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Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs...
  
 
Herb
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


What are the advantages or disadvantages of the Fuji GFX medium format camera as compared to the Canon 5Ds/r or the new one at 60mp. With new adapter for Canon lens to the Fuji body this has caused me to ask the question.

Also for the Sony camera with Canon lens users, are there any comments that can be made relative to loss of f-stop or anything else that might give insight into what adapters do with a mixed body camera setup.

Thank you in advance.....



Sep 22, 2017 at 07:44 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Herb wrote:
What are the advantages or disadvantages of the Fuji GFX medium format camera as compared to the Canon 5Ds/r or the new one at 60mp. With new adapter for Canon lens to the Fuji body this has caused me to ask the question.


The perceived advantages of the GFX include:

1. A larger sensor area which has the potential to provide slightly greater system resolution.

2. Potential for somewhat increased dynamic range.

3. Minimizes body size/weight "cost" compared to full frame DSLRs by using mirrorless design.

One cannot argue that these things are not true. However, one can discuss the magnitude and significance of the difference and consider so things that seem like downsides for at least some users.

- - -

The actual difference in sensor size is smaller than that between full frame and cropped sensor formats. It is also a bit hard to quantify. Since the FF uses a 3:2 aspect ratio and miniMF uses a 4:3 aspect ratio, photographers who prefer one or the other of these may regard the size difference from different perspectives. For example, if you shoot FF and prefer the 4:3 ratio, you are currently sacrificing pixels that you'll get to keep with miniMF — giving more favor to miinMF. If you shoot FF and prefer its 3:2 ratio you will end up cropping your 4:3 miniMF image and the difference between the two formats decreases. (I posted a very short — and imperfect — graph and explanation that illustrates some of this: https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2017/01/27/comparing-33-x-44mm-minimf-and-24-x-26mm-full-frame-sensors.)

Here is the graph without the explanation. Note that it contains errors, as I acknowledge in the article:







The potential for greater dynamic range comes from two factors. The GFX uses the excellent Sony sensors, and the larger area of the sensor allows individual photo sites to be slightly larger, supporting greater dynamic range. The question for individual photographers to resolve is how important this is to their photography.

- - -

The decrease in body weight and size must be viewed in the context of the size and weight of a full system. On one hand, a photographer anticipating the use of the GFX with a single prime that is the lightest and smallest available will feel that the comparison is quite favorable. On the other hand, a photographer who relies on a variety of lenses including zooms will find that the advantage over FF diminishes or is reversed.

- - -

There are other things to consider, too.

While it cannot be argued that the larger sensor has better capabilities in several ways, the significance of that "better-ness" is subject to debate. Current 51MP full frame sensors are capable of producing truly excellent image quality and prints of very large size can be made from files captured using them. Unless you actually see some problems in your 51MP files, the odds are that the improvements are going be marginal or invisible in most cases.

(A friend works with the 50+MP Pentax 645z, and I work with the 50+MP 5DsR. We have discussed doing some careful comparable photographs with the two systems and then doing a kind of blind test where we ask knowledgable photographer observers to compare crops from large prints made with both systems. I'll share the results when this happens.)

Photographers who rely on a range of lenses — such as the Canon L zooms — for their work are going to find it hard or even impossible to replace the functionality of those lenses. Let's say you are a landscape photographer who relies (as I do) on the 16-35mm f/4L IS, the 24-70mm f/2.8L, the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, and the 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II. You cannot replicate the capabilities of those lenses with the GFX at this point.

Additionally, even if you could do so, the lens package would be larger.

I am actually very intrigued by the GFX and other cameras that use the miniMF 33 x 44 sensors. I've considered them, only to decide that — for my purposes and at the present time — the advantages don't justify the downsides or the cost.

YMMV.

Dan



Sep 22, 2017 at 08:15 PM
mb126
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


One source of potential, in my view, of the Fuji system is that tests show that certain very good 35mm lenses can cover the image circle effectively and into the corners at useful apertures.

Thus, the adaptability which one can do this with this system but not others (e.g. 645D/Z) potentially mitigates the issue of glass.

One other often-overlooked point is the change in aspect ratio between FF and Mini-MF. If you often shoot at 4x3 or 5x4 then the sensor size increase becomes more significant versus if you typically shoot at 3x2.

So if you are a FF shooter with lots of good 35mm glass that might be adaptable to the Mini-MF sensor then all the sudden it is starting to look a lot more palatable than starting from scratch with an entire independent MF system.



Sep 22, 2017 at 09:15 PM
rodmcwha
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Don't forget that the pixels will be larger, thus giving better low light IQ.


