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The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!
  
 
genji
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p.24 #1 · p.24 #1 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:
Nice post Phillipe.

There's a tendency, not to much in evidence among FM members but which occasionally appears to think that there are two kinds of lenses AWESOME and SH*T; where AWESOME means you want it and SH*T means you don't.

Whereas the reality is that we all have constraints: habit, money, time, taste - that variously affect what kind of lens works for u.

I'm super impressed by the Milvus 35 from it's MTF and samples. The MTF looks like a super tele by f4. That could only be if it was largely free of LoCA and astigmatism and SA. It's optically
...Show more

Thank you for this measured response to a post that I might have expected to see on DPReview but certainly not on FredMiranda.com. How ironic (and unfortunate) that the arrogance and condescension were directed towards Philippe, who is unfailingly courteous, generous, and supportive in his interactions with other FM members.



Oct 09, 2017 at 11:19 AM
DavidBM
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p.24 #2 · p.24 #2 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Jannik Peters wrote:
Great sample, David!

Actually, it looks quite good, especially the background blur. Chromatic aberrations are also less pronounced than expected. The strong outlining towards the edges is a bit strange (right part of the image background).

The weak spot is the transition zone, that looks rather nervous. Nevertheless, most lenses are more than less problematic there.

I think this is overall better than expected.


Thanks Jannik
Yes that area to the right is very close to the image plane, so as you say the transition zone is the weak spot.
And one issue with this image I realize now is that if itís not your garden, itís hard to know exactly how far behind the plane of focus each element is!



Oct 09, 2017 at 11:37 AM
DavidBM
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p.24 #3 · p.24 #3 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


genji wrote:
Thank you for this measured response to a post that I might have expected to see on DPReview but certainly not on FredMiranda.com. How ironic (and unfortunate) that the arrogance and condescension were directed towards Philippe, who is unfailingly courteous, generous, and supportive in his interactions with other FM members.


Thanks Jonathon.
Measured - maybe, proof read I now see - not!



Oct 09, 2017 at 11:38 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.24 #4 · p.24 #4 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


davewolfs wrote:
Can we get some samples posted 😁


As a matter of fact, yes

I took a lot of photos today with my A7r and my Nokton 40/1.2 as we had a national holiday and the weather was good. I mainly focused on using f4 for cityscapes and street to confirm that it works well for me from corner to corner at that setting (even when focusing centrally), and f2 and f1.7 for some close-up bokeh shots as until now I had mainly used f1.2 for those.

I put 100 OOC JPEGs with this combo here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7kTuUK6qey3U3iJq2

I'm perfectly happy with corner-to-corner at f4 based on today's results on A7r. When shooting cityscapes I focused based on maximum peaking level at central region, sometimes confirming the focus by magnification, often not. That way the ideal infinity focus point with my lens is somewhere within the first loop of the infinity symbol.

All 3 camera side Lens compensation settings were set to Auto so there will be some auto-corrections applied e.g. for vignetting, CA etc. If somebody wants to see some of the RAWs, please tell me which ones and then I can provide them.



Oct 09, 2017 at 12:00 PM
philber
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p.24 #5 · p.24 #5 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Jonathon, David, thanks for the kind words!
Juha, thanks for the effort! Actually, your shots show the lens in a good way. Tokyo mid-day light is not the kindest, and shooting JPEG doesn't help, yet the shots look good. Plenty of 3D (to my taste at least), very good centre sharpness, a sweet spot from f:2.0 to f:4.0 ( I seem to prefer f:2.0 to f:1.7), which is consistent with the better f:1.4 lenses. Transition from in-focus to out-of-focus seems quiet brief, with substantial background blur. The effect is not unlike my Sony 85 GM, with its pluses and minuses.
Overall, for the size and cost, a good compromise for many people, I am sure.



Oct 09, 2017 at 01:22 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.24 #6 · p.24 #6 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


philber wrote:
Jonathon, David, thanks for the kind words!
Juha, thanks for the effort! Actually, your shots show the lens in a good way. Tokyo mid-day light is not the kindest, and shooting JPEG doesn't help, yet the shots look good. Plenty of 3D (to my taste at least), very good centre sharpness, a sweet spot from f:2.0 to f:4.0 ( I seem to prefer f:2.0 to f:1.7), which is consistent with the better f:1.4 lenses. Transition from in-focus to out-of-focus seems quiet brief, with substantial background blur. The effect is not unlike my Sony 85 GM, with its pluses and minuses.
Overall, for
...Show more

Thanks very much, Philippe! Yes, the light was a bit hard and there was a bit of haze but I was pretty happy with the weather (26 C or so and I could switch back to shorts and t-shirt). During winter the light should get better for photography as the air is often very clear then.

