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D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....
  
 
AnnJS
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


>>>
"None of the dynamic area AF modes would lock onto the terns flying against a plain blue sky. >>>

Dynamic AF depends on the camera operator being able to keep their primary focusing point on the target.

Dynamic AF does NOT track (and it never has). Group does not "track' either but simply gives you a larger primary focus point in effect,

If you want the CAMERA to do the tracking for you, you need to choose either full AF or "3d Tracking AF".



Sep 25, 2017 at 05:34 PM
elkhornsun
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


I am going by the ability with AF-C for the camera to focus on a bird moving across the frame and the only mode that was effective with the terns was Group AF. That was my finding and it should be understood that focusing on a person that is moving around in the frame provides a much much bigger target than a bird and so more autofocus sensors come into play. Nothing surprising to me about that.

Canon shooters have long mentioned disappointment with the 5DS R autofocus performance and that camera does not compare favorably in that regard to the 1D X camera. I suspect that with the much smaller photosites that contrast differences needed for autofocus are more difficult to detect and that is going to impact autofocus performance.

Overall the performance of the 45MP D850 is a big improvement over the 36MP D810 and I can see using it in situations where I would not even take the D810 out of the bag. I have never expected one camera to do it all and perform well in every area as compared to other cameras. The D5 and D500 have their strengths as does the D850 and I have room in my camera bag and my budget to not need to settle for one camera.

Since the D3 and D300 cameras were introduced I have found it advantageous to shoot with a combination of FX and DX cameras and I do not see that changing with the D850 and for me this is of no consequence. The D850 and the D500 work very well together.



Sep 25, 2017 at 08:33 PM
Frode
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....




CanadaMark wrote:
I think maybe we're over-analyzing it (probably more so than Nikon's PR folks did haha), but this is what Nikon says:

"The D850 uses the same field-proven ultra-accurate AF system as the flagship D5. With 153 focus points, 99 cross-type sensors and a dedicated AF processor, the D850 delivers all of its 45.7 MP performance with NIKKOR lenses. Shoot in low light to -4 EV. Capturing the most elusive subjects will feel like second nature with the D850."

The AF "system" is of course all parts in the AF chain, otherwise they would have to mention specific parts. Nikon says the AF
...Show more

Believe what you want ;-).



Sep 25, 2017 at 09:05 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


Frode wrote:
Believe what you want ;-).


For now, I believe what I have seen with my own eyes It also seems to match the experience of other reputable individuals, which helps the confidence level of my observations. Furthermore, I have not seen any real evidence of the contrary, so it's looking good.



Sep 25, 2017 at 09:08 PM
designdog
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


The D850 is a ultra high resolution camera with the “technology” of the D5 AF and without built in image stabilization. In my view it requires a commitment to the best lenses (or lenses with stabilization) and/or to be shot on a tripod. Great for stabilized landscapes. At that high resolution, in focus images for, say, birds in flight are going to be dicey.

I gave up on my D810 because many of my hand held shots (with top lenses) were not sharp, and I was tired of pixel peeping.

I think many will be disappointed with the D850 if they are honest with themselves. Nikon should have offered a 20-26mp full frame camera with the build and AF of the D850...



Sep 25, 2017 at 11:17 PM
henry albert
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


elkhornsun wrote:
I am going by the ability with AF-C for the camera to focus on a bird moving across the frame and the only mode that was effective with the terns was Group AF. That was my finding and it should be understood that focusing on a person that is moving around in the frame provides a much much bigger target than a bird and so more autofocus sensors come into play. Nothing surprising to me about that.

Canon shooters have long mentioned disappointment with the 5DS R autofocus performance and that camera does not compare favorably in that regard to the
...Show more

Show us some images to demonstrate what you mean. You have a lot of opinions and it wouldn't hurt to back them up with evidence.



