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Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review
  
 
takowasa
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


lighthound wrote:
One thing that has fascinated me since the day the final 6DII spec's were released is the fact that Canon delivered ALL the upgrades that the current 6D owners wanted in an upgrade.

They wanted more AF points.
They got it.

They wanted AF @ f/8
They got it.

They wanted a flippy screen
They got it.

They wanted a touch screen
They got it.

They wanted more MP
They got it.

They wanted faster fps
They got it.

They wanted ani-flicker
They got it.

They wanted improved video
They got it.

Yes, not all the improvements were of the level some wanted such as 4K video, but we're talking about an entry-level FF rig here
...Show more

"They" wanted a sensor that outperformed the D750 sensor. More specifically, "they" wanted a lower MP version of the 5D4 sensor that was [hopefully] a little better in some respects, like the 6D sensor vs 5D3 sensor.



Sep 21, 2017 at 01:38 AM
RobDickinson
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


I never understood why the 6d got a different sensor to the 5d3 anyhow. happy because it was an improvement if a touch less resolution. But why?

Why develop the 26mp sensor why not use the 30mp?

Product differentiation? They use the same sensors across the crop range... There would still be enough differences.



Sep 21, 2017 at 02:12 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


RobDickinson wrote:
I never understood why the 6d got a different sensor to the 5d3 anyhow. happy because it was an improvement if a touch less resolution. But why?

Why develop the 26mp sensor why not use the 30mp?

Product differentiation? They use the same sensors across the crop range... There would still be enough differences.


Cause you need to spend another $2000 for 4 more megapixels.



Sep 21, 2017 at 02:30 AM
johnctharp
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Remember when talking about DR, we are talking about DR at a specific ISO, such as:

The 6D II has slightly less DR at base ISO.

It has more DR at higher ISOs.

This is similar to a situation with a recent Nikon body replacement: the D5 has less DR at base ISO than the D4s, but has more at higher ISOs.

I have to wonder if the number of people looking for higher ISO performance exceeded the number of people complaining about low ISO performance from Canon's market research perspective.



Sep 21, 2017 at 03:31 AM
RobDickinson
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


yet the 5d4 sensor exceeds it everywhere...


Sep 21, 2017 at 03:39 AM
johnctharp
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


RobDickinson wrote:
yet the 5d4 sensor exceeds it everywhere...


Including price!

(sorry)

I can't pretend to know why Canon didn't do the on-sensor ADC thing that they've done for literally everything else lately, yet kept DPAF. It seems like they were really worried that the 6D II would undermine 5D IV sales, which to a degree would be true, but at the same time those that want better base-ISO performance for less for landscape purposes can instead pick up an A7 II and adapter, or put in a little more effort for a used 24MP Nikon setup, or even 36MP, now that the D850 is depreciating the whole lineup. Both good options depending on what lenses you use and what else you do with your camera.



Sep 21, 2017 at 04:00 AM
D.Hussey
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Mikehit wrote:
One critique I repeatedly hear about Canon is the colour fidelity of their sensor is better than Nikon and much better than Sony, especially on skin tones. It seems the 6D2 has improved that even further.
One thing that has become patently clear is the compromises involved in sensor design and I have no idea how colour fidelity relates to DR in that regard (is it a case of 'either/or'?) but I can easily believe improved DR is a play-off to colour fidelity - if it isn't why do Sony not have a high-DR sensor that also shows high colour
...Show more

Thanks for elaborating!

I can't say one way or the other but what you say makes a lot of sense. All design is a matter of compromising, otherwise we'd all be driving a Ferrari priced like a Yugo. I suspect you might have hit on one such compromise at play here and while for some DR might be everything that does not make it the Holy Grail of camra performance



Sep 21, 2017 at 04:39 AM
Isaacheus
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Unfortunately, all the charts I have found seem to show that it has worse Dr at case iso, and only matches the 6d original at the higher settings. Also, the high iso noise seems to be a tad worse from some of the reviews I've seen? If anything, I haven't seen any real improvement in dynamic range or noise iq from the reviews I've checked.

johnctharp wrote:
Remember when talking about DR, we are talking about DR at a specific ISO, such as:

The 6D II has slightly less DR at base ISO.

It has more DR at higher ISOs.

This is similar to a situation with a recent Nikon body replacement: the D5 has less DR at base ISO than the D4s, but has more at higher ISOs.

