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Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!
  
 
Daniel Smith
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Canon with no really low ISO settings makes for problems at times.
Photographing blackbirds massing on commercial sunflower fields and wanted blurring of the bird flocks as they undulated back and forth.

ISO100 is the lowest on the bodies I have. 400 f/2.8 stopped all the way down to get motion blur I wanted.

Would have been so much easier to have ISO 3 or 6, or even 25 as we had with Kodachrome.

I know some will say to use a ND filter. Shooting moving action and then having to stop and add a filter as the birds moved into a better background for slow shutter speeds is not working.

Would have liked to be able to shoot 1 second or so exposures on the big flocks for motion blur by lowering ISO to what I used with film while still being able to pop the ISO back up to 200 for stopping the motion when they massed in different parts of the field.

Canon - get us some Lower ISO settings, please!



Oct 02, 2017 at 05:17 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Well, there is usually a 'low' setting that's approximate to ISO50 that dumps some dynamic range...

And/or, try burst stacking?



Oct 02, 2017 at 05:20 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Daniel Smith wrote:
Canon with no really low ISO settings makes for problems at times.
Photographing blackbirds massing on commercial sunflower fields and wanted blurring of the bird flocks as they undulated back and forth.

ISO100 is the lowest on the bodies I have. 400 f/2.8 stopped all the way down to get motion blur I wanted.

Would have been so much easier to have ISO 3 or 6, or even 25 as we had with Kodachrome.

I know some will say to use a ND filter. Shooting moving action and then having to stop and add a filter as the birds moved into a better
...Show more
How many people do you think are in the same boat and want such low ISO? Given the technology today, a switchable/variable built-in ND filter on the sensor is the only way that will happen - could be done but is there enough market for it? Or do you have some thoughts on how to do it? How much normal/high ISO performance would you give up to gain this if it wasn’t switchable? Canon has a patent for an LCD over the sensor that works like a contrast mask and darkens pixels when the “pre-image” indicates high luminance - the exposure is done and those pixels are bumped up agian during output to give wider DR. Could double as such an ND filter. A rather niche development project that will probably never see the, ahem, light of day



Oct 02, 2017 at 06:10 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


You can buy a 52mm drop in-ND filter for your lens. At that size, even a high quality filter should be pretty cheap. And with the drop in holder, it takes a second to replace. I don't see why this couldn't work.


Oct 02, 2017 at 07:22 AM
jhg photo
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Yes, I agree that avoiding to fumble around with an ND filter by setting ultralow 12 or 25 ISO would be fine. I don't know, however, whether this could easily be achieved but simply is not done due to missing interst of the photographers or whether this is quite technically demanding.


Oct 02, 2017 at 07:23 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


jhg photo wrote:
Yes, I agree that avoiding to fumble around with an ND filter by setting ultralow 12 or 25 ISO would be fine. I don't know, however, whether this could easily be achieved but simply is not done due to missing interst of the photographers or whether this is quite technically demanding.


It is quite technically demanding. The problem is that there is not enough room on the sensor to store the electrical charge that builds up during exposure.

There are a few ways to help slightly, but only slightly.

It could be possible to use more sensor real estate to charge storage versus other critical functions like the photosensitive diode itself, but nobody wants that as it would severely impact the sensitivity and noise.

It is possible to make physically deeper wells, like in the EXMOR generation used in the Nikon D810, or with BSI/Stacked sensors like in the D850. This wil give about 2/3 stops lower ISO, without any clear disadvantage.

It is also possible to make the color filter denser. That will also imact sensitivity and noise, but part of the impact will be compensated by the better color sensitivity that will require less amplification of the color channels and hence less amplification of noise in the image. The new PhaseOne Trichomatic sensor does this, and this gives ISO 35 compared to 50 for nornal color filter PhaseOne backs with the same underlying sensor. Before the 5DS was released, there were rumors that it would do the same, but it turned out not to be the case.


