Home · Register · Software · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

Sports Corner Rules
Sports Corner Resource
  

FM Forums | Sports Corner | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3       4       end
  

Sports Photographs for Free
  
 
schlotz
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Sports Photographs for Free


Donn Kester wrote:
Look at it this way the pro contributes to the booster club in some way and sells their product to get that donation. Someone else comes in gives photos away taking away the sales from the pro in turn reduces the contributions to the booster club. Booster club counts on those contributions now they have to raise more money else ware or ask the parents to pay more money to support the team. Pro is out income and the parents will have to pay more to support the team. Correct me if I am wrong.


+1 Donn. Very good example.

David, the self centered 'enthusiast' out for enjoyment doesn't stop to think about anyone else. If they did a fee structure would have been established. And for those that don't want to charge (insert the justifying reason of their choice), then don't give them away, period.



Sep 24, 2017 at 02:12 PM
cocodrillo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Sports Photographs for Free


Okay, Schlotz, you have a point, but perhaps only in your country. I've shot in Canada and Australia and the market is dead as a doornail there, too, without the booster club factor in play. What has happened is that some of my long-time partners make use of the images I provide to keep the sport profile up, pulling in more kids, which keeps the rate of rise in membership fees down. It also has a big role when it comes to getting grants and government support for various activities. Some in the sports I work with get this -- if you don't have happy memories you don't get legacy involvement and attract sponsors -- but the trick is now finding a way to ensure the financial backing is there to keep the quality of imagery up to have the necessary visual impact.


Sep 24, 2017 at 02:51 PM
leewoolery
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Sports Photographs for Free


I have eliminated all spec shooting for my action photography for high school and youth sports.

This season I added action photo pre-paid packages to my team and individual order form and that has pretty much told me where this part of the business has now landed.

I make sure the yearbook staff at the high schools under contract have a few action images for their pages but only a few.

For the high schools, I only concentrate on the senior athletes and cheerleaders for those sports where the booster clubs have commissioned the post-season action collages or for those parents who purchased the action package from order form.

In other words...my company now has adopted the policy "you want action photos of your athletes, you will pay for the service in advance" or no photos will be taken.

There are enough parents with cameras giving away the free action photos at schools and youth leagues so they will find somebody to cover their athletes, usually for free and quality doesn't matter.

"If it's free, it's for me" seems to be the new normal as to youth sports action photography.

95% of my business now consists of pre-season banners for seniors, post-season action collages and team and individual photos with schools and youth leagues under contract.

Other leagues and schools call for action coverage but I turn down all of those requests now unless I have the full contract, those services are no longer provided.

At least the home high schools don't allow parents on the field for football and soccer and any amateurs must shoot from behind the fences or in the stands. If you aren't media or authorized, with field pass or credentials, you are not welcome.

With youth sports, parents are everywhere with cameras on sidelines but there is no longer a market for professional photographers in this part of the country.

As professionals, it is our duty and responsibility to continually provide excellent photography and customer service with innovation, creative designs and make sure the "wow" factor is seen even for a simple individual photo of an athlete or cheerleader and the general public sees the value of the work and perceived value is a non-factor vs. the el-cheapo alternative.





Sep 24, 2017 at 03:55 PM
Fish On
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Sports Photographs for Free


Marty Bingham: "The pros/semi pros moved on. It was a nice market for a while but not so much any more.
The - shooters who were trying to sell photos vs the shooters who were giving them away - debate got pretty ugly a few years ago and I really don't care to revive it. Nobody's mind was changed then and it's too late now."


Paul Alesse: "I'm forever thankful for this post, because it brought out some old time FM'ers that I haven't seen in years.


I remember when a lot of pros used to frequent this Sports Forum and shared their thoughts and advice to photogs that were needing help. If the old-timers remember, threads hardly lasted more than a few days on the first page after rolling off into the next page. Nowadays, you can see threads that have been on the first page for weeks and some hardly have any responses. I guess some of the photogs that were asking for advice got better and started selling photos and some gave them away for free and the pros that used to frequent this site started dropping off and stopped giving advice. Coincidence?



Sep 24, 2017 at 10:19 PM
ScooterShooter
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Sports Photographs for Free


Donn Kester wrote:
Look at it this way the pro contributes to the booster club in some way and sells their product to get that donation. Someone else comes in gives photos away taking away the sales from the pro in turn reduces the contributions to the booster club. Booster club counts on those contributions now they have to raise more money else ware or ask the parents to pay more money to support the team. Pro is out income and the parents will have to pay more to support the team. Correct me if I am wrong.


