:
BTW, how are your Rotalux holding up, particularly the silver lining ? I have noticed that it had peeled away in some areas on a few of them, but since I've only used them when assisting and since most of them were rentals, I suspect that there had been quite a lot mishandling going on. Any tip about preserving their integrity in the long run ?


Have pretty much all the Rotalux boxes, got my first around 2005, still have my first Rotalux 100x100cm.

They have been holding up very well, the silver lining where an issue many years ago with a batch where they peeled off very easily.


However, they did fix a weakness in the hole where the speed ring mounts (where the silver lining started to peel off (not related to the faulty batch) now they have put on an extra wide layer of fabric (it's the grey patch of fabric surrounding the speed ring hole) around it. This was done a couple of years ago.

I'v used/use all my boxes on location, as I don't have a permanent studio. 99% I shoot on location and when I shoot in rental studios I often bring my own gear as well.

But to give you an idea, out of over 10 rotalux boxes i have had two failing on me in total since 2005. Both issues where with the silver lining peeling off (both predates the fix with reinforced fabric)
both replaced free of charge from Elinchrom despite them being years out of warranty.

So from that perspective, they have fared better than the chimera and westcott and photoflex boxes i'v had.


Though I agree that Rotalux is probably not very well suited for rental studios where they get tossed around like mad.

So no other tip then keeping them in their bags when transporting and not to abuse them to much.



Oct 21, 2017 at 01:36 PM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Thanks for the explanation !


Oct 21, 2017 at 02:19 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Will do. If I find a willing model and have the time, I may do a little comparison of the Westcott Rapid 36" and the Rotalux 39", as they are in a lot of ways very similar modifiers.

I'd agree with your thought that the thicker fabric of the Westcott modifiers doesn't necessarily equate to a more durable modifier, especially with something that has to be stretched out on a routine basis. I have used my 36" heavily, and though it is still in great condition, it is wearing through the fabric a tiny bit on one or two areas where the outer ribs join with the inner ribs (as the joint has a sharper edge). I'd imagine that eventually the rib will break through the fabric completely, but it'll take a long time for that. It'll be interesting to see how the crinkly silver compares to the taut silver interior on the westcott (Westcott emphasizes the tight interior surface in their marketing of the rapid boxes quite a bit) when I use it with just the inner diffusion.

Thanks for all of your insight on these modifiers. I'm excited to use them more.

Fotografpaul wrote:



Oct 21, 2017 at 05:48 PM
 

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sungphoto
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Just checked mine, and it does have the updated design with the fabric reinforcement around the speedring mount.

Fotografpaul wrote:
Have pretty much all the Rotalux boxes, got my first around 2005, still have my first Rotalux 100x100cm.

They have been holding up very well, the silver lining where an issue many years ago with a batch where they peeled off very easily.

However, they did fix a weakness in the hole where the speed ring mounts (where the silver lining started to peel off (not related to the faulty batch) now they have put on an extra wide layer of fabric (it's the grey patch of fabric surrounding the speed ring hole) around it. This was done a couple of
...Show more




Oct 21, 2017 at 05:51 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Thanks as always for your thoughts MayaTlab.

I think if you believe Elinchrom's marketing, the deeper design of their octa is supposed to increase the efficiency of the modifier compared to probably the octas a lot of people end up also considering like the profoto 3 ft and westcott rapid 36.

That said, as you mentioned there's a lot of factors involved in maximizing efficiency, and Elinchrom's modifiers are likely optimized for their bare bulb design.

MayaTlab wrote:
The comparison is only meant to illustrate beam angle / directionality (pick the term you prefer ), which is the subject of Sungphoto's considerations in the part that I quoted. In that case, yes, there is little difference with the B2's bare head (and its evil recessed bulb) and a PLM with diffusion, or a white umbrella, or Broncolor's octabox with two diffusion layers.

Of course light quality is overall quite different. It isn't exactly like a 8cm B2 head will give the same look on a subject as a much larger modifier . But I did these photos a while
...Show more




Oct 21, 2017 at 06:01 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Thinking about switching to profoto


sungphoto wrote:
Just checked mine, and it does have the updated design with the fabric reinforcement around the speedring mount.


Yes the this was an update made years ago, so there really shouldn't be any stock with the old design left.

With that said there are new "versions" out which is exactly like the previous versions when it comes to the actual box.

What's changed is the following:


  1. New retail boxes with the new Elinchrom graphic design
  2. New bags, black with label pockets (so you can stick in a card with the size of the box, so you don't have to open the bag to see what's inside)
  3. No speed ring is included in the box, you buy the speed ring separately for the mount you need.
  4. The Elinchrom Speed ring is replaced with one version that fits all boxes and with improved springs for the rod mounts and color codes.





A overview of the new "version" can be seen here






Oct 21, 2017 at 06:41 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Haha awesome. Great work by the way, followed you on Instagram.


Oct 22, 2017 at 05:27 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Thanx! Cool!

Just finished a new quick stop motion on the ELB 1200. Will be posted soon on my IG.



Oct 24, 2017 at 03:12 AM
sungphoto
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Thinking about switching to profoto


@fotografpaul @MayaTlab any idea how to mount the deflector plate when you are using a rotalux deep octa on a B1? I've read threads that say you can, but I don't see a way to do it with the provided hardware. Guessing best way to do it would be to get a threaded rod for the place the speedring lock goes, and then mount the deflector plate to that?


Oct 24, 2017 at 11:34 PM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Sorry, no idea. The B1/D1/D2 were unfortunately / fortunately designed with the umbrella shaft outside of the mount's diameter, which prevents its use when the mount is used - but conversely allows for very easy gelling.


Oct 25, 2017 at 12:09 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Thinking about switching to profoto


sungphoto wrote:
@fotografpaul@ @MayaTlab any idea how to mount the deflector plate when you are using a rotalux deep octa on a B1? I've read threads that say you can, but I don't see a way to do it with the provided hardware. Guessing best way to do it would be to get a threaded rod for the place the speedring lock goes, and then mount the deflector plate to that?


Sadly this does not seem to be possible oout of the box, even if you could mount the deflector in the Profoto umbrella mount, it would be off center. And from what i understand the deflector shaft is to short anyway.

But attaching the deflector shaft into the speedring (by removing the locking knob) is easy enough as long as you get some threads at the other end.






Oct 25, 2017 at 03:07 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Thanks @Fotografpaul, it looks pretty easy to jerry-rig something so I'll prob figure something out.

I'm surprised how different the elinchrom and westcott octas are in terms of quality of light, with just inner diffusion as well as with both diffusion panels.

The Elinchrom with double diffusion has a more even spread of light regardless of where the subject is placed on axis of the light - ie moving a subject above or below the center axis of the modifier doesn't seem to create hot spots. The thing that I've always kind of disliked with the rapid boxes is that the double diffusion has a definite hotspot in the center even with the deflector plate mounted.

What I was really surprised by is that the Elinchrom with just the inner diffusion panel (and no deflector plate), the quality of light is still quite soft - softer than the Westcott with just the inner diffusion panel and deflector plate. I think it's because the crinkly silver interior does a better job of softening the light versus the taut silver interior panels of the westcott. Waiting for the rest of my profoto speed rings so I can use my typical 3 light setup for portrait sessions. Also have a 5 ft profoto octa coming.




Oct 25, 2017 at 08:18 PM
Fotografpaul
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Thinking about switching to profoto


Sounds like the Rotalux is a good fit for you! Nice!

Yeah the Deep octas with just the inner baffle is how i use them 99%, as well as the Litemotiv 120.

Lovely light!




Oct 26, 2017 at 04:14 PM
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