Sep 26, 2017 at 01:41 AM
rick2906
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


designdog wrote:
The D850 is a ultra high resolution camera with the “technology” of the D5 AF and without built in image stabilization. In my view it requires a commitment to the best lenses (or lenses with stabilization) and/or to be shot on a tripod. Great for stabilized landscapes. At that high resolution, in focus images for, say, birds in flight are going to be dicey.

I gave up on my D810 because many of my hand held shots (with top lenses) were not sharp, and I was tired of pixel peeping.

I think many will be disappointed with the D850 if they are
...Show more

Like a D5



Sep 26, 2017 at 01:44 AM
Tony Bonanno
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


Steve Perry wrote:
Finally, I'm not sure shooting everything with 3D is the right course of action here either. 3D does tax the AF system far more than dynamic, single point or even Group AF. It also tends to be a bIt more unpredictable IMO. So, I may try to do a test with one of those other modes and see if the D5 is noticeably better.


Totally agree about 3D although I do use it a lot. I've done a couple of test comparisons regarding the AF tracking between my D5 and D850. I think the D850 is pretty close to the D5 as far as keepers. Generally I shoot larger subjects though (grand prix jumping, running horses, etc), I do think the D5 probably has a "slight" edge. But my keeper rate for the 850 was much better than depicted in the video. The video didn't state which AF settings were used in both cameras. Were they the same ? There are several variables that can come into play.




Edited on Sep 26, 2017 at 02:57 AM · View previous versions



Sep 26, 2017 at 02:38 AM
CritterRacing
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


i completely disagree. . im finding it hard to have an out of focus shot with my d850. i havent even used a tripod yet and my keepers are way higher then my d810 and close to my d500. this new shutter is nothing like the d810's and i believe it has something to do with its performance.




designdog wrote:
The D850 is a ultra high resolution camera with the “technology” of the D5 AF and without built in image stabilization. In my view it requires a commitment to the best lenses (or lenses with stabilization) and/or to be shot on a tripod. Great for stabilized landscapes. At that high resolution, in focus images for, say, birds in flight are going to be dicey.

I gave up on my D810 because many of my hand held shots (with top lenses) were not sharp, and I was tired of pixel peeping.

I think many will be disappointed with the D850 if they are
...Show more




Sep 26, 2017 at 02:52 AM
Frode
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....




CanadaMark wrote:
For now, I believe what I have seen with my own eyes It also seems to match the experience of other reputable individuals, which helps the confidence level of my observations. Furthermore, I have not seen any real evidence of the contrary, so it's looking good.


Good for you :-).



Sep 26, 2017 at 05:00 AM
 

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designdog
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


CritterRacing wrote:
i completely disagree. . im finding it hard to have an out of focus shot with my d850. i havent even used a tripod yet and my keepers are way higher then my d810 and close to my d500. this new shutter is nothing like the d810's and i believe it has something to do with its performance.


That is good to know. Are you shooting with image stabilized lenses?

My style of photography is more composed than action; I shot the D810 almost totally with single focus mode. Lenses include the Nikon trinity (second generation) 28 1.4e, 50 1.4G, 84 1.4g, 105 1.4e the Sigma 35 and 50 Arts, and the Zeiss 35/2, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.4, 100/2 and 135/2. So, good lenses.

I found that with lenses over 50mm, with close pixel peeping, my images were not perfectly in focus. I don't think the shutter had anything to do with it, nor did my shooting technique. I was so frustrated that I purposely did two things: 1. did pretty much the same tour with a tripod; 2. did the same thing with my Df. Problem solved.

So I sold the D810 and got a D5 (the dynamic range issue is over blown.) My keeper rate is now 100%, unless I really goof up.

I recall all of the concern about this when the D800 first came out. I upgraded my lenses, refined my technique, and, like I am afraid many did, lowered my expectations.Or maybe I just got used to it. The overall effect of all of those pixels is so overwhelming that we can live with slightly out of focus images.

Going back to my original comment, for tripod based studio or landscape photographers this is a wonderful camera. I just think there is a threshold, 20-26MP, where, for all around use, the digital camera excels. This does not even bring into the discussion the impact of pixel pitch on overall image quality: my D3s makes more appealing images than the D810 did.