I really like this new Nokton for my purposes, and I also have the 85 GM My plan is to use the Nokton at f4 for daylight city shooting and at f2.8 for low light city and close-ups can be anything from f1.2 to f2 depending on how much sharpness and blur is desired.



Oct 09, 2017 at 01:43 PM
Jonas B
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p.24 #7 · p.24 #7 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


genji wrote:

(...) How ironic (and unfortunate) that the arrogance and condescension were directed towards Philippe, who is unfailingly courteous, generous, and supportive in his interactions with other FM members.


Yes, that was partly ironic. However, irony is part of life and I'm sure Philippe handles it without a problem. A couple of years ago I met Philippe, together with a few more great FM-forum users, in Berlin. We all had different gear, different ideas and different opinions. We also had a good time. Laughing at a preference.... well. It happens when we are anonymous.



Oct 09, 2017 at 02:19 PM
nampramos
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p.24 #8 · p.24 #8 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Juha, thank you for all the samples!

A very calm day in Tokyo, where's all the people?

I'm hoping to spend 2 weeks in Tokyo next month to photograph the autumn colors. I've been searching for some good flights the last few days. Maybe we meet each other and go for a photo walk



Oct 09, 2017 at 02:24 PM
Jonas B
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p.24 #9 · p.24 #9 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:

Review updated with bokeh at 3 metres; an aperture series from f1.2-f8(...)


Thank you David!

I think the lens passed.

The images in the review are quite small (are they available larger somewhere?) and not easy to judge fairly. I used the browser's enlargement function which isn't optimal. In my opinion the bokeh is a bit harsh, referring to the 3 meter test with the background foliage at varying distances and aperture openings larger than f/2. Stopping down further, to f/2.8, helped. The problems I noticed is to the right when looking at twigs and highlights. They showed some double lining and harsh outer rings.

But the overall impression I got, this far, is good.

I'm more upset by the ugly sensor reflections (easily seen, and that already from f/4) in the flare test. Is that how the A7R MkII always is?

/Jonas



Oct 09, 2017 at 02:28 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.24 #10 · p.24 #10 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


nampramos wrote:
Juha, thank you for all the samples!

A very calm day in Tokyo, where's all the people?

I'm hoping to spend 2 weeks in Tokyo next month to photograph the autumn colors. I've been searching for some good flights the last few days. Maybe we meet each other and go for a photo walk


Thanks! I didn't take photos towards the crowds at the most crowded places There were many people at Roppongi Hills as usual but then I was mostly shooting the tall buildings.

I hope your travel plan includes some treks away from Tokyo as I think there's not so much great autumn color action within the city itself. For example Mount Takao and Hakone etc. would be much better at the right timing.

Anyway, it should probably be possible to meet up on some weekend during your stay in Tokyo and take a walk somewhere



Oct 09, 2017 at 03:05 PM
 

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sebboh
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p.24 #11 · p.24 #11 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Juha Kannisto wrote:
As a matter of fact, yes

I took a lot of photos today with my A7r and my Nokton 40/1.2 as we had a national holiday and the weather was good. I mainly focused on using f4 for cityscapes and street to confirm that it works well for me from corner to corner at that setting (even when focusing centrally), and f2 and f1.7 for some close-up bokeh shots as until now I had mainly used f1.2 for those.

I put 100 OOC JPEGs with this combo here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7kTuUK6qey3U3iJq2

I'm perfectly happy with corner-to-corner at f4 based on today's results on A7r.
...Show more

thanks! looks plenty sharp for street/landscape to my eye.

Jonas B wrote:
The images in the review are quite small (are they available larger somewhere?) and not easy to judge fairly. I used the browser's enlargement function which isn't optimal.


+1

this looks very good to me. seems to have the usual problem i have with voigtlanders Ė too much contrast in the bokeh. it also has a fair bit of spherochromatism and bokeh squares towards the corner, but pretty well controlled for an f/1.2 lens. i guess the only thing i still want to see is some more wide open environmental portraits.

i just need to wait for guy or fred to buy it and shoot it for a few weeks then i can pick it up used from them...




Oct 09, 2017 at 06:44 PM
DavidBM
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p.24 #12 · p.24 #12 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Jonas B wrote:
DavidBM wrote:
Thank you David!

I think the lens passed.