I have to wonder if the number of people looking for higher ISO performance exceeded the number of people complaining about low ISO performance from Canon's market research perspective.




Sep 21, 2017 at 06:01 AM
Paul Mo
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review




johnctharp wrote:
Remember when talking about DR, we are talking about DR at a specific ISO, such as:

The 6D II has slightly less DR at base ISO.

It has more DR at higher ISOs.

This is similar to a situation with a recent Nikon body replacement: the D5 has less DR at base ISO than the D4s, but has more at higher ISOs.

I have to wonder if the number of people looking for higher ISO performance exceeded the number of people complaining about low ISO performance from Canon's market research perspective.



These are pro cameras - the D4 and D5 - in town at a dimly lit courthouse, or at the stadium when it's a bit cloudy, or on assignment covering protests that go into the night, high ISOs are their raison d'Ítre*.



*Yes, yes, burst rates, stamina, weather sealing.



Sep 21, 2017 at 06:05 AM
Desbris
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


I shot with it for a day as I wanted to know whether it would be worth buying one. It's a decent camera, but it is nothing special in any area and that is the problem. It really is just a full frame 80D, so lazy from Canon.

Canon didn't want to lose any sales from the 5D IV, that is evident. I definitely will not be buying one. So now I am debating, wait for the 5DSR II or switch to the all round powerhouse of the new D850. My friend has the D850 so every chance I get I have a go with it, absolutely fantastic camera makes me very jealous but that would mean I need to do a switch. I have 8 canon lenses and i do love some of them. 5D IV is very good but it definitely is no D850, and I fear the 5DSR II will be a disappointment.



Sep 21, 2017 at 06:28 AM
 

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Mikehit
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


jorkata wrote:
In simple terms, dynamic range is the ratio between the highest signal and the noise floor.
The noise floor in modern sensors is determined mostly by the analog-to-digital conversion (ADC).
As with older Canon sensors, the 6DII has a lower dynamic range vs the competition (and newer Canon sensors) due to high noise floor - which in turn is caused by the use of off-sensor ADCs.

Color response, OTOH, is determined by the color filters that are mounted on top of the sensor's (color blind) photo-diodes.

So, in general, dynamic range and color sensitivity are not related.
(Well, unless you put an
...Show more

I can't argue on a technical level, but if what you say is true why do Sony seem to be commonly criticised for their poor colour fidelity compared to Canon. if they are so much better and knowledgeable than Canon about sensor design, surely they could (should?) have fixed this.



Sep 21, 2017 at 07:28 AM
alundeb
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Mikehit wrote:
I can't argue on a technical level, but if what you say is true why do Sony seem to be commonly criticised for their poor colour fidelity compared to Canon. if they are so much better and knowledgeable than Canon about sensor design, surely they could (should?) have fixed this.


It is not universally accepted as a fact that Sony sensors have poor color fidelity. I have it from Joakim Bengtsson that Canon have tuned their color sensitivity to be able to separate skin tones better, while Sony have tuned theirs to be able to separate green tones better.
On the Sony boards, you will hear that Sony colors are far superior to Canon colors in any case.



Sep 21, 2017 at 07:42 AM
johnctharp
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Desbris wrote:
I shot with it for a day as I wanted to know whether it would be worth buying one. It's a decent camera, but it is nothing special in any area and that is the problem. It really is just a full frame 80D, so lazy from Canon.


When Canon came out with the 70D right after the 6D, many said, "can we have a full-frame 70D?"

And that's essentially what the 6D II is.

[if it were a 'full-frame 80D', it'd have the base ISO performance of the 5D IV...]

---------------------------------------------

Mikehit wrote:
I can't argue on a technical level, but if what you say is true why do Sony seem to be commonly criticised for their poor colour fidelity compared to Canon. if they are so much better and knowledgeable than Canon about sensor design, surely they could (should?) have fixed this.


Basically everyone that uses Sony sensors (including Canon!) gets better 'color' out of them than Sony does. Nikon probably does the best, and they've sourced their DSLR sensors from all over.

I think that this is half color filter array, and half color science applied to processing. So, the criticism you're referencing isn't really 'poor color fidelity' compared to Canon as much as it is simply 'Sony color'. Some actually prefer it; some prefer Nikon, Canon, Fuji, etc, and those that work with color managed pipelines know that the difference is in the processing .




Sep 21, 2017 at 08:08 AM
Desbris
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


johnctharp wrote:
When Canon came out with the 70D right after the 6D, many said, "can we have a full-frame 70D?"