Sep 22, 2017 at 09:44 PM
SergeyT
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


This is what GFX owners are challenged with today http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1496482?b=2
And to the resolution and ISO perf here is the tool : https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM



Sep 22, 2017 at 11:30 PM
SergeyT
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


>> Don't forget that the pixels will be larger, thus giving better low light IQ.
Meaning Canon 1Ds had the best low light IQ ?



Sep 22, 2017 at 11:31 PM
Herb
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


gdanmitchell wrote:
The perceived advantages of the GFX include:

1. A larger sensor area which has the potential to provide slightly greater system resolution.

2. Potential for somewhat increased dynamic range.

3. Minimizes body size/weight "cost" compared to full frame DSLRs by using mirrorless design.

One cannot argue that these things are not true. However, one can discuss the magnitude and significance of the difference and consider so things that seem like downsides for at least some users.

- - -

The actual difference in sensor size is smaller than that between full frame and cropped sensor formats. It is also a bit hard to quantify.
...Show more

A friend works with the 50+MP Pentax 645z, and I work with the 50+MP 5DsR. We have discussed doing some careful comparable photographs with the two systems and then doing a kind of blind test where we ask knowledgable photographer observers to compare crops from large prints made with both systems. I'll share the results when this happens.I look forward to this.




Photographers who rely on a range of lenses — such as the Canon L zooms — for their work are going to find it hard or even impossible to replace the functionality of those lenses. Let's say you are a landscape photographer who relies (as I do) on the 16-35mm f/4L IS, the 24-70mm f/2.8L, the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, and the 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II. What about the new adapter that adapts Canon lens to the GFX? Does that change your comment?



Sep 23, 2017 at 03:15 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Honestly, if I were to be making this comparison, I'd be doing it with the D850: it loses essentially nothing to the Fuji camera, while gaining tremendously in terms of speed and flexibility.


[as Dan helpfully mentioned in detail above, the difference in sensor size is very small; the only occasion where the Fuji would be more effective would be in adapting fast 135-format lenses that happen to cover the larger image circle without degradation to gain some near imperceptible shrink in depth of field- and if a 105/1.4E, 135/1.8 Art, or 200/2 VR isn't shallow enough for you...]



Sep 23, 2017 at 03:25 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Herb wrote:
What about the new adapter that adapts Canon lens to the GFX? Does that change your comment?


No, it does not.

It only works fully with a very small subset of Canon lenses. To the best of my knowledge, if I were to use the four Canon L zooms that I rely on with a GFX using the adapter, their image circles would not be sufficiently large to avoid image issues. (A few people seem to feel that they could just crop bit, but that negates the potential advantage of the large sensor and lowers the number of MP.)

I do not have the definitive list of which Canon lenses will work, but I believe it includes some of the tilt/shift lenses — because of their TS functionality they have to cover an image circle larger than the 24 x 36mm full frame sensor. There might be one or two other primes, but I think that's it.

I believe I have read that a few non-Canon third-party primes might work, too.

Also, while pleading less than authoritative knowledge on this topic, I don't believe the adapters provide full automatic functionality. One may, but the companies materials point out that, for example, autofocus will be a lot slower.

I also have not looked into the potential of adapting other MF lenses to the GFX, but I'll bet it can be done. Again, though, I think you'll end up working pretty much in manual mode. (I used one Pentax 80-160mm MF zoom with the Mirex TS adapter on my 5DsR occasionally. I lose automatic focus and automatic aperture control.)

There is a thread here on FM that goes into some detail with the experiences of some who have adapted lenses to the GFX. Try this as a starting point: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1496482?b=2

As I've written before, I'm intrigued by the miniMF bodies for a number of reasons, and it is possible that at some point I may decide that I want one. But right now, for my purposes, the downsides outweigh the positives.

Positives: marginally better image quality potential from a slightly larger sensor. (See my chart for how to regard the crop factor comparison — which is less than the difference than between FF and 1.5x and 1.6x cropped sensor cameras. The biggest crop factor difference is less than 1.4x — for photographers like me who currently crop FF images to 4:3 aspect ratio. The smallest crop factor differences is only about 1.2x, for photographers who like the 3:2 aspect ration and might crop the GFX to get it.)

Negatives: Cost. Few situations in which the image quality difference would likely be visible, even in large prints. The type and range of lenses I prefer to use are unavailable. In general, comparable lenses are larger and heavier.

