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Archive 2017 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation

  
 
alundeb
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


scott f wrote:
That was my point, shadows and high ISO performance are quite different on those cameras.


And my point was that it seems that Canon's innovations or class leading properties don't count as long as you can find anything that is not perfect with the camera, and the same standard doesn't seem to apply for for Sony.



Sep 14, 2017 at 12:58 PM
ggreene
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


gdanmitchell wrote:
That doesn't remotely mean that the camera industry will "die," but it certainly cannot sustain the unnatural rate of growth of the past decade and a half.


If you look at this chart the market is back to the late 80's for volume. Only time will tell where it bottoms out at. Given the amount of resources devoted to cell phones and by extension cell phone cameras I think the dedicated camera makers will be lucky to retain 1970's volume.

When you think about the resources needed to push tech further and further and the fewer and fewer people buying dedicated cameras, it's going to get very expensive.

Camera Market Through the Years



Sep 14, 2017 at 12:59 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
I agreed with most of the article but to me that pricing complaint was also the most obvious flaw, especially coming from Australia. However, there is something fishy with Canon pricing outside the US as price changes in most areas outside the US are MUCH bigger than the exchange rate difference (or VAT changes) warrants.


The way I understand it the different prices are at least in part because of different costs in operating in the different markets. EU have strict consumer protection laws which in turn lead to the manufacturer service costs being higher. Then there are the cost of labour and taxes. But, you get free education and almost free health care, and inexpensive day care in many countries in the EU, in return for those taxes being paid.

I'm not a Canon user but I don't think the article seemed very accurate nor fair. Canon have made many clever and useful inventions that have practical value. However, Canon do not give features cheap in their cameras. I think the video market is not particularly happy with Canon's feature decisions.

Edited on Sep 14, 2017 at 01:21 PM · View previous versions



Sep 14, 2017 at 01:08 PM
molson
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


snapsy wrote:
Agreed. And it may in fact be what Nikon was forced to do with the D850, where they basically threw the entire kitchen sink into the body, risking sales of their more expensive flagship D5. Perhaps Nikon is in a more precarious position than Canon considering the bulk of Nikon's revenue is photography equipment and the bulk of that is in their prosumer bodies, whereas Canon is more diversified both in their cameras (for example, success in APS-C MILCs), and their business overall.


I think the D850 is a bit of a "Hail Mary" effort from Nikon, hoping to keep their camera division afloat for a little longer. I was recently in conversation with the owner of one of the largest camera stores in Canada, and he noted that while Canon, Fuji, Sony, and Panasonic have all been selling well this year, Nikon sales have been pretty much dead in the water until the D850 was announced.



Sep 14, 2017 at 01:18 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Poor sales of Nikon equipment have been partly because many people have been waiting for the D810's successor and it was expected in summer 2016; instead Nikon unexpectedly made the D500. The D8x0 is the product where they put in their best effort, and this was never more apparent than in the D850. In general the majority of camera bodies are sold in the first months after introduction so there was not many D5's that Nikon could have expected to sell one year and a half after it was introduced. The professional sports photography market is tanking and pros are leaving the field as there are lots of amateur photographers who are willing to give away pics for access. The D5 is made for a quite narrowly defined market with special needs. The connectivity features and voice memo that a professional sports photographer would need are not built into the D850. The burst depth isn't comparable, either, though it is quite good for a high resolution camera thanks to the support of advanced memory cards. For most regular people who are not shooting the Olympics, the D850 is a better choice as a do-it-all camera body, but it's significantly more expensive than its predecessor in the EU market so even if it eats sales of the other bodies, Nikon will do well from it. Furthermore as a high resolution camera it helps to promote and sell high end lenses as well.

Nikon had a really bad 2016. Snapbridge is generally getting awful reviews and so is Keymission. DL never made it to the market. It's not surprising their sales were down given this series of mishaps. Nikon's new lenses and the D5/D500/D850 are excellent though and I think their sales will recover, but their focus is now on the mid to high end and fewer products for the consumer market.




Sep 14, 2017 at 01:50 PM
dtolios
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


molson wrote:
I think the D850 is a bit of a "Hail Mary" effort from Nikon, hoping to keep their camera division afloat for a little longer. I was recently in conversation with the owner of one of the largest camera stores in Canada, and he noted that while Canon, Fuji, Sony, and Panasonic have all been selling well this year, Nikon sales have been pretty much dead in the water until the D850 was announced.


Yes, this is my guess too, and that is the case with Sony to an extent.
In a nutshell, both companies go above and beyond to steal marketshare from Canon. Sony's approach is the "blank slate MILC look it is (was) smaller" and a very aggressive line refresh schedule, Nikon's is presenting some of the most impressive DSLRs we've seen for ages: D500, D5, now D850.

