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Archive 2017 · D850 and moire?

plnelson
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D850 and moire?

I mainly do two kinds of photography - studio and wildlife. Like many Nikon photographers I'm excited about the new D850 and am considering getting one (currently I have a D300 and a D800).

For wildlife I mostly shoot with fast primes, so the high res sensor, fast focusing and lack of an antialias filter should make this an excellent super-sharp wildlife body.

But for studio I'm worried - I mostly do fashion and figure work, and even the figure work involves lots of fabric since I like to work with models in motion with large pieces of fabric, or fabric blowing in "wind" created by industrial fans. Because my shots tend to be dynamic - the model and fabric are moving, and often I'm moving for different angles and framing, lots of different distances and angles are possible. A camera body without an antialias filter might be subject to moire. How big a problem is this likely to be? What websites are likely to test for this and report on it?

Thanks in advance.

Sep 26, 2017 at 12:42 PM

Desmolicious
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D850 and moire?

lensrentals.com has the 850 available. Rent one for a couple of days and test it out in your studio with a model and bunch of different fabrics.

Sep 26, 2017 at 12:55 PM

plnelson
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D850 and moire?

lensrentals.com has the 850 available. Rent one for a couple of days and test it out in your studio with a model and bunch of different fabrics.

That would be an expensive test, - the model, the studio assistant, the rental - so before doing it, if I can find something online to give me a hint or clue first of whether I'm wasting my time and money it would be good. Offhand I don't recall dpreview routinely testing for moire - do they? Over the next few months we can expect lots of reviews of the 850 (most of what's online now are PREviews or out-of-the-box initial impressions) so who is likely to examine moire?

Sep 26, 2017 at 01:05 PM

gdsf2
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D850 and moire?

I think you can look at the review for the D810. It also has no antialiasing filter. I think you will find the consensus is it is not a problem and any moiré that does occur is easily removed in post processing by all major software. In other words, you should be absolutely fine.

Sep 26, 2017 at 01:10 PM

plnelson
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D850 and moire?

The 810 had decidedly mixed reviews on moire. http://www.nikonblog.net/content/nikon-d810-and-taste-moire

Or

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55689774
AND
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55690104

There are some people who said it's not a problem, or who found it easy to fix in post, but most of the tools that fix it in post seem to work better with the kind of moire that occurs in regular almost orthogonal geometric patterns, like in architectural photography than in the curvy, varying swirling moire you get in waving cloth.

On the other hand the pixel resolution of the D850 is higher, which might place the pixel pitch below that of the D810 and so would have less or no moire.

Sep 26, 2017 at 01:25 PM

gdsf2
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D850 and moire?

Well, I guess you will have to wait and see.

Sep 26, 2017 at 01:54 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D850 and moire?

I did a reach-limited resolution comparison of the D810 and D7100 some time ago. There was noticeably less moire on the D7100 vs the D810, owing to the D7100's finer pixel-pitch, which is equivalent to a 54MP full-frame sensor. I'm suspecting then that the D850 will be somewhere between the D810 and D7100 in terms of moire. Here's a link to my thread and images:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1336970

Sep 26, 2017 at 02:12 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D850 and moire?

You don't need a model or assistant for your testing.

Just hang some different fabrics, have a fan blowing on them, and click away.

Sep 26, 2017 at 02:22 PM

CanadaMark
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D850 and moire?

The D850 will be even better than the D810 with regards to moire, and in general it is simply not an issue. In tens of thousands of photos I still have yet to see a problem with moire from my D810, nor in all the years have I ever read about a single problem with it ruining images on any forum. The higher resolution, the better moire is masked, so the D850 will do quite well there. Even if you do see moire, sometimes even moving the camera ever so slightly completely removes it for the next shot.

Also, an AA filter doesn't necessarily mean the moire is better controlled - there are examples of cameras with AA filters that are still worse than cameras without AA filters. Also most if not all medium format cameras, very often used for fashion, do not have AA filters.