Edited on Oct 02, 2017 at 07:58 AM · View previous versions



Oct 02, 2017 at 07:55 AM
hotdog12
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


I agree with the OP. I always thought an ultra-low setting far below ISO 50 would permit landscape photographers to shoot those misty flowing water shots without the use of 8 or 10 stop ND filters. A lower ISO would also be useful for panning shots in action photography.

Not something I am would use on a frequent basis, but it would be a nice feature.



Oct 02, 2017 at 07:57 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


It wouls also be possible to implement an ISO "amplifier" with gain less than 1 for the lower ISO settings. That would not help with one of things I want most from a lower ISO settings, higher photographic dynamic range. While I personally would not be interested in such a solution, I can see that it can have a place. And I would prefer that solution over a built-in ND filter in front of the sensor. The negative impacts of a low ISO "attenuator" would be small, but I doubt it will be a priority in sensor development.



Oct 02, 2017 at 08:26 AM
Snopchenko
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


I'm using ISO 50 all the time, and wouldn't mind having ISO 25(ish) so that I don't need to stop down to kingdom come if I want to get the required motion blur in daylight (when I'm in that kind of mood. )


Oct 02, 2017 at 01:42 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


alundeb wrote:
It wouls also be possible to implement an ISO "amplifier" with gain less than 1 for the lower ISO settings. That would not help with one of things I want most from a lower ISO settings, higher photographic dynamic range. While I personally would not be interested in such a solution, I can see that it can have a place. And I would prefer that solution over a built-in ND filter in front of the sensor. The negative impacts of a low ISO "attenuator" would be small, but I doubt it will be a priority in sensor development.


Such an amplifier comes in the chain after the exposure, when the well has collected the incoming photons - so any well that has saturated because of the longer exposure will just be read out as (saturation value x attenuation factor). As you said above, either the wells have to be able to collect more before saturation for the longer exposure (higher full well capacity) or the rate at which photons are recorded needs to be attenuated (= filter). but the need for such a system is much greater for video than stills, so the R&D cost pays off.

The C300 MkII has “ND filter: 5 density settings (2,4,6,8(*),10(*) stops) [(*) when expansion is selected]; Motorized drive”. If the OP is OK with ~9 MP stills, then this is the solution

There’s a picture of the built-in ND filters of the C300 MkI
here

The (discontinued) Fuji 100T had a 3EV built-in ND filter.



Oct 02, 2017 at 03:20 PM
 

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EB-1
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Can you send a camera to one of the firms that specializes in IR conversions to have an ND installed on the sensor? You could wait forever for Nikon to design a camera with an internal ND.

EBH



Oct 02, 2017 at 04:27 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


ND filters are your friends.


Oct 02, 2017 at 04:30 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!




AJSJones wrote:
Such an amplifier comes in the chain after the exposure, when the well has collected the incoming photons - so any well that has saturated because of the longer exposure will just be read out as (saturation value x attenuation factor). As you said above, either the wells have to be able to collect more before saturation for the longer exposure (higher full well capacity) or the rate at which photons are recorded needs to be attenuated (= filter). but the need for such a system is much greater for video than stills, so the R&D cost pays off.

The
...Show more
At least Aptina has a patent for dual gain before charge storage.



Oct 02, 2017 at 04:36 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


EB-1 wrote:
Can you send a camera to one of the firms that specializes in IR conversions to have an ND installed on the sensor? You could wait forever for Nikon to design a camera with an internal ND.

EBH


If you wanted to dedicate it so the DR vs ISO curve was permanently shifted by the value of the ND. They have the technical expertise - locating a thin enough colour neutral ND would be the only hurdle. Many of those IR filters block the visible light, but I’ve no idea how their spectrum looks.

Maybe it’s a kickstarter project for an IR filter conversion that neutrally blocks visible light by 4-6 stops for IR use, and then you use an IR blocker on the lens to do low ISO visible blackbird and waterfall shooting - oh, wait, the OP doesn’t like to puton/take off filters Anyway, it would be low ISO and still adustable by the ISO setting - maybe that would be acceptable....



