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Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?
  
 
ELinder
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Pretty much everything has been said that I would have said. I use a D5, D500, and EM-1Mk2 and they definitely complement each other nicely in that I've got the right tool for just about everything I care to shoot. I had a D4, and the D500 is definitely a better choice all around. When I bought my D500 they had the free battery grip deal, and it helps a lot for balance on big lenses (I use the 200-400 f/4 with it on occasion).

Erich



Sep 22, 2017 at 02:07 PM
Jeff Self
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


I own the Olympus OM-D E-M1 and an assortment of PRO lenses for it: 7-14mm, 12-40mm, 40-150mm. I wanted to get the 300mm when it was announced but the price tag held me back. Then when the E-M1 II debuted last autumn, I was disappointed to hear that the C-AF tracking didn't work too well.

So I bought a Nikon D500 and the Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8. Had to get used to the dSLR again. But man, the D500 is an awesome camera. And I just recently picked up the Nikon 200-500mm f/5.6 for it. What a great lens! Especially for $1400.

I haven't sold any of my Olympus gear yet. And I don't know if I will. I love mirrorless, but I'm keeping my eyes open for the Nikon mirrorless thats coming. If its good and not crippled, I may then sell my Olympus gear. In the meantime, my eyes are on the D850 and filling out my lens requirements for the Nikon with the Tamron 15-30mm, Tamron 24-70mm and replacing my 70-200mm with the new version.




Sep 22, 2017 at 04:01 PM
Wilbus
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


I see my futile attempt at quoting your previous post as you do with "parts" of it failed miserably. I must have missed an end quote somewhere! I'm glad you understood it all though!

A problem I have, and one I share with many others here I think is that I am highly addicted to good glass. For me it doesn't have to be extremely fast but it should be really good. I am always sceptical towards third party zooms although I know Sigma and their Art-series is really great (Primes especially).

If I go back to Nikon, I will most definitely go with a FF in the future as well, possibly a used one or wait and see what they bring out in terms of mirrorless.
A D800 in Sweden now can be had around $1000 and a D810 for about $1500 it seems like. So a D500 + D810 would still be cheaper then the D850 (which is the camera I would really want but out of my reach for now). The D800E could also be an alternative of course.

It may very well be that I save up for the 850 after having used the D500 for a while or just go with a used D810 which will further decrease in in the used market. The D850 would make a pretty big price difference in Sweden, you could get a new D500, a used D810 and a used D4 for the same money. Or just a D500 and some good glass

I really think I will keep my m43 either how, it's small and agile, good quality. I will have to see if I can rent a E-M1.2 and maybe a D500 and a long lens and do some comparisons between the both. Still, the most economical and smart choice would be to stick with m43 but sometimes one just wants a taste of the grass on the other side of the fence.




Sep 22, 2017 at 07:56 PM
Wilbus
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Getting late here, will answer all others tomorrow!

I greatly appreciate everybody thoughts, ideas and recommendations!



Sep 22, 2017 at 07:58 PM
elkhornsun
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


The E-M1 Mark II with the 300mm f/4 OS lens is simply amazing. No autofocus fine tuning needed and the OS of the lens works in tandem with the OS of the camera. I was getting sharp images with the 300mm while shooting at 1/8s - amazing and far superior to any Nikon VR lens.

The equivalent VR lens from Nikon, the 600mm f/4 FL lens, sells for over $12,000 and weighs over 8 lbs. and at its size is not fun to take on board a plane.

I have the D500 and its autofocus system is fantastic but most lenses are expensive with even the 80-400mm f/5.6 selling for $2,300. These are a nice combination but I was photographing hummers in Costa Rica in January with this setup and my 500mm f/4 lens and my wife was shooting with the E-M1 II and the 300mm f/4 and 40-150mm f/2.8 with and without the 1.4x teleconverter and she got as many keepers as I did during the two weeks of our trip.

I can go a lot higher with my ISO settings with the D500 camera and I can make 50% larger prints without any effort so there is some gain for the pain (and extra expense) with the DSLR route.

There are a number of aspects of the mirrorless E-M1 that I wish were on DSLR cameras, including the electronic viewfinder. In very low light I can up the EV and see the change in the viewfinder whereas with a DSLR I will be shooting blind and then chimping to see if I got the shot. One does need the 5-axis image stabilization and the Pro f/2.8 lenses to have a MFT setup that will be on par with a top level DSLR but that is still relatively economical.



Sep 22, 2017 at 08:49 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


elkhornsun wrote:
I was getting sharp images with the 300mm while shooting at 1/8s - amazing and far superior to any Nikon VR lens.