The images in the review are quite small (are they available larger somewhere?) and not easy to judge fairly. I used the browser's enlargement function which isn't optimal. In my opinion the bokeh is a bit harsh, referring to the 3 meter test with the background foliage at varying distances and aperture openings larger than f/2. Stopping down further, to f/2.8, helped. The problems I noticed is to the right when looking at twigs and highlights. They showed some double lining and harsh outer rings.

But the overall impression I got, this far,
...Show more

I'll link to full size samples when the review is complete.
Thos twigs that are harsh are right behind close to the focus plane. So the sore spot for bokeh on this lens, as with many lenses is the following combination: subject at 3-4 metres, OOF objects close to subject in transition zone.

The sensor reflections? They aren't always there with the A7rII, and they are much less systematic on it than the A7, but yes they do sometimes come up, often around sunstars and very bright specular highlinghts, especially stopped down. But I don't know that many other digital cameras are immune. The lens affects it: the exact angle of the element to reflect back the sensor matters, so it's partly a lens issue.



Oct 09, 2017 at 10:39 PM
DavidBM
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p.24 #13 · p.24 #13 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Another update to my review: this time to figure out what focussing position is best for across the frame infinity sharpness at f8.

I confirm the earlier finding that focus on the centre gives best results in the centre, but at the cost of poorer corners. And focussing on the corners gives the best corners, but a less good centre.

Focussing on the outer midfield give a centre almost as good as focussing on the centre, and corners almost as good as focussing on the corner.

There are some small crops showing this behaviour.

And just a note to you all: these differences are visible at 100%; less so at 50% and therefore a bit less so on a 24MP and certainly 12MP sensor. And you can only detect them with crops, and focussing by eye and bracketing. The differences in the position of the ring are very hard to see.

(I realise I wrote something earlier which gave the wrong impression: I meant to say that the best results in the centre are towards the 5m mark - it being the next mark - but I think I may have said that it is *near* the 5m mark, which gives the wrong impression!)



Oct 10, 2017 at 08:53 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.24 #14 · p.24 #14 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:
Another update to my review: this time to figure out what focussing position is best for across the frame infinity sharpness at f8.

I confirm the earlier finding that focus on the centre gives best results in the centre, but at the cost of poorer corners. And focussing on the corners gives the best corners, but a less good centre.

Focussing on the outer midfield give a centre almost as good as focussing on the centre, and corners almost as good as focussing on the corner.

There are some small crops showing this behaviour.

And just a note to you all: these differences are
...Show more

Thanks for the updates!

At least I got the impression from your earlier description that it was close to 5m mark for center and close to hard infinity for corners and that seemed very different from my lens. Your treetop crops in the review may also make the differences look more dramatic than e.g. the buildings that I was testing with since the trees can easily look less clearly defined and with the buildings the differences may be much less dramatic.

If the difference in optimal focusing positions for center and corner in your case is also very difficult to see by looking at the focusing ring's markings, and if the image differences can only be seen when viewing crops at 100%, then it might be that our lenses are pretty similar after all. I think the new additions to the review are very good and useful for clarifying this point.

Without these additions it was somehow easy to get an understanding from the review that it always requires stopping down a lot and somewhat complex focusing strategies to get good corner-to-corner sharpness but it seems to be quantified much better now.



Oct 10, 2017 at 10:15 AM
DavidBM
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p.24 #15 · p.24 #15 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


Juha Kannisto wrote:
Thanks for the updates!

At least I got the impression from your earlier description that it was close to 5m mark for center and close to hard infinity for corners and that seemed very different from my lens. Your treetop crops in the review may also make the differences look more dramatic than e.g. the buildings that I was testing with since the trees can easily look less clearly defined and with the buildings the differences may be much less dramatic.

If the difference in optimal focusing positions for center and corner in your case is also very difficult to
...Show more

Yes words are not always the best are they for describing these things "dramatic" "large difference" etc...
But the crops speak for themselves. And yes I use foliage at infinity, inspired by Jim Kasson: it's almost as though our perceptual systems are evolved to detect differences in sharpness of foliage.

But I should clarify my clarification: I said the differences were subtle, only obvious at 100% etc in the context of getting good overall sharpness at f8. That's not so at wide apertures, where the differences are easy to see at 50%; I"m not sure how that compares with your copy.




Oct 10, 2017 at 10:33 AM
Jonas B
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p.24 #16 · p.24 #16 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:

I'll link to full size samples when the review is complete.
Thos twigs that are harsh are right behind close to the focus plane. So the sore spot for bokeh on this lens, as with many lenses is the following combination: subject at 3-4 metres, OOF objects close to subject in transition zone.