I have a hunch that one reason Fujifilm doesn't make a full frame camera is that they would rather maintain the more significant crop factor difference between 33mm x 44mm and there 1.5x crop factor x-trans cameras. A more positive way of looking at this would be to think that they figured that, compared to x-trans,the difference with the GFX would be more significant. Plus, Fujifilm likes to zig where competitors zag, and they may have a longer term strategy for building out the GFX line and its lenses. Time will tell.

That's me. YMMV.

Dan



Sep 23, 2017 at 04:31 AM
therealthings
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


With all the theories from people that don't own both camera's i would suggest going over to DPR and look for Rick Knepper. He owns the 645z / GFX and 5DsR and compared them side by side.

Also keep in mind that even though there is a converter (a dutch company developed it) for canon EF mount, you will need lenses with a larger diameter to cover the entire sensor e.g. Canon's TS-E lenses. Otherwise you will clip corners.



Sep 23, 2017 at 06:32 AM
 

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Kcct82
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


I see people comparing resolution, dynamica range, and high ISO a lot. What I would really like to know is the difference in color. I can't really find comparisions in this regard. From the little I have seen online, it seems MF is able to differentiate subtle color shifts better. For example, the face of a person has more noticable greens, pinks, yellows, browns, and the color of the light source. In comparison, full frame DSLR's skin tones just look more or less like orange monochrome. I'd like to hear more from people with experiences to both type of sensors.


Sep 23, 2017 at 09:00 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Kcct82 wrote:
I see people comparing resolution, dynamica range, and high ISO a lot. What I would really like to know is the difference in color. I can't really find comparisions in this regard. From the little I have seen online, it seems MF is able to differentiate subtle color shifts better. For example, the face of a person has more noticable greens, pinks, yellows, browns, and the color of the light source. In comparison, full frame DSLR's skin tones just look more or less like orange monochrome. I'd like to hear more from people with experiences to both type of sensors.
...Show more

While there is probably some truth in this, and I personally believe there is, good luck trying to get real numbers for objective comparisons. DxO does some testing here, but they don't necessarily get all of the high-end stuff like the 100MP digital backs. Also, you have to put significant faith in DxO...



Sep 23, 2017 at 09:28 AM
Daniel Smith
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Biggest downer is the lack of big, fast glass for sports/wildlife/fashion and the like.

After that it comes down to which body feels better to you as you use it.(for me)



Sep 23, 2017 at 12:11 PM
Herb
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


After reading everything above I come away not seeing any real advantage, well at least for me. I was looking for something that would compliment my Canon glass, I have a bunch, and there just doesn't seem to be any upside at this point.


Sep 23, 2017 at 01:00 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Two aspects of the different sensor sizes that I haven't seen mentioned are;

(i) for the same framing (based on image width), from the same distance, the MF camera uses a longer focal length lens (e.g. 105mm vs. 85mm), resulting in shallower DOF at the same aperture, and

(ii) for the same size print or monitor display, the original MF image is magnified less than the FF DSLR image (for 12" wide; x6.9 vs. x8.5).

This last factor, combined with the larger pixel size for the MF camera, contributes towards cleaner images, and (at relatively wide apertures) better subject separation.

Also, since magnification is lower for a common display size, the MF camera can use a smaller aperture without increasing the apparent diffraction effects (because of lower mag), and so the shallower DOF is not a significant constraint if you want deep DOF.



Sep 23, 2017 at 01:23 PM
milkod2001
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Fuji GFX is not true medium format camera, more like oversized FX. Look into galleries taken with this camera. It seems to have slightly better performance at high ISO but other than that there is almost no difference what can Fuji GFX and Canon 5DR or Nikon D810/D850 cannot do.




Sep 23, 2017 at 04:02 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


jcolwell wrote:
Two aspects of the different sensor sizes that I haven't seen mentioned are;

(i) for the same framing (based on image width), from the same distance, the MF camera uses a longer focal length lens (e.g. 105mm vs. 85mm), resulting in shallower DOF at the same aperture, and

(ii) for the same size print or monitor display, the original MF image is magnified less than the FF DSLR image (for 12" wide; x6.9 vs. x8.5).

This last factor, combined with the larger pixel size for the MF camera, contributes towards cleaner images, and (at relatively wide apertures) better subject separation.

Also, since
...Show more

These things fall into the area I was thinking of when I wrote:

One cannot argue that these things are not true. However, one can discuss the magnitude and significance of the difference and consider so things that seem like downsides for at least some users.