You may want to check out some of the shutter speeds in the 200-500 VR thread, you might be surprised. I remember one example of 700mm (1890mm equivalent) shot at 1/25 a second and a tack sharp result with loose support if I recall correctly. I have pretty shaky hands and I can get into the 1/30 range with my 200-500 @ 500 if my subject is of course static. "Far superior to any Nikon VR lens" is a fairly bold claim to be accompanied by no supporting data. I'd be curious to see your testing on the subject.

elkhornsun wrote:
The equivalent VR lens from Nikon, the 600mm f/4 FL lens, sells for over $12,000 and weighs over 8 lbs. and at its size is not fun to take on board a plane.


The equivalent VR lens form Nikon would be the 300/4 VR, and it's smaller, cheaper, and half the weight of the Olympus 300/4. Focal length does not change because you use the lens on a camera with a small sensor. The 600/4E FL is in an entirely different category.

elkhornsun wrote:
One does need the 5-axis image stabilization and the Pro f/2.8 lenses to have a MFT setup that will be on par with a top level DSLR but that is still relatively economical.


I don't think you will find many people who would agree that M43 setup is on par with a D5 or D850.



Sep 22, 2017 at 10:23 PM
Wilbus
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Surfnsun wrote:
For wildlife I’d say you’re going to want all the reach you can get. I’d go D500 + 200-500 over a D4. I personally wouldn’t worry about it being a crop sensor. It’s an incredible camera. The better AF alone puts it above the D4 if my intention was wildlife shooting. Because after-all the picture doesn’t matter at all unless you can get it in focus. I think we’d all agree that the best wildlife shots are absolutely tact sharp. I would just want to get myself every advantage possible when shooting a subject I can’t control, such as wildlife.
...Show more

Well that's the thing, getting it in focus is the big problem, keeping it in focus is another problem. I had another bird of pray appeared nearby on large lamp post. I couldn't trust C-AF at all, prefocused with S-AF and got some shots, including the take off but the shot after was out of focus (actually, the tallons, once again, are in very sharp focus )
So totally agree, not only about focus but about advantage. My trouble is, is it worth changing system for, or adding a system? Or should I wait for E-M1.2 firmware upgrades or E-M1.3 before making a decision and just work with what I have and work around the problems?

Thanks for taking the time to reply
---------------------------------------------

OwlsEyes wrote:
I am a little late to this discussion, but I would like to offer a bit of insight... at least from my observations and experience. I am a Nikon shooter. My wife and I have quite the collection of bodies and lenses that fall within your intended use. We have 3 D500's , a D810 and a D610. I shot a D4 for years, and while its low noise performance was amazing, the 16mp and non-crop body required me to shoot at the longest focal lengths or with a converter all of the time. As for lenses, we have a
...Show more

Thank you for taking the time to read as well as giving such a comprehensive answer! You are not late to the party at all, I will, for once, TRY, not to make any hasty decision (this will probably fail). I am still both considering and thinking either Nikon or m43 or just m43 and stay the course. The D4 is off the list thanks to all excellent replies and wisdom here!

No system is perfect I suppose and your post really proves that. I am sure the m43 guy on the boat was looking at your D500 with better ISO and great tracking and thinking "Wish I had that" and you're looking at him an thinking "Wish I had the track and shoot feature".

Capture one does indeed eat noise in a very well behaved way. Much superior to Lightroom. This is also quite obvious with m43 files from the E-M1 and in most situations, unless under weird man made light, with high ISO and longer shutter speeds, the ISO even at 3200-6400 can be tamed.

My pockets certainly aren't very deep but thinking about selling a mountainbike that's not getting enough use and that would fund either a D500 or the 300PF and add as a second/primary system besides m43. I really feel I am a bit too heavily invested in m43 to let it go, not only that but on everything but tracking the system is great. It's superb for kayaking for example, hiking as well.

Now, I was down at an expo this Friday at a local camera store. They had invited every make there, including of course Nikon and Olympus as well as Phase One with their medium format cameras and Fuji with their GFX (amazing they put that sensor in a small body like that).

I got to use the D500 and 200-500 as well as the 300PF which quite quickly made me change my mind about the "obvious" choice of the D500 and 200-500. The 300PF suddenly became the obvious choice even though less versatile. I mean WOW, the lens is tiny! Had Olympus managed to do something like this with their 300mm F4, and at that price rather then $800 above, they would have had a real, superior winner. In fact, I'd say the D500 + 300PF is a more nimble choice then the E-M1.2 and 300F4. Even with the 1.4 TC it is still around 100 grams lighter then the similar Olympus combo, as well as smaller.

