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Archive 2017 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?

  
 
lisy78
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


Am i reading the spec sheet wrong or is the VIEWFINDER int he X-E3 not only not an improvement compared to the X-E2s but an actual step down?

That would be an incredible disappointment. I've been waiting for the X-E3 for a long time... hoping for basically an X-E2 with the new sensor, with Acros with Grain and with better AF.

Fuji for some reason decided to drop the size which was already minimalistic enough, lose the flash (which came in handy) ... I could possibly live with this... but if the Viewfinder is not at least the same as the X-E2 then that's a dealbreaker.

Thoughts?

How is everyone else interpreting the specs?

It's really too bad because the bluetooth sounds brilliant... it's about the only thing that would have me now waiting even longer for an X-T3



Sep 20, 2017 at 04:08 PM
leighton w
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


From DPR.







Sep 20, 2017 at 04:17 PM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


XE2S Viewfinder:
Viewfinder
0.5-in., approx. 2.360K-dot OLED color viewfinder
Coverage of viewing area vs. capturing area : approx. 100%
Eye point : approx. 23mm (from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece)
Diopter adjustment : -4m-1 to +2m-1
Magnification : 0.62x with 50mm lens (35mm format equivalent) at infinity and diopter set to - 1.0m-1
Diagonal angle of view : approx. 30° (Horizontal angle of view : approx. 25°)
Built-in eye sensor

XE3 Viewfinder:
0.39-in., Approx. 2,360K-dot OLED color viewfinder, Coverage of viewing area vs. capturing area : Approx. 100%
Eye point : Approx. 17.5mm [ from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece], Diopter adjustment : -4m - +2m-1[dpt]
Magnification : 0.62x with 50mm lens[35mm format equivalent] at infinity and diopter set to -1m-1.
Diagonal angle of view : Approx. 30°[ Horizontal angle of view : Approx. 25°] Built-in eye sensor
Those specs are from the Fuji web site.

Here's a summary:
.039 vs .5
Eyepoint 17.5mm vs 23mm
Magnification: .62 vs .62

So, what does this mean? What I'm reading is you have to get your eye closer to the viewfinder. If you do, will the viewfinder image look about the same size?

I never shoot with glasses. If what I think that means is true, it won't affect me, but will affect eyeglass wearers. No one in the fanboy reviews has mentioned the viewfinder. I did notice a lot of the new videos show them shooting from the LCD.

BTW, the specs for the XE3 viewfinder is the same as for the XT20. If you've shot with the XT20, you should have an idea.

Bottom line, it's not a deal breaker for me, though I understand the concern.



Sep 20, 2017 at 04:51 PM
millsart
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


I don't know if there is one universal "most important" feature on the camera, though obviously an individual user such as the OP can have his or her "must have" feature list, but lets not feel that our own subjective needs represent every single user.

I've read post from plenty of folks who care far more about having a touch screen than they do an EVF and Fuji may have done right by them.

Other could care less about an EVF or a touch screen, but instead felt it needed a tilting LCD screen, and even if it had a great EVF they still might see it as a no buy.






Sep 20, 2017 at 05:12 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


*Yikes! I left out a word in the original version of this post that reversed the intent of what I meant to write. See the asterisked text below for my correction in all caps!

dmacmillan wrote:
XE2S Viewfinder:
Viewfinder
0.5-in., approx. 2.360K-dot OLED color viewfinder
Coverage of viewing area vs. capturing area : approx. 100%
Eye point : approx. 23mm (from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece)
Diopter adjustment : -4m-1 to +2m-1
Magnification : 0.62x with 50mm lens (35mm format equivalent) at infinity and diopter set to - 1.0m-1
Diagonal angle of view : approx. 30° (Horizontal angle of view : approx. 25°)
Built-in eye sensor

XE3 Viewfinder:
0.39-in., Approx. 2,360K-dot OLED color viewfinder, Coverage of viewing area vs. capturing area : Approx. 100%
Eye point : Approx. 17.5mm [ from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece], Diopter adjustment : -4m - +2m-1[dpt]
Magnification :
...Show more

I think it means that a) the physical screen inside the camera has smaller dimensions and b) your eye will be closer to the viewfinder so you'll probably see an image that is about the same size.