I realize that I am just one person standing in the wave of the effusion over the D850. But that is my perspective, from my experience. What works for you works for you...



Sep 26, 2017 at 01:51 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


designdog wrote:
So I sold the D810 and got a D5 (the dynamic range issue is over blown.) My keeper rate is now 100%, unless I really goof up.


Yes, this is likely because the AF system of the D5 is much better than the one in the D810. It's not about the pixel count as such though the higher pixel count makes it easier to detect slight focus errors. Reducing the pixel count doesn't improve image quality, but I suppose if the images are not in focus it can be annoying to have those superfluous pixels taking up space. But we're past that for the most part, it seems, with the D850. It's possible that in highly demanding action situations the D850 might not focus as well as the D5 (as in the video) but most user reports are very favourable regarding its AF.



Sep 26, 2017 at 02:22 PM
Steve Perry
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


UPDATE...

OK, so I was thinking about this thread and decided that maybe I needed to try my D850 with some tougher targets. I found some terns diving at an overflow culvert where the fish that were getting stirred up. I wasn't doing actual dive shots this time (I was too high up), but I was getting shots as they darted around for position.

Anyhow...

I was shooting away and started to notice that when the lens was focused more towards the background and I tried to switch to a nearer subject that the camera would often struggle to get a lock. I could see the very OOF bird in the viewfinder, had the AF area over it (D25 in this case), but sometimes I just couldn't get the camera to focus on the bird. (Group did a bit better, but wasn't perfect either.)

I had my D5 with me so I decided to see if it seemed any better. It too would struggle with this scenario from time to time BUT it really did seem to do better than the D850 when it came to going from far birds to near birds (settings, including A3, all the same). I'm planning some better, more controlled tests later on to verify.

That said, keep in mind these are small(ish) birds at close range moving erratically as they zoomed from one position to another (and around each other) shot with with a 600mm lens. Also, this is just a seat-of-the-pants observation. It could be that maybe they were in an easier position / moving slower when I started using the D5 or something. Admittedly, erratic little birds are not the best choice for a test - but I did want to mention my experience.

Also, I think it's important to note that the biggest problem was getting that initial lock when the bird was grossly OOF (too close). Both cameras AF performance still seemed about the same once I locked on or when focus was reasonably close to the distance the bird was at the moment.

In addition - and this is the important part - I have WAY too many keepers of razor sharp terns in flight from my D850. So, while the D850 may (and I stress "may") not be quite as solid in the AF dept. as the D5, it's probably close enough not to care. As I mentioned before, with the action I've done up to this point (herons, gulls, and terns, and even a running wild horse), it absolutely seemed on par with the D5. I think it may only be getting that initial lock with very fast / tricky action that it may be slower than the D5.



Sep 27, 2017 at 12:45 AM
designdog
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


The discussion about image quality prompted me to take a few test shots with my D3s (not the D5) this morning. As I mentioned earlier, there is something about the images from this camera that seem special to me. There point is that image quality, while always requiring to be in focus, is more than MP count and resolution. More than low iso dynamic range as represented by test shots taken of static objects on a tripod.

I gravitated to Zeiss MF lenses partly due to the requirements from my D800/D810, and because of the "Zeiss 3D" micro contrast praises. I found myself more engaged in pixel peeping (and noting how many slightly out of focus shots I was getting) than viewing the image in artistic perspective. The technology pointed that way.

Last summer I became interested in film photography, and used these same lenses with Nikon film bodies, including the F6 which I still own. This most certainly drove me away from pixel peeping! Suddenly the D810 images started looking dry and lifeless. Technically interesting, but lacking color, warmth, tone.

This D3s image illustrates this. (With the Nikon 58mm 1.4G) I hope it come across here - on my iMac the depth of the elements beats anything I shot with the D810...







