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D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)
  
 
snapsy
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


I'm not sure how useful this comparison will be but here are the three raw sizes of the D850 compared for detail. All were shot with locked-down focus and the electronic shutter + timer. I compared the same three images twice - first at their native NEF resolutions (small/med/large) and then the small/med NEFs upsized to the large NEF size in PS using the "Preserve Details (enlargement)" resize algorithm.

Reminder of sizes:
Large: 8256x5504 (45 MP)
Medium: 6192x4128 (25 MP)
Small: 4128x2752 (11 MP)

D850 Small/Medium/Large Detail Comparison



Sep 20, 2017 at 07:40 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


And here is a noise comparison, applying a +5EV push in PS of a deep shadow region:

D850 Small/Medium/Large Noise Comparison



Sep 20, 2017 at 10:25 PM
harshaj1
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


snapsy wrote:
I'm not sure how useful this comparison will be but here are the three raw sizes of the D850 compared for detail. All were shot with locked-down focus and the electronic shutter + timer. I compared the same three images twice - first at their native NEF resolutions (small/med/large) and then the small/med NEFs upsized to the large NEF size in PS using the "Preserve Details (enlargement)" resize algorithm.

Reminder of sizes:
Large: 8256x5504 (45 MP)
Medium: 6192x4128 (25 MP)
Small: 4128x2752 (11 MP)

D850 Small/Medium/Large Detail Comparison


It looks like if you want the best quality and details shoot large NEF. The large NEF files capture lots of micro contrast compared to the other two. Not surprised by the results.

Thank you very much for taking time to do these tests.
Harsha


Edited on Sep 20, 2017 at 10:38 PM · View previous versions



Sep 20, 2017 at 10:36 PM
harshaj1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


snapsy wrote:
And here is a noise comparison, applying a +5EV push in PS of a deep shadow region:

D850 Small/Medium/Large Noise Comparison


I see banding and more noise in M and S raw pushed 5+.
Harsha



Sep 20, 2017 at 10:37 PM
designdog
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


Spoiler alert: I am a much satisfied owner of the D5.

It always amazes me when I see this stuff with +5EV push deep shadow noise analysis. Yes, I became aware of this with one publication's review of the D5, and the much investigated comparisons of low iso dynamic range. Yes, I understand the potential ramifications of this issue, but let me make the following points:

- in my involvement since the dawn of digital photography I have never pushed an image over 1.5 stops, much less 5
- the conditions in which you are shooting at low iso would seem to favor brightness, unless you are doing some artistic spot metering thing
- there are better ways to solve the image problem than pushing the entire image that much. Unless all you are doing is making a point for a review or something that has very little to do with real photography.

I owned a D800 and then a D810. When the furor dies down I will get a D850 to back up my D5. (For the few times I want to shoot pure landscapes, etc.)

My point is to concentrate on the overall image quality (I still think my D3s is the best image quality I have ever owned) and not the 100% pixel peeks or the +5EV noise analysis....




Sep 21, 2017 at 03:08 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


designdog wrote:
My point is to concentrate on the overall image quality (I still think my D3s is the best image quality I have ever owned) and not the 100% pixel peeks or the +5EV noise analysis....

If you believe the D3s has the best image quality you've ever owned then I think you're actually falling into the "100% pixel peeks" because it's only at 100% magnification where such conclusions are incorrectly reached. At the image level (rather than at "pixel peeks") your D810 and D5 have much better image quality than the D3s.



Sep 21, 2017 at 03:51 PM
sk66
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


Why did you up-sample? I would think the choice to use a smaller image size would indicate smaller output...


Sep 21, 2017 at 06:54 PM
walts.photo
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


On snapsy's posted images, it looks like the biggest difference is between Large and Medium.

Snapsy, nice job of upsampling the images. Thank you for the info.

I think I'll shoot large and if need to conserve space jump all the way down to small NEF.

Now we need a jpeg large vs NEF small comparison!



Sep 21, 2017 at 07:14 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


sk66 wrote:
Why did you up-sample? I would think the choice to use a smaller image size would indicate smaller output...