The smaller screen itself should NOT* be a problem if it has similar or better quality and the same number of pixels. In fact, using a smaller internal display is probably partly to keep the camera size small. The shorter eye point (and perhaps greater magnification of the monitor) likely compensates.

I shoot with the XPro2 with glasses. It works fine.

I found a chart with eye points for several older Fujifilm cameras:

X-Pro1 - 14mm
X100T - 15mm
X-Pro2 - 16mm
X-T10 - 17.5mm
X-T1 - 23mm
X-E2 - 23mm

Edited on Sep 21, 2017 at 12:21 AM · View previous versions



Sep 20, 2017 at 05:25 PM
lisy78
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


Sorry, I wrote most important feature, I meant most important UI feature.

Ok, so from what I'm reading the X-E2 and X-E3 both have 0.62x magnification and that's the critical element when it comes to shooting without eyeglasses... no matter the physical size of the screen or other parameters two viewfinders with 0.62x magnification appear to be the same to the user who puts their eye up to the eyepiece

The eyepoint might affect people (like me) who need glasses to shoot (or in my case, to shoot with my right eye... I can diopter adjust for my left eye but there isn't a diopter adjustment that gives me a clear image in my uncorrected right eye).

As I don't have access to an X-T20 I guess what I can try to do is look throgh my X-E2 viewfinder after putting a 5mm spacer on the eyepiece, and see how things look.

I'm wondering if what I wrote above about the physical size of the screen being meaningless WRT perceived viewfinder size maintains true when the eye is backed away from the eyecup. I don't know how the magnification works so I don't know if a smaller screen that looks the same size when viewed from distance X will then look the same when looked at from distance X+5mm, 10mm, 15mm etc.

Thanks for the responses, I'm (slightly) less concerned. really puzzled by their choice to shrink the camera down and make these compromises though... flash especially if this turns out to be less of an issue than I think



Sep 20, 2017 at 07:47 PM
George Orwell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


lisy78 wrote:
Am i reading the spec sheet wrong or is the VIEWFINDER int he X-E3 not only not an improvement compared to the X-E2s but an actual step down?

That would be an incredible disappointment. I've been waiting for the X-E3 for a long time... hoping for basically an X-E2 with the new sensor, with Acros with Grain and with better AF.

Fuji for some reason decided to drop the size which was already minimalistic enough, lose the flash (which came in handy) ... I could possibly live with this... but if the Viewfinder is not at least the same as the X-E2
...Show more

That's a 22% decrease in viewfinder size. Hard to believe that this is not a step backwards. I'd definitely try this before buying.





Sep 20, 2017 at 07:48 PM
Pavel
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


I too consider that a significant step down for serious enthusiasts, but for the market segment the body is aimed for, I don't think it will be any sort of real problem.

Gorgeous viewfinder - step up to the X-Pro 2 or X-T2.




Sep 20, 2017 at 07:56 PM
jecottrell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


I don't recall using the viewfinder much on my X-E2.

But, I guess the sky is still falling....



Sep 20, 2017 at 08:50 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


It seems to me that reducing the size of the tiny monitor in the viewfinder would only be a step backwards if that resulted in a smaller view in the eyepiece. I don't know since I haven't used the camera, but before we jump to conclusions ("Smaller? Bad!") we should look at it, since the shorter eye point and/or greater magnification of the monitor image could make it look the same size or ever larger than there monitor in the earlier cameras. It has the same pixel dimensions and could easily have equal or even better image quality.


Sep 21, 2017 at 12:23 AM
akin_t
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


jecottrell wrote:
I don't recall using the viewfinder much on my X-E2.

But, I guess the sky is still falling....



Well as long as jecottrell of FM forums doesn't use the EVF much, I guess it doesn't matter.



Sep 21, 2017 at 02:05 AM
lisy78
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


gdanmitchell wrote:
It seems to me that reducing the size of the tiny monitor in the viewfinder would only be a step backwards if that resulted in a smaller view in the eyepiece. I don't know since I haven't used the camera, but before we jump to conclusions ("Smaller? Bad!") we should look at it, since the shorter eye point and/or greater magnification of the monitor image could make it look the same size or ever larger than there monitor in the earlier cameras. It has the same pixel dimensions and could easily have equal or even better image quality.


help me learn this...

isn't the magnification what answers the question above?