It is working, but apparently not well-enough to discomfort Canon to do the same, and they remain on their slow(ish) refresh cycles and insist on incremental upgrades. Their recipe is winning so far, so why change it?.
Sale figures in the real world are not the same as in enthusiast communities.




Sep 14, 2017 at 01:53 PM
brian_sp
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


molson wrote:
I think the D850 is a bit of a "Hail Mary" effort from Nikon, hoping to keep their camera division afloat for a little longer. I was recently in conversation with the owner of one of the largest camera stores in Canada, and he noted that while Canon, Fuji, Sony, and Panasonic have all been selling well this year, Nikon sales have been pretty much dead in the water until the D850 was announced.



and we are suppose to believe you or anything you have to say because
because you are a canon fanboi?




Sep 14, 2017 at 02:34 PM
scott f
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


alundeb wrote:
And my point was that it seems that Canon's innovations or class leading properties don't count as long as you can find anything that is not perfect with the camera, and the same standard doesn't seem to apply for for Sony.


I think you're being a bit oversensitive. There's lots of criticism for both. If you look at the early reviews of the 5Ds/r, or even recent reviews, they all praise the resolution, just not the overall sensor performance. Beyond the resolution what was class leading or innovative about Canons offerings?



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:58 PM
RobDickinson
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


I give sony endless stick on ergonomics and UI. The menu system is a total joke.
The a7r2 ergonomics is much improved though, the build is still laughable for such an expensive camera



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:09 PM
scott f
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


ilkka_nissila wrote:
Poor sales of Nikon equipment have been partly because many people have been waiting for the D810's successor and it was expected in summer 2016; instead Nikon unexpectedly made the D500. The D8x0 is the product where they put in their best effort, and this was never more apparent than in the D850. In general the majority of camera bodies are sold in the first months after introduction so there was not many D5's that Nikon could have expected to sell one year and a half after it was introduced. The professional sports photography market is tanking and pros are
...Show more

I find Nikon to be perplexing. From tests and user reports , their sensors and autofocus are top notch, and yet the company seems to be struggling. Maybe it's the result of the quality control issues they have suffered with several bodies over the last year, I don't know. But they have a great product lineup and aren't connecting. Maybe it's just the overall state of the market, but it does seem strange to me that they aren't doing better. Bad marketing and bad management I guess?



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:11 PM
azenis
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


I was never really a Canon user except when I got a 5D MKIII/6D/1DsII some time along my equipment trading time, but the way I see it, it isn't much different than the reason I went from a Nikon shooter to Sony.

Sony brought us a totally different perspective to photography. Before A7S, who thought a usable 100k (or even 200k) iso image was actually possible in the reach of consumer gear?

In the age of digital imaging and computer processing, optical design and manufacturing are now less important.

It used to be only a handful of companies capable of designing lenses because the expertise it required. Now optical designs can be done fully on a computer and designers can actually "see" the performance of any particular design before a gram of silica is even touched. So even low volume manufacturers can afford the R&D on optical design.

IMHO, Canon should re-think how they can keep up with Sony in sensor design and manufacturing.

Sony is basically using small imaging sensors used by phones and other electronics to share their pro sensor R&D and that is working great. It's the leader in that industry, bar none.

Maybe even crazy ideas like getting out of sensor design altogether isn't too far-fetched. Because it's only a matter of time Sony perfects its camera design and introduce all the big teles to take on where Canon really shines.



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:29 PM
splathrop
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Recent Canon innovations that would notably improve my work, or already have improved it:

1. Whatever bag of optical tricks they applied to the 35mm II. Do more of that.

2. The three new TS-E lenses. Years ago, I wrote a comment asking for exactly those, plus a 70mm TS-E which they did not announce. All three will make a notable difference in the seascapes I make. I can't wait. Now give me that 70mm TS-E, please.

3. The image quality improvements built into the 400mm DO II. And not just image quality, but usability for older photographers, compared to the heavier super-telephotos.

Sure, I think Canon could give me more. But they already meet my needs better than their competitors can, and Canon does keep adding improvements. The ones I listed are not trivial. I doubt any competitor offers any body which can make as much visible difference in an image as the three I listed.



Edited on Sep 14, 2017 at 03:48 PM · View previous versions



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:46 PM
technic
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


ilkka_nissila wrote:
The way I understand it the different prices are at least in part because of different costs in operating in the different markets. EU have strict consumer protection laws which in turn lead to the manufacturer service costs being higher. Then there are the cost of labour and taxes. But, you get free education and almost free health care, and inexpensive day care in many countries in the EU, in return for those taxes being paid.