As far as the 200-500 not being weather sealed other then the lens mount, this is actually a deal breaker for me. I often hike or shoot in rain, even very heavy rain and I don't normally put my camera away. I never use rain covers fot the camera and I never use an umbrella. Part of my go nimble thing. Olympus and PRO lenses have no issues with heavy rain and I suspect the D500+300PF would be in the same territory. I feel the extra $600 or so would be worth it.

Thanks again, much appreciated! (Oh, and PM is on the way!)
---------------------------------------------

Pavel wrote:
I have to confess Wilbur that on the strength of some of the points raised by OwlsEyes, CanadaMark and others, I'd now go for the D500 myself if you don't mind losing a more general purpose use a bit by losing you wide angle lenses on Nikon (assuming you have some and care).

But for that you have your micro 43 gear, as do I, so yeah, the D500 is a very attractive option, even to me now.

I'd never paid much mind to the D500 due to liking FF so much and valuing other aspects of the Nikon system such as
...Show more

I will never forget what you said above, enjoyed the post too much
I can say I will "ignore" your D4 suggestion though

Yes they all raise very good points and I've received not only more replies then I initially thought but also far better replies and advice, I am truly happy about all the good info here!

Yes I would lose the general purpose camera of FF, then again with FF I would lose some reach. I still have a Nikon AF-D 180 F2.8 and a Nikon AF-D 50mm F1.4 which would both work fine on the D500 (it still does have the motor in the body right?) but no wide angles. Like you said, I have m43 for that.
Price wise, and performance wise thanks to AF tracking, the D500 seems like the smarter choice over investing in the E-M1.2 and a 300F4, actually, I've kind of written off the Olympus 300F4 due to price and size when compared to the Nikon 300PF. This combo could actually be carried on your backpack strap while kayaking.

Regards

Rasmus




Sep 24, 2017 at 06:12 AM
Wilbus
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


elkhornsun wrote:
The E-M1 Mark II with the 300mm f/4 OS lens is simply amazing. No autofocus fine tuning needed and the OS of the lens works in tandem with the OS of the camera. I was getting sharp images with the 300mm while shooting at 1/8s - amazing and far superior to any Nikon VR lens.

The equivalent VR lens from Nikon, the 600mm f/4 FL lens, sells for over $12,000 and weighs over 8 lbs. and at its size is not fun to take on board a plane.

I have the D500 and its autofocus system is fantastic but most lenses
...Show more

Thanks for the reply!

Well that's the constant problem of comparing different sensor sizes. Without trying to sound biased to Nikon here (since I am a m43 shooter) the Olympus 300mm F4 is, in fact, a 300mm F4 lens. Yes it does give the equivalent field of view of a 600mm lens on a 36x24mm sensor body but then again, so does the Nikon 300 F4 PF if you were to mount that to an Olympus body. Sure, you would lose AF but play with the thought. Nikon managed to make a small 300mm F4 that needs to cover the entire image area of a 36x24mm sensor. The lens is around 60% of the weight of the Olympus, around 7cm (roughly 3 inches) shorter and it's got about the same diameter.

Given the fact that Olympus need to make their lenses to cover a smaller sensor they really should have been able to get a high quality 300mm prime down to the same size. I'm kind of sorry to say this but in this case, and this is from someone who loves m43 and Olympus, they did a pretty bad job. Don't get me wrong, I know the Oly 300F4 is an amazing lens, but currently it's also the most expensive 300mm F4 in the world. It's also the second largest, for any system without regard to sensor size being beaten only by the now quite old design of the Nikon 300 F4 IF ED. Now, the Olympus is sharp as hell, and it's very well controlled optically and it's got stabilization but so does the Nikon 300PF. They should be in the same ball park as far as price, size and weight goes.

I love m43, every lens I have is extremely good and there is never back or front focusing. I also really like EVF's for the same reasons, and more, as you do so there are lots of things that speak for m43. On the other hand, at least on my E-M1, for tracking birds in flight once I actually start shooting, the EVF suck. I know this has been improved with later modells though. I know this is also one of the reasons Olympus released the hot-shoe sight.

No matter how much I try and justify Olympus E-M1.2 and 300F4 I can't get around the fact that it's somewhat overpriced for what it tries to be. The 300 is a wild life lens but it can't really be used for it until the camera keeps up with it. The camera is one of the fastest on the market but not when it comes to actually tracking stuff, this means it's mainly a "fast-as-hell-camera-for-stationary-subjects-and-or-slow-subjects-approaching-a-known-point" kind of thing and in such, doesn't offer my all that much upgrade from the E-M1.