It is very important to keep in mind just how small the actual size difference is between miniMF and full frame sensors. While we are used to crop factors of 1.5x and 1.6x when comparing cameras from DSLR manufacturers (and their mirrorless counterparts), depending on how you'll use the miniMF body the crop factor differential between full frame and mini MF lies somewhere between a bit more than 1.2x and a bit less than 1.4x. (See the chart I posted earlier for explanation.)

So, yes, the there is a difference in DOF. But it will be extremely small — smaller than that between full frame and crop. It will not be anywhere close to the difference between, say, 35mm (FF) and old school MF formats like 645, 6x7, and the like.

The magnification issue is a bit complex. It is real, but again seems likely to be smaller than we might hope when we say "medium format." (This is one of the reasons that I use the term "miniMF" — it reminds us that this is not what we used to think of when we said "medium format.")

First of all, the pixel resolution of, for example, the Fujifilm GFX and the Canon 5DsR is essentially the same, though with different aspect ratios. So there is no pixel resolution advantage. There is, potentially, a "system resolution" advantage if a) we can identify "softness" in the FF system images attributable to lenses, and b) the resolution of lenses for the miniMF system is at least equal to that of the FF lenses.

That leads to a few important questions:

1. Is there softness attributable to lens resolution in images made with the best FF lenses on high resolution FF sensors?

2. If so, what is the magnitude of the difference between these systems and the miniMF systems?

3. Will we see this difference in prints that we make?

Again, logically the larger sensor system has the potential to produce greater system resolution. But if we do blind tests on prints from the two systems, will our test subjects actually see a difference? And, if so, at what print sizes?

(Comparisons done in this manner by photographers in my circle — using MF systems with larger dimensions and higher resolution than the Fujifilm GFX — suggest that the differences are minimal if visible at all at 30" x 40".0

One other important thing. We sometimes lose track of just how good the image quality can be with current high resolution full frame sensors. There isn't a whole lot of room for significant improvement on that standard when going only as far as 33mm x 44mm.

In the end, as I've said, I'm interested in these systems and it isn't impossible that I might eventually have one, especially if sensor resolution exceeds rather than equalling that of FF systems.

Dan



Sep 23, 2017 at 04:40 PM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Herb wrote:
After reading everything above I come away not seeing any real advantage, well at least for me. I was looking for something that would compliment my Canon glass, I have a bunch, and there just doesn't seem to be any upside at this point.

I agree with your assessment. You have wonderful cameras and wonderful lenses that should allow you to do just about anything you want including printing big. I think you'd have to step up to the true medium format 100mp cameras to see any appreciable change.

I think the GF would be a great camera for someone who is in the Fuji-X ethos and had the money and the need for a bigger sensor. I could see this being a nice complement to the X-T2. It made me think of my days shooting weddings on film - I'd use a 6x4.5 for candids and shoot the formals with a 6x7.

From what I've read, it's slow. It might be fine for product photography, landscape and carefully composed portraits, but I think you'd be frustrated after using your Canons. I'd be worried about Canon lens image circles, even with lenses that supposedly can cover the sensor. The tilt lenses might be OK, but I doubt you'd be able to shift much, if any.



Sep 23, 2017 at 04:53 PM
molson
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Daniel Smith wrote:
Biggest downer is the lack of big, fast glass for sports/wildlife/fashion and the like.



Why on earth would anyone want to use a medium-format camera to photograph sports? Hoping to impress the soccer moms?



Sep 23, 2017 at 05:05 PM
molson
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Help me understand the advantages of the Fuji GFX 50mp vs. Canon 50mp cameras


Herb wrote:
What are the advantages or disadvantages of the Fuji GFX medium format camera as compared to the Canon 5Ds/r or the new one at 60mp. With new adapter for Canon lens to the Fuji body this has caused me to ask the question.

Also for the Sony camera with Canon lens users, are there any comments that can be made relative to loss of f-stop or anything else that might give insight into what adapters do with a mixed body camera setup.

Thank you in advance.....


For me, the GFX 50S is very nice upgrade for what I enjoy most, which is landscape photography. Compared to the 5DsR, the advantages I see are:

  1. Dynamic Range - the GFX has four times the DR of the 5DsR at ISO 100 (and nearly twice as much as the Nikon D850)
  2. Medium Format lens perspective - you get a different look which is hard to explain if you have't used MF
  3. Better LCD screen with articulation in two axes
  4. Useable EVF - hard to go back to a DSLR after using a camera with a good EVF (and I found Sony's EVF's to be too crappy for critical use)
  5. Lenses - not a big selection yet, but I've always found Fuji glass to be suprerb




Sep 23, 2017 at 05:21 PM
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