For the detail comparison I used both the original sizes and the upsamples. For noise you have to use the same area of the sensor to compare equitably which is why I upsampled - agree, downsampled would probably have made more sense.



Sep 21, 2017 at 08:10 PM
 

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designdog
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)




snapsy wrote:
If you believe the D3s has the best image quality you've ever owned then I think you're actually falling into the "100% pixel peeks" because it's only at 100% magnification where such conclusions are incorrectly reached. At the image level (rather than at "pixel peeks") your D810 and D5 have much better image quality than the D3s.


I am most certainly referring to image level. Image quality goes beyond resolution, to include things like color, tone, noise, etc. The D3s has its own, subtle, look. So did the D700. So does my much maligned D5.

I didnít get this feeling from the D800 or D810. Hopefully the D850 does, but we will see. I personally think it is related to pixel pitch, but what do I know...?



Sep 22, 2017 at 01:14 AM
Dj R
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


so what you're saying is, I need to remain at large, if I want the best quality. that sucks.
why can't they figure this out!!!?



Sep 22, 2017 at 01:51 AM
Oscarsmadness
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


Dj R wrote:
I need to remain at large


You're gonna, need or no need. Lol.



Sep 22, 2017 at 03:50 AM
sk66
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


snapsy wrote:
For the detail comparison I used both the original sizes and the upsamples. For noise you have to use the same area of the sensor to compare equitably which is why I upsampled - agree, downsampled would probably have made more sense.


The smaller raw files are created by in camera image scaling, not by pixel binning (unfortunately), and they are in 11 bit not 14 bit. I'm fairly confident that the in camera scaling algorithm is not as capable as dedicated scaling software can be, and any image scaling runs the risk of adversely affecting IQ. By letting the camera downsample the file, and then upsampling the files in post, they have suffered twice. But even at that, I would say they held up rather well.


Edited on Sep 22, 2017 at 02:56 PM · View previous versions



Sep 22, 2017 at 02:45 PM
sk66
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


walts.photo wrote:
On snapsy's posted images, it looks like the biggest difference is between Large and Medium.

Snapsy, nice job of upsampling the images. Thank you for the info.

I think I'll shoot large and if need to conserve space jump all the way down to small NEF.

Now we need a jpeg large vs NEF small comparison!


As long as the exposure is within reason I would expect jpeg-fine with compression set to optimal (or 12bit compressed raw files) to produce results better than sRAW. It's also interesting to note that using the smaller raw files also fills the buffer significantly faster because the image needs to be held in memory while being processed (at least it does with previous Nikons).



Sep 22, 2017 at 02:54 PM
kaplah
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


sk66 wrote:
The smaller raw files are created by in camera image scaling, not by pixel binning (unfortunately), and they are in 11 bit not 14 bit.

I believe it's 12-bit: http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/mraw-and-sraw-are-raw-but.html - perhaps your statement was a typo?





Sep 22, 2017 at 08:11 PM
sk66
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


kaplah wrote:
I believe it's 12-bit: http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/mraw-and-sraw-are-raw-but.html - perhaps your statement was a typo?

It's a 12bit pipeline, but tests on the D810/D4s show 11bit data... not that it should matter all that much, if the exposure is right and the image is not pushed hard 8bit is more than enough.





Sep 22, 2017 at 08:49 PM
kaplah
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


sk66 wrote:
It's a 12bit pipeline, but tests on the D810/D4s show 11bit data... not that it should matter all that much, if the exposure is right and the image is not pushed hard 8bit is more than enough.


Well, the D850 data is quite different from the D810 data. For one thing, it's actually Raw. The article I linked goes into that.




Sep 22, 2017 at 08:51 PM
sk66
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · D850 raw sizes compared (detail and noise)


kaplah wrote:
Well, the D850 data is quite different from the D810 data. For one thing, it's actually Raw. The article I linked goes into that.



To my mind "raw" means straight from the AD converter. I don't really see how a downsampled image, probably with some type of noise suppression algorithm as well (it would be foolish not to), can be considered raw. It might be "raw" in the sense that the colors have not yet been processed to a specific color space, but that's about it (if that's even true).



Sep 22, 2017 at 09:39 PM







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