Yes, that would be relevant in situations where that is happening. It is not happening at the school I am at, and I have no idea how prevalent that model is throughout the US.




Sep 25, 2017 at 01:23 PM
ScooterShooter
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Sports Photographs for Free


schlotz wrote:
David, the self centered 'enthusiast' out for enjoyment doesn't stop to think about anyone else. If they did a fee structure would have been established. And for those that don't want to charge (insert the justifying reason of their choice), then don't give them away, period.


I can see how a professional would have this attitude, but an amateur? I can't give a photo to my mother-in-law of her grandchildren? Or to a friend of his child?



Sep 25, 2017 at 01:29 PM
schlotz
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Sports Photographs for Free


ScooterShooter wrote:
I can see how a professional would have this attitude, but an amateur? I can't give a photo to my mother-in-law of her grandchildren? Or to a friend of his child?


Sorry but you might have missed the point that others & myself have been making. It has nothing to do with giving photos to grandma etc... Being an 'amateur' is NOT a justification for providing free action photos to the public just so one can feel good. Treading on someone else's livelihood is not how most were raised yet somewhere in there a number of individuals have chosen to forget what they were taught.



Sep 25, 2017 at 05:15 PM
ScooterShooter
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Sports Photographs for Free


schlotz wrote:
Sorry but you might have missed the point that others & myself have been making. It has nothing to do with giving photos to grandma etc... Being an 'amateur' is NOT a justification for providing free action photos to the public just so one can feel good. Treading on someone else's livelihood is not how most were raised yet somewhere in there a number of individuals have chosen to forget what they were taught.


Forgive my misunderstanding. I was thrown off by your use of "period", which I typically interpret to mean "never". Thank you for your feedback on this topic.





Sep 25, 2017 at 07:09 PM
cocodrillo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Sports Photographs for Free


ScooterShooter -- the bitterness over the collapse of the industry in general is not going to go away. But the problem isn't just specific to action sports photography, but to most intellectual property related fields in general. Just ask a writer or musician or an adjunct university professor. Nobody wants to pay for anything they can find 'free' on the internet. Not even the publications that make their money selling ad space and printed copies. We're in a transition period. Some are adapting, some walking away, some (well... let's be honest, most) are just angry. And it isn't going to get better. Autofocus and digital killed the business --- the skill level needed now to get an acceptable sports photo is really not particularly high; heart-stopping pictures are still incredibly hard to do and there are still only a handful who can reliably do it, but for the rest of image needs.... free or nearly free seems to work for most.


Sep 25, 2017 at 09:04 PM
CW100
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Sports Photographs for Free


cocodrillo wrote:
ScooterShooter -- the bitterness over the collapse of the industry in general is not going to go away. But the problem isn't just specific to action sports photography, but to most intellectual property related fields in general. Just ask a writer or musician or an adjunct university professor. Nobody wants to pay for anything they can find 'free' on the internet. Not even the publications that make their money selling ad space and printed copies. We're in a transition period. Some are adapting, some walking away, some (well... let's be honest, most) are just angry. And it isn't going to
...Show more

true but it's more than intellectual property. Tax accountants say that free online TurboTax (and other sites) are taking their business. Magazines and newspapers say social media is giving the "news" away for free.
Technology keeps changing, some lose, some win




Sep 25, 2017 at 09:44 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



hoytme
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Sports Photographs for Free


After following this thread for a number of days I feel a need to weigh in. First I would like to say as a non professional I have often given away the pictures I have taken for free. I do this because the kids are friends of my children, and we have personal relationships and friendships with many of the their parents. My wife and I are also very active with our boosters, my wife is a board member, and we are life members who routinely contribute many-many hours a year in volunteer work and generally contribute in excess of 1k in financial support to the boosters and sports programs. I have also spent hundreds of dollars on a photographic print and digital art pieces that I like from artists and professionals.

Now that you have a little background on me, here is why I don't feel bad for giving away a picture.

As professionals, I agree you should be producing better images, higher quality pictures, than I do or I'm paying for lesser quality. I don't care what your gear costs, that doesn't justify $45 for a shitty OOF 5x7 print just because you have the event contract. Photography is an interesting profession in that there is nothing that establishes a professional as a professional in photography. There are no tests. You don't have to be licensed. There's no required schooling, although many have formal schooling. Nothing. Anyone can call themselves a pro and many people do. The last "pro" that shot our indoor cheer comp, shot all night on automatic mode with her 18-55 kit lens on a Canon T3i. Thank god for the amateur that knew the right spot to sit with his 1DX and 200 f2 or there wouldn't have been any pictures of the event that were usable.