The sensor reflections? They aren't always there with the A7rII, and they are much less systematic on it than the A7, but yes they do sometimes come up, often around sunstars and very bright specular highlinghts, especially stopped down. But I don't know that many other digital cameras are immune.
...Show more

Thank you David.

I hoped the harsh rendering was from something close to the focus plane.
On the sensor reflections: I have been able to make such with all digital cameras i have owned. But not at f/4 or f/5.6 against a relatively bright background. I'll look around for more samples.



Oct 10, 2017 at 03:19 PM
freaklikeme
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p.24 #17 · p.24 #17 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:
Another update to my review: this time to figure out what focussing position is best for across the frame infinity sharpness at f8.

I confirm the earlier finding that focus on the centre gives best results in the centre, but at the cost of poorer corners. And focussing on the corners gives the best corners, but a less good centre.

Focussing on the outer midfield give a centre almost as good as focussing on the centre, and corners almost as good as focussing on the corner.

There are some small crops showing this behaviour.

And just a note to you all: these differences are
...Show more

Curious. I wonder if this lens would perform better on a Kolari modded camera or with a PCX solution.

Thanks for the review, by the way. It's been excellent reading. It would be interesting to see this lens compared to an nFD 50L and plain MD 50/1.2. Those would be my pick of the fast classics to give this one a run for its money.



Oct 11, 2017 at 04:26 AM
DavidBM
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p.24 #18 · p.24 #18 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


freaklikeme wrote:
Curious. I wonder if this lens would perform better on a Kolari modded camera or with a PCX solution.

Thanks for the review, by the way. It's been excellent reading. It would be interesting to see this lens compared to an nFD 50L and plain MD 50/1.2. Those would be my pick of the fast classics to give this one a run for its money.


I think the Kolari mod would make it extreme the other way, but I'm not sure. And the FC is mild enough - and, I think, sufficiently confined to the edges, that it would be hard to fix with a spherical profile PCX lens.

But don't make too much of it! It's exactly as bad as the crops show, at 100% and 42MP. And midfield focussing (like on the Loxia 21) pretty much fixes it for practical purposes. Which isn't true of lenses for the M stack that need PCX lens.



Oct 11, 2017 at 05:05 AM
DavidBM
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p.24 #19 · p.24 #19 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


DavidBM wrote:
I think the Kolari mod would make it extreme the other way, but I'm not sure. And the FC is mild enough - and, I think, sufficiently confined to the edges, that it would be hard to fix with a spherical profile PCX lens.

But don't make too much of it! It's exactly as bad as the crops show, at 100% and 42MP. And midfield focussing (like on the Loxia 21) pretty much fixes it for practical purposes. Which isn't true of lenses for the M stack that need PCX lens.


As for comparison with classic 1.2/50s: I haven't used them all, my own preference is for the OM50 (not 55) but I've tried a few others - including the EF Canon. I hate saying stuff without proof; but it seems to me that this little lens has better, less hazy performance at wide apertures, more contrast, and bokeh is up the with the best of them. (modulo situations in which you get onion rings). But the ashperes that cause the onion rings buy you a lot of goodness in situations where there aren't any onion rings!



Oct 11, 2017 at 05:08 AM
sebboh
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p.24 #20 · p.24 #20 · The Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 FE is coming!


freaklikeme wrote:
Curious. I wonder if this lens would perform better on a Kolari modded camera or with a PCX solution.


doesn't the field curvature go the opposite way of the m-mount lenses?

freaklikeme wrote:
Thanks for the review, by the way. It's been excellent reading. It would be interesting to see this lens compared to an nFD 50L and plain MD 50/1.2. Those would be my pick of the fast classics to give this one a run for its money.


how are you liking the MD 50/1.2?

DavidBM wrote:
As for comparison with classic 1.2/50s: I haven't used them all, my own preference is for the OM50 (not 55) but I've tried a few others - including the EF Canon. I hate saying stuff without proof; but it seems to me that this little lens has better, less hazy performance at wide apertures, more contrast, and bokeh is up the with the best of them. (modulo situations in which you get onion rings). But the ashperes that cause the onion rings buy you a lot of goodness in situations where there aren't any onion rings!


it certainly seems less hazy on focus than most classic f/1.2 lenses, that doesn't necessarily translate into greater resolving power though. for some lenses there can be very high resolution through the haze while others have neither sharpness nor contrast. unfortunately, it also has less haze in the oof region by the looks of it, which translates into a higher contrast bokeh. the more even correction of SA should make bokeh smoother than most f/1.2 lenses though...



Oct 11, 2017 at 05:24 AM
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