Sep 27, 2017 at 02:00 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


designdog wrote:
Last summer I became interested in film photography, and used these same lenses with Nikon film bodies, including the F6 which I still own. This most certainly drove me away from pixel peeping! Suddenly the D810 images started looking dry and lifeless. Technically interesting, but lacking color, warmth, tone.

This D3s image illustrates this. (With the Nikon 58mm 1.4G) I hope it come across here - on my iMac the depth of the elements beats anything I shot with the D810...


What you're describing is entirely the differences in RAW profiles, and you can make a profile for the D810 to make it look however you like, the only difference is the D810 is capturing a lot more data and you will have far more leeway in doing so with the D810 than the D3s.



Sep 27, 2017 at 02:54 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


designdog wrote:
The discussion about image quality prompted me to take a few test shots with my D3s (not the D5) this morning. As I mentioned earlier, there is something about the images from this camera that seem special to me. There point is that image quality, while always requiring to be in focus, is more than MP count and resolution. More than low iso dynamic range as represented by test shots taken of static objects on a tripod.

I gravitated to Zeiss MF lenses partly due to the requirements from my D800/D810, and because of the "Zeiss 3D" micro contrast praises. I
...Show more

The only objective way to demonstrate to others what you believe you're seeing is to shoot the same scene with the same lens and exposures with both the D3s and D810 and then provide the raws.



Sep 27, 2017 at 03:33 PM
henry albert
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


designdog wrote:
---

I gravitated to Zeiss MF lenses partly due to the requirements from my D800/D810, and because of the "Zeiss 3D" micro contrast praises. I found myself more engaged in pixel peeping (and noting how many slightly out of focus shots I was getting) than viewing the image in artistic perspective. The technology pointed that way.


Won't speak for anyone else, but nothing destroys a person's credibility faster with me than the embrace of "Zeiss 3D".



Sep 27, 2017 at 03:41 PM
Stoffer
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


Steve Perry wrote:
UPDATE...

OK, so I was thinking about this thread and decided that maybe I needed to try my D850 with some tougher targets. I found some terns diving at an overflow culvert where the fish that were getting stirred up. I wasn't doing actual dive shots this time (I was too high up), but I was getting shots as they darted around for position.

Anyhow...

I was shooting away and started to notice that when the lens was focused more towards the background and I tried to switch to a nearer subject that the camera would often struggle to get a
...Show more

Interesting, thanks for sharing Steve. One question comes to mind: Did you use the grip and D5 battery on the D850? The bigger battery has more power to drive the AF motor on the big lenses faster, that is at least what Canon has stated about faster AF from their 1D series. Could make a difference in how fast the AF can acquire lock simply based on how fast the AF motor in the lens can accelerate with the power on hand.

I need more power, Scotty!



Sep 27, 2017 at 05:56 PM
henry albert
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


Stoffer wrote:
I need more power, Scotty!


She canna take much more, Cap'n!




Sep 27, 2017 at 06:28 PM
Steve Perry
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · D850 vs D5 AF Comparison....


Stoffer wrote:
Interesting, thanks for sharing Steve. One question comes to mind: Did you use the grip and D5 battery on the D850? The bigger battery has more power to drive the AF motor on the big lenses faster, that is at least what Canon has stated about faster AF from their 1D series. Could make a difference in how fast the AF can acquire lock simply based on how fast the AF motor in the lens can accelerate with the power on hand.

I need more power, Scotty!


Sadly, I have yet to see a grip. However, I'm not entirely sure what the camera does with the extra power - if it's just for the mirror / shutter or if it's a boost to the AF motor as well. I would think the AF motors would have a set voltage / amperage, but I don't know. Also, at 9FPS the AF system has less time to "see" the target between shots, so I'm not sure if the extra 2 FPS would help or hurt. I'd love to get one of the grips to test though! I'm on some pre-order lists, some alerts, but no one seems to have the grip in the US. Heck, I even contacted NPS about it with no response...



Sep 27, 2017 at 06:33 PM
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