Healthcare in my country is almost as expensive as in the US. Our healthcare insurance premiums are much lower but that's only because 80-90% of the healthcare money comes from taxes, and not from mandatory insurance. And it isn't 'free' at all, unless you are a migrant or someone living completely from government money like social security. Education, day care: same story; it's only free if you have no money left (or pretend to have no money), otherwise it is usually a complete rip-off.

I don't believe the story about consumer protection laws making products expensive in EU, in fact some practices in the US make their market for more expensive for manufacturers (e.g. the extremely liberal product return policies compare to the EU). The tax differences I already took into account. I worked for a long time in development, production, sales and distribution of this kind of equipment (including some years as Canon OEM); I have a pretty good idea about price structure and how it differs around the world ;-(



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:47 PM
technic
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


scott f wrote:
I find Nikon to be perplexing. From tests and user reports , their sensors and autofocus are top notch, and yet the company seems to be struggling. Maybe it's the result of the quality control issues they have suffered with several bodies over the last year, I don't know. But they have a great product lineup and aren't connecting. Maybe it's just the overall state of the market, but it does seem strange to me that they aren't doing better. Bad marketing and bad management I guess?


Yes, mostly bad marketing and bad management; Thom has written a lot about this. Of course declining revenue can make bad marketing even worse ...



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:49 PM
DAphoto77
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


One more thought. Last December I got an EOS M5. I never got used to the EVF. It is small IMO. I had a Sony with EVF. I never got used to it either. Neither one of them felt like an EOS. I just bought and SL2 for 549 US dollars. It is more capable than the many of the run of EOS bodies that I started buying in 1988. I did sports, weddings, newspaper work etc. with that gear that I paid a lot more than 549 dollars for. Although the build of the SL2 is not professional the pictures are. It has a 24MP sensor and dual pixel whatever. Canon put this pro-like stuff into a consumer camera. What will this do to gear prices in the long run? I hear of some pros already using the SL2. Since I got it the M5 is on the shelf. I do have more capable Canon gear for sports. I think the paradigm is changing under our very noses.

Edited on Sep 14, 2017 at 03:59 PM · View previous versions



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:56 PM
technic
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


azenis wrote:
It used to be only a handful of companies capable of designing lenses because the expertise it required. Now optical designs can be done fully on a computer and designers can actually "see" the performance of any particular design before a gram of silica is even touched. So even low volume manufacturers can afford the R&D on optical design.


Yes, optically R&D is now affordable basically even to 'startups' (some small companies make excellent lenses). However, this isn't about making a great lens, it is about producing a complete lens line and being able to sell those lenses at prices so that the mass market will buy them. That is the problem, especially because there is a HUGE existing base of lenses. Low volume manufacturers cannot afford to sell as the same prices as Canon. And this might even get worse (for the competition) if Canon succeeds in automating most of their EF lens production; others might not be able to pull this off because it requires massive investment and production numbers.

It would be different if lenses could be made at low cost with a basic 3D printer, or if we get 'fabs' like those for image sensors that build any lens design to very high spec for low price - but I don't see that happening in the near future. The entry cost for becoming a mass market lens manufacturer is still very high, despite much lower lens design cost.



Sep 14, 2017 at 03:57 PM
technic
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


DAphoto77 wrote:
One more thought. Last December I got an EOS M5. I never got used to the EVF. It is small IMO. I had a Sony with EVF. I never got used to it either. Neither one of them felt like an EOS. I just bought and SL2 for 549 US dollars. It is more capable than the many of the run of EOS bodies that I started buying in 1988. I did sports, weddings, newspaper work etc. with that gear that I paid a lot more than 549 dollars for. Although the build of the SL2 is not professional the
...Show more

SL2 indeed seems to be a great camera for the price, I'm considering buying it instead of my 80D. One has to wonder what Canon planned for this camera, but I'm sure they will keep protecting their more expensive gear - not so much with e.g. sensor quality but with ergonomics, build quality and special features (that maybe cost almost nothing, but are reserved for the high end models). Many pros would not even dare to show up with an SL2 even if they know it could do the job ;-)



Sep 14, 2017 at 04:01 PM
15Bit
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
Healthcare in my country is almost as expensive as in the US.


Interestingly, wikipedia disagrees...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

As do the World Health Organization

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?end=2014&start=2014&view=map





Sep 14, 2017 at 04:03 PM
molson
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


brian_sp wrote:

and we are suppose to believe you or anything you have to say because
because you are a canon fanboi?




I'm actually a Nikon user - I don't own any Canon equipment - and you don't need to believe me, just look at Nikon's recent financial statements (and yes, they have pictures, too - in case you haven't learned how to read yet...).




Sep 14, 2017 at 04:06 PM
Imagemaster
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


I think Brian needs to have a few more Molson's.


Sep 14, 2017 at 04:44 PM
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