Perhaps my smartest choice would be to stay with the E-M1 and work with stationary birds and/or places I know birds will come (such as a hiding). At least until I have truly made up my mind




Edited on Sep 24, 2017 at 06:42 AM · View previous versions



Sep 24, 2017 at 06:35 AM
 

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Wilbus
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


ELinder wrote:
Pretty much everything has been said that I would have said. I use a D5, D500, and EM-1Mk2 and they definitely complement each other nicely in that I've got the right tool for just about everything I care to shoot. I had a D4, and the D500 is definitely a better choice all around. When I bought my D500 they had the free battery grip deal, and it helps a lot for balance on big lenses (I use the 200-400 f/4 with it on occasion).

Erich


Very interesting to find more people who use more then one system and the two systems I am thinking about as well. Also reassuring to hear one more vote for the D500
May I ask if you've tried the tracking with the E-M1.2? If so, any success?

---------------------------------------------

Jeff Self wrote:
I own the Olympus OM-D E-M1 and an assortment of PRO lenses for it: 7-14mm, 12-40mm, 40-150mm. I wanted to get the 300mm when it was announced but the price tag held me back. Then when the E-M1 II debuted last autumn, I was disappointed to hear that the C-AF tracking didn't work too well.

So I bought a Nikon D500 and the Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8. Had to get used to the dSLR again. But man, the D500 is an awesome camera. And I just recently picked up the Nikon 200-500mm f/5.6 for it. What a great lens! Especially for
...Show more

Another one with both systems and it's great to hear you're enjoying both, and that you have the same feeling about both the E-M1.2 and the 300mm F4. I mainly use the 12-40 and 40-150 PRO as well, coupled with some smaller primes and 60mm macro (macro is just superior on m43).

I'm kind of thinking that my current Olympus gear combined with a D500 would make a good combo for what I want. Not sure if I would just end up with using one system though...

Thanks to the both of you!



Sep 24, 2017 at 06:41 AM
Pavel
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Wilbus wrote:
Very interesting to find more people who use more then one system and the two systems I am thinking about as well. Also reassuring to hear one more vote for the D500
May I ask if you've tried the tracking with the E-M1.2? If so, any success?

---------------------------------------------

Another one with both systems and it's great to hear you're enjoying both, and that you have the same feeling about both the E-M1.2 and the 300mm F4. I mainly use the 12-40 and 40-150 PRO as well, coupled with some smaller primes and 60mm macro (macro is just superior on m43).

I'm kind
...Show more

I find this interesting as well and quite a step in the right direction (and financial ruin ) in that people are embracing the idea that each system has something unique to offer, and so it makes a strong degree of sense to be multi-format. Sort of like being multilingual.

First I felt as if I were crazy, supporting more than one system at a time, and a good deal guilty. Then I reflected upon the concept of a woman's shoe closet.



Sep 24, 2017 at 09:30 AM
ELinder
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Wilbus wrote:
Very interesting to find more people who use more then one system and the two systems I am thinking about as well. Also reassuring to hear one more vote for the D500
May I ask if you've tried the tracking with the E-M1.2? If so, any success?


To compare apples to apples as much as possible, during one equestrian dressage event I took the D5, D500, and EM-1.2 and used each one for a couple hours each one after the other. My staples are always the Nikon gear for shows, but I wanted to see how the Oly would do. This isn't a birds in flight difficult situation, but I was impressed with how far the mirrorless systems have come in tracking AF. It did exhibit some weird behavior at times, most likely because of the many ways the AF can be fine tuned that I just haven' gotten into yet and the fact that it still lags tracking over a DSLR. It takes more work and technique to get it dialed in, but as the Oly image threads show, can produce fabulous results. I didn't get as many keepers as with the Nikons, but plenty enough to please me. In a pinch I could use it at an outdoor show where I sell photos.

Having said all that, the D5/D500 AF is almost foolproof. Good light, bad light, snap changes, almost anything I throw at it the AF can handle. Whenever it's off, it's most likely something I did.

The funny thing is, whenever I want to just play around or try something new, more and more I reach for the Olympus system. The menu system sucks, but there are more possibilities built into the firmware for things it will do than the Nikons. For example, a big deal was made of the D850 being able to take focus brackets. Oly has had that for a long time, and also has a mode to combine in camera to boot.

Erich



Sep 24, 2017 at 03:18 PM
Wilbus
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Pavel wrote:
I find this interesting as well and quite a step in the right direction (and financial ruin ) in that people are embracing the idea that each system has something unique to offer, and so it makes a strong degree of sense to be multi-format. Sort of like being multilingual.

First I felt as if I were crazy, supporting more than one system at a time, and a good deal guilty. Then I reflected upon the concept of a woman's shoe closet.