And that's essentially what the 6D II is.

[if it were a 'full-frame 80D', it'd have the base ISO performance of the 5D IV...]



---------------------------------------------

They deliberately held back on the 6D II.

They have no problem with bringing out "a decent" camera, which is frustrating as a primary Canon shooter myself. Other manufacturers are really trying to push the boundaries, take the new Nikon D850 for example for DSLR's.

Canon just rely on their "loyal" followers and they know it, which is the majority of them. If it weren't such a nightmare to switch over fully, I would've done it by now.



Sep 21, 2017 at 10:40 AM
memoria
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


snapsy wrote:
The 6DM2's metamerism scores are significantly higher vs the 6D. 85 vs 69 for natural light and 79 vs 70 for tungsten. Color selectively was modestly improved as well.


Doesn't surprise me. One of the first things I noticed when I got my 6D2 was the overall excellent color reproduction. It's equally "vivid" as the 6D but has fewer color cast problems in shadow and highlight areas. The 6D could get a bit blue/magenta-ish even in daylight. The 6D2 is cleaner (but not perfect)



Sep 21, 2017 at 10:44 AM
GC5
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


Desbris wrote:
---------------------------------------------

They deliberately held back on the 6D II.

They have no problem with bringing out "a decent" camera, which is frustrating as a primary Canon shooter myself. Other manufacturers are really trying to push the boundaries, take the new Nikon D850 for example for DSLR's.

Canon just rely on their "loyal" followers and they know it, which is the majority of them. If it weren't such a nightmare to switch over fully, I would've done it by now.


I contemplated switching to last year, but vastly preferred my Canon gear to Nikon, even if the Nikon had superior specs in many instances.



Sep 21, 2017 at 02:07 PM
Desbris
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


GC5 wrote:
I contemplated switching to last year, but vastly preferred my Canon gear to Nikon, even if the Nikon had superior specs in many instances.



Since I have been having a go with a friends D850 when he isn't using it, I am just surprised at how good it really is, and I have shot with it once for a full day. There is a reason many reviewers are saying it is the best DSLR to date, impossible to argue when you have used it.

But again, I really cannot be bothered to switch systems.



Sep 21, 2017 at 02:18 PM
MintMar
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


At least we can all agree I think that 6D -> 6D2 was a better upgrade than 20D -> 30D


Sep 21, 2017 at 02:22 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


RobDickinson wrote:
AFIk the 850 sensor is not a sony product.


It's a Nikon design, fabbed by Sony.

This is my reply in the relevant thread on the Nikon forum but for convenience sake I will copy it here:


So far, all evidence points to Sony.

- It physically looks like a Sony sensor which is distinct compared to other brands. The packaging, layout, column parallel ADCs, and orientation of electronics look like a Sony EXMOR R.

- It is a dual gain sensor which is the product of a patent share between Sony and Aptina.

- It's BSI and nobody else is making large scale BSI FF sensors except Sony

- Nikon has a long history with using Sony, especially for it's higher MP cameras. By now, Nikon is very familiar with the Sony 'tool box' and they know exactly what they have to work with when designing a sensor. Even though it's Nikon designed, the go-to basics of what works best are likely a constant no matter who is making it.

- It once again has class leading performance, which so far is an area only Sony has been able to continue to dominate, presumably due to the fact that they pour way more R&D into sensors than anyone else. In particular, nobody else has even come close to the low ISO DR Sony gets out of their column ADCs. The chances of someone else being able to in a single try, match or surpass the culmination of Sony's sensor expertise and copy their exclusive technologies is so low, that to me that is perhaps the most likely reason it is Sony.

So if you add up all the evidence, IMO it is extremely likely that it is a Sony sensor, either by Sony directly or on the old Toshiba production line that Sony owns (but I don't think that one does BSI unless they changed it recently). If someone else is making it, they sure did a good job of copying Sony down to the last detail, and to match Sony's typical sensor performance on a first try would also be extremely unlikely.

We'll see when Tech Insights (formerly Chipworks) releases their report, but I will be shocked if it is not a Sony fab.



Sep 21, 2017 at 03:49 PM
Flowernut
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Canon 6D Mark II DXOMark Sensor Review


best I can figure out, the 6DII performance should be about that of the 5D3 in the real world.


Sep 21, 2017 at 04:02 PM
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