Also, how many of you "professionals" mow your own lawn instead of hiring a lawn service. How many cook your own meals instead of hiring a chef. How many paint the rooms in your home instead of hiring a painter. How many people have ever baked a loaf of bread instead of buying it from the bakery. How many people shovel their walks instead of paying the neighbor boy. How many people hang a picture on the wall and select the nail yourself without consulting an engineer to properly size the nail for you. You get the point, absurd, you bet but so are some of the arguments here. The true pros in our area can stand on their own, the so-so ones don't last long.

As a manager in a fortune 500 company here is my advice. Stop complaining, if you want to be successful, develop a business plan. Hire a marketing firm, hire a social media expert, re-invent yourself. Make yourself the go to person. I would love to sit and watch a game instead of capturing it. But I want a superior product and a fair price, not free, not cheap, just fair. $90 for one 8x10 IMHO is not a fair price.





Sep 27, 2017 at 02:50 AM
Weasel_Loader
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Sports Photographs for Free


hoytme wrote:
After following this thread for a number of days I feel a need to weigh in. First I would like to say as a non professional I have often given away the pictures I have taken for free. I do this because the kids are friends of my children, and we have personal relationships and friendships with many of the their parents. My wife and I are also very active with our boosters, my wife is a board member, and we are life members who routinely contribute many-many hours a year in volunteer work and generally contribute in excess of
...Show more

Couldn't have said it better myself. Too many full-time photogs out there that keep the same marketing strategy they had back in film days and only complain instead of adapting and finding a way to stay on top of the game. When I got into shooting rodeo events, I was told by a number of full timers not to waste my time and that nobody buys prints anymore and are only interested in digitals. Well, I'm here to tell you that you bust your butt and get down in the dirt to get compelling shots you can sell those prints when you put the effort into it. Now could I do this full time and make the same money I do with my full time job? No way on earth!!! I'd have to shoot portraits during the week and weddings on the weekends when I'm not "enjoying my hobby" of shooting rodeo.

For so long, the full time event shooters had no competition as the learning curve to get good shots was out of reach to most people. Digital changed all that and it will only get even more competitive. People laugh at digital filters and Apple's new portrait process, but they are now achieving things that just a few years ago, I thought would be impossible based on laws of physics in optics.



Sep 27, 2017 at 03:07 AM
glort
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Sports Photographs for Free


ScooterShooter wrote:
Based on the "Immutable Laws" thread, I'm now wondering if I am somehow disrespecting the photography brotherhood by providing free photos? I have a full-time job and so am not in it for the money. I just enjoy the challenge of getting a good image.


Amazing.

You had to read that thread before it even occurred to you that you maybe fking with someones Livelihood? I'm guessing your day job is not in the field of Rocket Science nor are you a Brain surgeon.

You are certainly disrespecting the profession, but don't worry about it. Others like you fked it some time back so it really doesn't matter now. All the people that invested in things like Event trailers and slogged their guts out to try and compete with the scabs giving work away " because they liked taking Pics" have gone into other things or just got out completely and the weekend warriors have found other bright shiny object's to turn their attention to as well after collapsing the industry for everyone.

People with phones DID still buy pics when I was doing sports because there was a hell of a difference between what they could get and what I could. That gap got narrowed by the scabs undercutting and giving pics away because they had other work and as said, you can't compete with free and it only has to be good enough which is a very low standard to achieve.

I guess most of the ones that screwed the industry over just got bored and gave it away after there was no working pro to screw over and tell the other parents," No need to buy any photos, mine are just as good and you can have them for free".

I'll bet there are a whole load of things you could have done to " give back" that the school would have elected you do before taking pictures. I'll also guarantee they would have required some real effort and not had the self serving factor you get from taking pictures.


That is the other aspect T&I photos. Parents don't really want the posed picture in front of the goal anymore. They want to see their kid playing. Sure, the posed photos are great for the people that play 5 minutes a season, but the vast majority of people don't want them.

Not at all the mentality where I am.
I do very well from T&I and it's the ONLY way I can make a $ out of sports now.
The other thing is, I could never guarantee a great shot of every kid on the field, especially the less talented ones that are put at the back and might be lucky to get near the ball at all twice a game.
In doing T&I, I have a LOT better chance of making that kid look good and the champion they and the parents want them to be.

I'd suggest that part of the problem you describe has to do with exactly what you said.
If the limit of your creativity and professional skill in this area is standing the kids in front of the goal post like has been done for 50 years instead of something a bit more impressive and with the times using the technology and resources we have now, that's probably 99% the reason you can't sell T&I shots.