That kind of mimics my feelings about it. Guilty, crazy, financially "stupid". But I think the times have moved forward since the last days of SLR's where there was "only" 36x24mm film cameras. No we have more choices, more cameras that are good at equal things. All can do everything but some excel where others don't.

After the expo the other day I was all set on keeping only m43 and "stay the course". But with some more thought, I won't loose money by keeping what I got but neither will I be happy with the tracking for example. Thus keeping what I got, use it for what I like and then add a D500 with lenses of focal lengths that I don't have, need or can use to their fullest extent on m43, for example longer lenses for BIF or tracking other animals, sports etc. In that way the two systems shouldn't overlap too much and the cost, though higher, might not be that much higher then actually keeping/buying two bodies for the same system (as I need two bodies anyway and different lenses).

Wether I spend $2000 on a Nikon body or an Olympus body won't make a difference financially. I will however gain the benefit of both systems.

"The concept of a woman's shoe clost"... I'm not sure wether I should the my girlfriend about that statement and how true I find it. Might have to sleep on the sofa



Sep 24, 2017 at 09:14 PM
Wilbus
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


ELinder wrote:
To compare apples to apples as much as possible, during one equestrian dressage event I took the D5, D500, and EM-1.2 and used each one for a couple hours each one after the other. My staples are always the Nikon gear for shows, but I wanted to see how the Oly would do. This isn't a birds in flight difficult situation, but I was impressed with how far the mirrorless systems have come in tracking AF. It did exhibit some weird behavior at times, most likely because of the many ways the AF can be fine tuned that I just
...Show more

I saw that thread Erich and loved the photos, It's also very interesting to see you use both systems and use them well. It also kind of goes to prove that both systems can be used together with each other rather then seeing them as pure competitors. m43 has got a lot of innovation in the system, things that still don't exist in other systems like live composite and, up until the D850, focus bracketing. It was very interesting reading about what people who haven't heard of this before went all crazy when the D850 was announced proclaiming how unique it was. Now imagine the D850 sensor with the High-res technique from the E-M1.2

I often use focus bracketing or stacking with my E-M1, this is what makes it the best macro camera IMO. This and the superb 60mm macro

/Rasmus



Sep 24, 2017 at 09:20 PM
damianmkv
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


ELinder wrote:
To compare apples to apples as much as possible, during one equestrian dressage event I took the D5, D500, and EM-1.2 and used each one for a couple hours each one after the other. My staples are always the Nikon gear for shows, but I wanted to see how the Oly would do. This isn't a birds in flight difficult situation, but I was impressed with how far the mirrorless systems have come in tracking AF. It did exhibit some weird behavior at times, most likely because of the many ways the AF can be fine tuned that I just
...Show more

First post here so be gentle...

I must say that I agree with the above. I've had an e-m1 for 2.5 years, mainly shooting drag racing and my son's bmx. Several things annoy me about the 1.1 so earlier this month I tried the 1.2 against the d500 + 70-200

The battery life is about the same, in fact the Olympus was ahead. High ISO ( like 10000 ) is much closer than I thought it would be but the Nikon wins. Regarding AF, the Olympus C-AF + TR and the Nikon 3D both demonstrated the ability to wander off of the subject occasionally. In C-AF, both cameras acquired focus really quickly BUT the d500 generally kept locked whereas the e-m1.2 would still suffer OOF shots in a sequence whilst panning.

For me and the subjects I mainly shoot, the OVF was much more usefull. Yes, the 1.2 EVF blackout is much reduced from the 1.1 but it's still there and I know there's some in the d500 but barely noticeable.

So, I've decided to sell up and change back to Nikon. I've sold some Fuji gear and I think that I could sell my 2 pro lenses and have enough to get the d500 and a lens or 3 AND keep the e-m1 for travel. That last bit might change though...



Sep 29, 2017 at 06:12 AM
Blakehfreeman
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Used D4 or new D500 with m43 as second system?


Welcome! Ignore the jerks (couch photographers) and enjoy the rest of us!

damianmkv wrote:
First post here so be gentle...

I must say that I agree with the above. I've had an e-m1 for 2.5 years, mainly shooting drag racing and my son's bmx. Several things annoy me about the 1.1 so earlier this month I tried the 1.2 against the d500 + 70-200

The battery life is about the same, in fact the Olympus was ahead. High ISO ( like 10000 ) is much closer than I thought it would be but the Nikon wins. Regarding AF, the Olympus C-AF + TR and the Nikon 3D both demonstrated the ability to wander off of the
...Show more



Sep 29, 2017 at 07:23 AM
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