Oct 02, 2017 at 04:38 PM
scalesusa
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Its not easy to cut low ISO without cutting high ISO as well. I've seen some patents with liquid crystal ND filters that could be electronically controlled to reduce light or become transparent, but I suspect that they interfere with resolution.

Hasselblad has filters with a bayonet mount, you do not have to thread them on and off. However, for Canon wide angle lenses, a add-on with bayonet attachment for a filter would likely cause vignetting. Lee has a direct mounting filter holder that attaches to the lens hood groove, but I place it into the klunky category for everyday usage.

I think it would be possible to design a series of bayonet mount circular filter holders that would not vignette, but they would interfere with lens hoods and have limited usage and thus high cost.



Oct 02, 2017 at 05:53 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


scalesusa wrote:
Its not easy to cut low ISO without cutting high ISO as well. I've seen some patents with liquid crystal ND filters that could be electronically controlled to reduce light or become transparent, but I suspect that they interfere with resolution.

Hasselblad has filters with a bayonet mount, you do not have to thread them on and off. However, for Canon wide angle lenses, a add-on with bayonet attachment for a filter would likely cause vignetting. Lee has a direct mounting filter holder that attaches to the lens hood groove, but I place it into the klunky category for everyday usage.

I
...Show more

I had thought of the monolithic LCD in front of the sensor - perhaps it could double as the AA filter I can't find the patent where it's a B/W digital array that is fed a picture of the highlight areas in a preexposure to allow longer overall exposures at a given ISO...
The OP was asking about inside the camera because taking NDs off and putting them back on quickly was not acceptable...



Oct 02, 2017 at 06:58 PM
scalesusa
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


AJSJones wrote:
I had thought of the monolithic LCD in front of the sensor - perhaps it could double as the AA filter I can't find the patent where it's a B/W digital array that is fed a picture of the highlight areas in a preexposure to allow longer overall exposures at a given ISO...
The OP was asking about inside the camera because taking NDs off and putting them back on quickly was not acceptable...

there is one here, but it might have been something else I recalled seeing. The concept could be used anywhere, in a lens, in a camera, or, in this case, in a adapter.

https://petapixel.com/2015/09/17/this-is-a-prototype-of-an-electronically-controlled-nd-filter-lens-adapter/

Here is one that could go over a sensor

http://www.lc-tec.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/PolarView%C2%AE-ND212-AR-specification-1701.pdf




Oct 06, 2017 at 03:50 AM
IndyFab
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Just a thought, why not take a picture OOF and then another in focus, and blend both


Oct 06, 2017 at 04:08 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


Well, since the recent cameras are ISO 64 (performance vs. 100 rating), you're only talking a single stop to get down to ISO 32 or 2 stops to get down to ISO 16. Well within a polarizer amount of light reduction to get you below film @ K25.

So, if you had a two stop swing, that would then mean you'd be shooting ISO 800 instead of 200 if you left the polarizer (or ND) on (i.e. no stopping to remove) ... or a 1 stop of shutter + 1 stop of ISO @ 400 if you're up against the wall @ 2.8.

I'm a long time ISO 50 shooter, so I appreciate a low ISO too. But, I sure wouldn't hold my breath for ISO 6 or 12 from anyone. I had ISO 6 / 12 / 25 / 50 capability on my Kodak SLR/C with a base ISO of 160. Since it was an "electronic trickery" to achieve such, you were restricted to an EV range from which to apply it. I suspect that if you want to truly have such a low ISO without some form or "electronic trickery", well ... I really don't see anyone going there anytime soon.

Personally, I'd welcome a native ISO of 32 - 3200 with superb quality throughout. Even 16 - 1600 would be good (although it would be niche). My trouble with the SLR/C was that it fell apart after ISO 320. But, if you want something that can go from ISO 6 to ISO 200, it could cover that range OK.



Oct 06, 2017 at 05:15 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon - get LOWER ISO SETTINGS!


IndyFab wrote:
Just a thought, why not take a picture OOF and then another in focus, and blend both


The AA filter makes 4 pictures, displaced 1 pixel in each direction, so yeah



Oct 06, 2017 at 01:08 PM
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