Sep 29, 2017 at 12:54 AM
glort
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Sports Photographs for Free


hoytme wrote:
As a manager in a fortune 500 company here is my advice. Stop complaining, if you want to be successful, develop a business plan. Hire a marketing firm, hire a social media expert, re-invent yourself. Make yourself the go to person. I would love to sit and watch a game instead of capturing it. But I want a superior product and a fair price, not free, not cheap, just fair. $90 for one 8x10 IMHO is not a fair price.



Sorry, but that could be one of THE Dumbest arguments I have ever read here.

First you drone on about hiring people to provide "professional" or expert services and then you complain about the price they charge for a superior product that entails the purchase of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and years of practice if not training.

Do you also Bitch that the price of a Ferrari is not fair because you can get a new Camry for a fraction of the cost but you want a "Superior" motor car?
Tell us, in your opinion, how much should that " Superior " photograph be fairly priced at?

What products or services does your company provide and what is the markup they charge on them? Are they top end products or services or do you just import from China or hire labour at the minimum rate you can get it and inflate the price?

I'll bet my arse that I could hire someone else to provide a product or service equal or better than your company provides at a fraction of the price. You would probably argue why your company's product or service is better but the high overheads and corporate fat large company's have is not a compelling reason or benefit to a consumer.
YOU are complaining about the price others charge because you are comparing it to the price of which you can do it yourself but then inferring that's undercutting someone else..... who's price you complain about!



If the product is at the top end of the scale, why should the price not be commensurate with the quality? For a business person to argue a consumer mentality really makes me wonder exactly what you manage in your company? Would not seem to be marketing or anything to do with finances and profitability that's for sure.
Perhaps you were away from business school the years they taught that good quality costs money.

And as for the "Pro" with the kit lens you complain about, who gave her the gig in the first place without checking out her work and experience?
Was it someone on a board or committee in a position such as your wife or maybe yourself? Some decision maker(s) had to give them the nod so in this case where a dilettante was hired that would have been obvious from the start and the results were sub standard, there is someone else fully responsible for that.

I'd put money in line with the high and often over the top commissions these organizations demand from people that a lot of the factor with how such people get the gig is because they offer the most kickbacks. IF and when the decision making process hinges on that which without doubt it does more times than not, then there is no reason for anyone to bitch at them about what they get. Complain to the pelican that gave them the gig in the first place and took the work away from a real pro that would have delivered quality results and kept everyone happy.
I don't spose you or the Mrs took an active part in selecting the next shooter did you or ever have in what you are involved with.


As for your advise about hiring a marketing person and a social media expert, sorry, but that comment alone is so naive and out of touch I can come to no other conclusion that your management position is to do with the facilities or garbage disposal in your company.
You can't change the fundamental beliefs of a market as a small one off operator like a photographer no matter who you hire especially when there are people all around undercutting you or giving work away for free.
That argument is as laughable as the crap some idiot came up with years ago that was perpetuated by the ignorant that photographers should tell clients about the cost of their gear and the years of training and the cost of their software and internet connection and stationary and the amount they spend on aftershave and all the other garbage they went on with to justify their prices and " educate" the clients. The stupidity of that idea was beyond laughable but it was touted as a real solution at the time.

That had about as much chance of changing the customers mind about the value and pricing of a shooters work as does your suggestion of a marketing and SM expert is going to affect the buying behavior of the parents at the local little league field.

I know marketing. You can go back through my posts as long as I have been here and see the limitless times I have raved on how shooters need to have skills in business, marketing and advertising and how fundamentally key they are to any business persons success. I don't look at gear reviews or what some has-been rockstar suggests as the best way to create the prettiest picture ever taken, I spend my time learning exactly what I'm involved with as a shooter, BUSINESS.
I'm an average shooter at best but I'll go head to head any day with winning a gig particularly with an organization or business with anyone that believes it's all about the quality of the work.
If they even think it's about price, they have painfully lost before we start.

I know a lot more about marketing than the average bear and the one thing that knowledge tells me is you do not have a clue what you are talking about and your advise is patently flawed and sadly ignorant. Anyone following it would waste a lot of money and be sadly dissapointed.
The factors at play here are well beyond the control of one person and you could throw a million buck at marketing and promotion and still not change the attitude of the market.
People will always find reasons to do what they want and they want free or cheap more than anything else.

Your own position itself undermines your advise. You on one hand advise people to go out and hire high dollar professionals for a low volume, relatively low return product from a one man business and then bitch about what is a fair price!
As if the investment in time and equipment wasn't enough, you want to add the expenses of experts into the shooters overhead costs and then complain about them not charging "fair" prices?

Exactly what does YOUR business plan calculate a shooter would need to charge in this market for a print so they weren't pissing money up the wall and bleeding red ink faster than their accountant could keep up with?