Doesn't magnification mean "When we put a standard lens (usually 50mm) on it and you look through the viewfinder and you also look at the real life thing with your other eye, the view in the finder will be smaller by a factor of MAGNIFICATION than what you see with your other eye?"

if that is the case then with magnification of 0.62x that means that putting a 35mm lens on (rough 50mm equivalent) the view through the finder will look like it's 62% of the size of what you see in your other eye.

So the size of the screen will be irrelevant with your eye at the eyepiece, Is that correct?

In the meantime I have convinced myself that a smaller screen and smaller eyepoint means that things are for sure SIGNIFICANTLY worse for eyeglass wearers.

The formal definition of eye point seems to have to do with "how far can your eye be and still see the whole viewfinder" which sounds innocent enough. And at first I thought it had something to do with how big the final opening is, with the idea that in theory a completely removed eyecup would result in an infinite eyepoint.

The way I convinced myself that a smaller screen is simply worse PERIOD is by doing this experiment: I took my iphone and held it out in front of my face until the screen appeared to be the same size as the monitor I'm typing this on. I would estimate that the monitor was about 2 feet from my face and the iphone was about 5 inches away. I then scooted my head back by about an inch, leaving the iphone and the monitor where they were. the relative size of the iphone screen instantly became SUBSTANTIALLY smaller by a VERY noticeable margin.

Now the degree of difference will likely be LESS than what I experienced with my iphone vs monitor experiment but I am pretty confident that the perceived magnification will be noticeably less when you move your eye back from the eyepiece (as you do with glasses) even if you DO continue to see the whole viewfinder.

I find it extremely unlikely that I'm wrong here.



Sep 21, 2017 at 05:50 AM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


To answer your question, no, I don't think Fuji "messed up". I think Fuji does a good job of tailoring their cameras to the different market segments they are aiming at.

I think their XE3 video campaign shows the market segment they are targeting with the XE3. The videos are primarily travel/lifestyle, aimed at a young audience. In the videos, notice how often they mention "small", "light" and similar terms. I imagine Fuji could have put the gorgeous XT2 EVF viewfinder in the XE3, as well as adding an articulating screen. That would have come at a size/weight/price penalty, though.

Compare the XE3 videos to those produced for the XPro2 and the XT2 and their design/marketing strategy becomes even more apparent.

Finally, since the specs of the XE3 viewfinder is the same as the XT20 viewfinder, I went back and searched for XT20 reviews that discussed the viewfinder. Many were comparing the XT20 to the XT2 and pointing out differences, of which the viewfinder is one of the main items. As expected, they point out the XT2 viewfinder is much better. However, I couldn't find a review that painted the viewfinder in very negative terms. I'm surmising by the lack of negative remarks that the viewfinder is at least workable.

As I've mentioned, if I was buying a Fuji camera for work I think the only logical choice is the XT2. However, I'm willing to forego a lot of the features of the XT2 I grew to love while testing for a smaller camera to use while traveling. For my needs and budget, I betting the XE3 will be just fine.



Sep 21, 2017 at 08:10 AM
jecottrell
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


akin_t wrote:
...I guess it doesn't matter.





Tell us your personal experience with the pre-production model Fuji sent you.


X-E3
EVF: 0.39-inch 2.36M-dot OLED with 100% coverage, 0.62x magnification (35mm equivalent), 17.5mm eyepoint (from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece), -4 to +2 diopter adjustment, eye sensor

X-E2s
EVF: 0.5-inch 2.36M-dot OLED with 100% coverage, 0.62x magnifcation, 23mm eyepoint, -4 to +2 diopter adjustment, eye sensor


Maybe then you can explain how the eyepoint distance affects relative size of the EVF...



Sep 21, 2017 at 08:26 AM
fjablo
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?




jecottrell wrote:
Maybe then you can explain how the eyepoint distance affects relative size of the EVF...