The bottom line is it's generally not an issue for the overwhelming majority of users, and will be even less of an issue on the D850. If you are really worried though, your sole option is to try it out for yourself in the exact conditions you're worried about. I would rent one and shoot the fabrics you're worried about - no need to pay the model or assistant if you have access to the fabric for your tests. Looks like it's $112 a day which seems like not a lot if this is a major concern for you.

Sep 26, 2017 at 02:26 PM

Lance B
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D850 and moire?

I did get occasional moire on the D810 on some bird feathers from time to time, relatively easy to fix in post. However, due to smaller pixels if the D850, I haven't seen even a hint of it yet.

Sep 26, 2017 at 02:57 PM

sk66
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D850 and moire?

Moire can occur with any camera, even those with an AA filter. But there are many options for eliminating moire in camera if you recognize it early.
Change the pattern by changing the fabric.
Change the size of the pattern by zooming in.
Blur the pattern slightly by pushing the aperture into diffraction limiting (creating an AA filter type softening effect).
Similarly, a lens that is not tack sharp at a given aperture (i.e. wide open) will reduce the likelihood... and there are very few lenses that will resolve to the D850 level at any aperture.
Likewise, if the fabric is in motion and not 100% frozen moire is not likely to occur.
Or, assuming you keep your other cameras... switch bodies.

After moire has been recorded you can try to edit it out with various results, you can change the size of the pattern (effect) by changing the output/display size, or some combination of both.

Personally, I wouldn't let the chance of moire put me off of the D850...

Sep 26, 2017 at 02:59 PM

Lee Saxon
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D850 and moire?

What types of materials would be most prone to moire?

Sep 26, 2017 at 03:40 PM

plnelson
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D850 and moire?

nor in all the years have I ever read about a single problem with it ruining images on any forum.

Yet, I posted three links to such problems with the D810 that I found in a matter of seconds.

I think it depends on what kind of photography you do. I've never seen it in my wildlife work but I've seen it in a few (1/10?) fashion sh0ots, even though I shoot with cameras that have AA filters. And if you want to see a REALLY bad case of moire on a D800, here's a test video I did with my D800 of a street scene (make sure you set YouTube's playback resolution to HD) . . .

" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">

... One reason video on the D800 is worse than stills is they way it under-samples from its sensor when recording video, effectively lowering its resolution.

And yes, I know all the tricks to avoid it but most of them constrain my shooting or subject matter or work flow in some way, so I'd rather not have to fight against my tools. So my question is where will I likely be able to find tests of this on the web? Besides DPreview is there any place who does sufficiently detailed tests to pick up something like this?

Sep 26, 2017 at 04:10 PM

LMT1972
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D850 and moire?

Keep the D800 for studio work and use the D850 for everything else if it's that much of a concern.

Cheers
Leigh

Sep 26, 2017 at 05:41 PM

gdsf2
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D850 and moire?

plnelson wrote:
nor in all the years have I ever read about a single problem with it ruining images on any forum.

Yet, I posted three links to such problems with the D810 that I found in a matter of seconds.

I think it depends on what kind of photography you do. I've never seen it in my wildlife work but I've seen it in a few (1/10?) fashion sh0ots, even though I shoot with cameras that have AA filters. And if you want to see a REALLY bad case of moire on a D800, here's a test video I did with...Show more →

May I suggest you google and see what you find. I found nothing.

Sep 26, 2017 at 09:57 PM

RCicala
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D850 and moire?

Remember that as resolution increases, pixel size decreases, and the need for an OLPF to prevent more decreases along with it. Not saying you couldn't create it, but it would be a lot less likely than with a 24 Mpix camera.

Sep 27, 2017 at 10:05 AM

elkhornsun
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D850 and moire?

I have only had moire in a very few images and they were all taken with the D3. All involved repeating patterns, like a man's tie with stripes or a bridal veil. Even then the moire was evident in fewer than 10% of the images as this effect depends on the angle which is in turn affected by distance. I might get moire at 8 feet but not at 7 feet or 9 feet distance to the subject. The more "insurance" shots you take the less likely you are to have a must have image with moire.

I see the same moire effect in digitized movies and television shows so it is not limited to still cameras.

Sep 28, 2017 at 04:07 PM


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