I'd guarantee that any business plan that was properly executed would tell you that this is a completely non viable business. The competition, risks and threats section of the business plan would spell that out in no uncertain terms.
Maybe a marketing person would be a good idea. They wouldn't even finish the business plan before they told the person they were doing it for to run away, don't walk and therefore save them many thousands in lost time and money not to mention stress and frustration.

Your attitude, complaints and advise are EXACTLY why this market is dead and buried and why it's now virtually impossible for anyone to make a worthwhile return on let alone a decent profit.
Unfortunately, you are far from alone in your thinking.

It would be a great business to make a small fortune in however if you had a large fortune to begin with.





Sep 29, 2017 at 02:09 AM
mikekeating
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Sports Photographs for Free


[]glort wrote[/b

Not at all the mentality where I am.
I do very well from T&I and it's the ONLY way I can make a $ out of sports now.
The other thing is, I could never guarantee a great shot of every kid on the field, especially the less talented ones that are put at the back and might be lucky to get near the ball at all twice a game.
In doing T&I, I have a LOT better chance of making that kid look good and the champion they and the parents want them to be.

I'd suggest that part
...Show more


I don’t do T&I shots. They are boring and parents know if they came from time on the field or not. I am glad you make money at them (seriously, no sarcasm). I have found other ways to get the action shots of the kids that don’t play a lot. It is actually not that hard.

Majority of my business is shooting individual kids at a game (basically I am the photog for the family/athlete that game). Sometimes the whole team. I do give away the photos of the team my daughter plays on (as stated above) and I get work for some of their needs for booklets et al. Plus it is how I practice and try new things. Again, I am not a pro, but I make money at this. My model will not work in every market as yours will not work in every market. You can only charge what people are willing to pay. And (I can’t remember who said it) people will pay for a high quality product. They are not buying the photo, but they are buying the memory / emotion of the event and sometimes it is not the “great action shot”. . .it is the celebration, the tears, the anticipation of the big moment and sometimes it is the “great action shot”.

I enjoy hearing how people have made a market for themselves in their areas this is a rapidly changing environment and the method of shooting, editing and sharing photos are making it easier and easier for more people to take some decent photos . . .and at the same time . . .create a market for the exceptional photos.



Sep 29, 2017 at 03:45 AM
MikalWGrass
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Sports Photographs for Free


MK, people don't want exceptional photos. Take a look around at the photos posted on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. Many are blurry when blown up, but you know what? They look crystal clear and perfectly exposed on a cell phone. Parents don't want exceptional photos, they just want photos that are "good enough" that they can share with their friends.

A few years ago I was photographing a La Liga soccer tournament at one of the local prep schools in Miami. A player's mother asked me if I would take photos of her son. I didn't know if I'd be available to photograph her son's game because I was due at a water polo camp located above the soccer field. Well, it turns out that I had some great photos of her son from another game. He was the goalie, and I had crystal clear shots of her son in action, going after and stopping the ball. When I showed them to her, she told me that she would give me $.85 per photo, which was close to the going rate at CVS or Walgreens. When I voiced my objection, she offered me $3.00 per photo. Instead of going back and forth, I just gave her a few low res photos. She told me that there is a parent who goes to the games and takes pics of the games and later distributes them to the parents. She never thanked me.

Her son's team lost badly anyway.



Sep 29, 2017 at 03:44 PM
hoytme
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Sports Photographs for Free




Edited on Sep 30, 2017 at 11:06 AM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2017 at 04:28 PM
darryn patch
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Sports Photographs for Free


Hoytie

You say you charge $1500 for a few pictures that you retouch and then add 30% to cover your time for editing, are you fair dinkum mate? (thats aussie for you're taking the piss aren't you)

$1500 for a few pics you retouch, I had to read that 3-4 times to ensure I got the context of it correct

And you say your not paying 90 bucks for one 8x10 (which BTW I have never seen any sports photog try and charge, 20 bucks is the going rate)


I've gotta ask

are you on any bi polar meds??



Sep 30, 2017 at 12:26 AM
hoytme
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Sports Photographs for Free




Edited on Sep 30, 2017 at 11:06 AM · View previous versions



Sep 30, 2017 at 01:08 AM
darryn patch
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Sports Photographs for Free


***I usually start at $1500. This get them a few pictures that I retouch plus a few more that are not edited***


then you say they get 20-25 and 200-300 unedited


I'm flummoxed



Sep 30, 2017 at 02:01 AM
1      
2
       3       4       end






FM Forums | Sports Corner | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3       4       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username     Reset password