Not sure whether they are really related but seems plausible since 23/17.5mm= 1.31 & 1.31 x 0.39inch = 0.5inch
-> you get the same viewfinder size (0.6x) as long as you get a little closer. Therefore it should not matter if you don’t wear glasses



Sep 21, 2017 at 11:55 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


lisy78 wrote:
help me learn this...

isn't the magnification what answers the question above?

Doesn't magnification mean "When we put a standard lens (usually 50mm) on it and you look through the viewfinder and you also look at the real life thing with your other eye, the view in the finder will be smaller by a factor of MAGNIFICATION than what you see with your other eye?"

if that is the case then with magnification of 0.62x that means that putting a 35mm lens on (rough 50mm equivalent) the view through the finder will look like it's 62% of the size of what you see
...Show more

I suspect that you may be somewhat overthinking this.

Let's try a hypothetical experiment. Let's get two 4k television screens. Both are of excellent quality, with good color and all the rest, and they have exactly the same pixel dimensions... but one is 20" wide and the other is 30" wide.

If you sit at some distance X from the 30" wide screen it looks great. Now let's say you sit at some closer distance Y such that the area of your visual field covered by the 20" monitor is the same as that covered by the 30" monitor at distance X.

Do you think that the image on the 20" monitor is now worse than that on the 30" monitor at the original distance?

It isn't.

When you look at a smaller internal viewfinder monitor with a shorter eye point, all else being equal, the image on that tiny monitor appears larger since you are closer to it. In addition, the manufacturer can place a lens between your eye and the monitor that magnifies its apparent size.

The bottom line has two parts.

1. Concluding that the result of the smaller viewfinder electronic monitor is to make the image poorer is premature, and other parameters need to be considered.

2. In the end, you really need to look into the camera's viewfinder and see what it really looks like. We can theorize about what we imagine it might look like until we are blue in the face... or we can go pick up a copy of the camera and look into in.

(I had concerns about the short eye point dimension when I got my XPro2, especially since I was aware of the reputation of the XT2 for having a really excellent EVF. Having used the XPro2 for more than a year now, I can report that it is fine. I also had concerns about the eye point on the XPro2 as an eyeglasses wearer. Also turned out to not be an issue.)

Good luck,

Dan

Edited on Sep 21, 2017 at 02:08 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2017 at 12:04 PM
jecottrell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


fjablo wrote:
Not sure whether they are really related but seems plausible since 23/17.5mm= 1.31 & 1.31 x 0.39inch = 0.5inch
-> you get the same viewfinder size (0.6x) as long as you get a little closer. Therefore it should not matter if you don’t wear glasses


gdanmitchell wrote:
When you look at a smaller internal viewfinder monitor with a shorter eye point, all else being equal, the image on that tiny monitor appears larger since you are closer to it. In addition, the manufacturer can place a lens between your eye and the monitor that magnifies its apparent size.





Folks with a brains.


I guess the Chicken Littles can get back to commiserating how terrible the X-E3 will be.



Sep 21, 2017 at 12:53 PM
akin_t
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


jecottrell wrote:


Tell us your personal experience with the pre-production model Fuji sent you.

X-E3
EVF: 0.39-inch 2.36M-dot OLED with 100% coverage, 0.62x magnification (35mm equivalent), 17.5mm eyepoint (from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece), -4 to +2 diopter adjustment, eye sensor

X-E2s
EVF: 0.5-inch 2.36M-dot OLED with 100% coverage, 0.62x magnifcation, 23mm eyepoint, -4 to +2 diopter adjustment, eye sensor

Maybe then you can explain how the eyepoint distance affects relative size of the EVF...


Look, I'm calling you out on you dismissing other people's concerns because you didn't use the EVF on your X-E2 much ... the fact that nobody has used an X-E3 here isn't relevant, but keep moving those goalposts.

Just because you don't use the EVF much doesn't mean it's not important to others ... It's surprising that such a concept has to be explained to an adult.



Sep 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM
gaopa
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Did Fuji mess up the most important feature on the X-E3?


I'm very happy with my X-E2 with a 23/2 lens and latest firmware. I also have an X-100F. I'm not considering the new X-E3 as I don't think it is a significant upgrade over the X-E2. I would really miss having the flash.


Sep 28, 2017 at 04:54 AM





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