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Archive 2017 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation

  
 
technic
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


gdanmitchell wrote:
Now, I can't argue that there could be specialized types of photography — for example, you cite insect photography — in which aliasing might be more of an issue and in which camera AA filtering might be the better solution. I don't do that kind of photography, so I can't say.


I frequently see 'aliasing' in my own macro shots and those from others, insect eyes and scales are a prime example. However I doubt that all of it is real aliasing caused by a mismatch of detail and sampling frequency. Some of this is probably caused by other physical effects that just happen to look similar in the image. E.g. I frequently see rainbow effects on the fine (dark) mesh in dragonfly wings, but there is no fine repetitive detail there that could cause normal moire; possibly the color is caused by some kind of optical interference. Would be interesting though to see what happens if you take the same shots with a camera without AA filter ;-)



Sep 18, 2017 at 12:42 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
I frequently see 'aliasing' in my own macro shots and those from others, insect eyes and scales are a prime example. However I doubt that all of it is real aliasing caused by a mismatch of detail and sampling frequency. Some of this is probably caused by other physical effects that just happen to look similar in the image. E.g. I frequently see rainbow effects on the fine (dark) mesh in dragonfly wings, but there is no fine repetitive detail there that could cause normal moire; possibly the color is caused by some kind of optical interference. Would be interesting
...Show more

In fact, I think you are right about some of the colors found in insect wings. I'm sorry I don't have a reference handy — again, insect photography isn't my thing — but I'm virtually sure that I read something about how the colors of at least some insects are produced and that it isn't in the way that many other colors are generated.

Oh, wait... I found one quick link that might be relevant: https://www.wired.com/2011/01/insect-wing-color/

Interesting point!

Edited on Sep 18, 2017 at 07:28 PM · View previous versions



Sep 18, 2017 at 04:34 PM
RobDickinson
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


fuji's 'innovation' leads to this..
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/23/fuji-cameras-produce-strange-purple-flaregrid-artifact/

My friend hits it all the time, response from fuji? dont shoot those kind of images.



Sep 18, 2017 at 06:49 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


RobDickinson wrote:
fuji's 'innovation' leads to this..
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/23/fuji-cameras-produce-strange-purple-flaregrid-artifact/

My friend hits it all the time, response from fuji? dont shoot those kind of images.


I've shot Fujifilm for nearly five years now and haven't encountered that once. Strange.

Of course, perhaps Fujifilm isn't the right system for your friend. Lots of other choices available.

Take care,

Dan



Sep 18, 2017 at 07:27 PM
RobDickinson
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


its only in certain situations on the 24mp sensor, my mate never had an issue with the 16mp ones.

its not user error. its a problem with the tech.

if you have an xpro2 x-t2 or x-t20 you can see it.



Sep 18, 2017 at 08:46 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


RobDickinson wrote:
its only in certain situations on the 24mp sensor, my mate never had an issue with the 16mp ones.

its not user error. its a problem with the tech.

if you have an xpro2 x-t2 or x-t20 you can see it.


I have an XPro2 and have used it since about the time it was released, making tens of thousands of exposures.I've never seen the problem.

I did read the guy's article about it. It seems that the problem he had happened when the sun was in the frame and almost directly behind a subject that was backlit. I can't imagine making a photograph like the one he uses as his example, at least not without using some kind of strong fill light on the subject.

So, the "problem" may well exist — I haven't actually set out to recreate the unusual conditions the fellow reports on — but it certainly must be a very rare thing.

Take care,

Dan



Sep 18, 2017 at 10:47 PM
Holger
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


RobDickinson wrote:
fuji's 'innovation' leads to this..
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/23/fuji-cameras-produce-strange-purple-flaregrid-artifact/

My friend hits it all the time, response from fuji? dont shoot those kind of images.


I have bought the A9 although I knew that in rare situation I could get a similar thing like this: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1492373/0

Phase detect pixel cause this banding. The article describes similar things with the x-trans and phase detect pixels.
It is happening, but rarely. As far as I understood and as others here said, with the Fuji it doesn't happen "all the time".



Sep 19, 2017 at 12:56 AM
charlyw
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
E.g. I frequently see rainbow effects on the fine (dark) mesh in dragonfly wings, but there is no fine repetitive detail there that could cause normal moire; possibly the color is caused by some kind of optical interference. Would be interesting though to see what happens if you take the same shots with a camera without AA filter ;-)


What you are seeing is pure aliasing - nothing else. And yes, even cameras with AA filter can show that to some degree because the AA filter is straddling the thin line between taking away too much sharpness and being just a nats wings width on the cautious side of that. But that effect goes from being an annoyance on an AA filter to being an image detail destroying full blown moiree on cameras that don't have an AA filter.

If you hand hold all your shots and you don't have small detail and you have a lot of atmospheric disturbances between you and your subject and you don't use the lenses below the diffraction limit of your camera sensor at pixel level then you can get away without an AA filter - but in macro photography all these things don't apply. You are using very sharp lenses, you don't have atmospheric disturbances between you and your subject, you normally don't hand hold the shot and you have ań extremely finely structured subject - thus for someone who does a lot of macro photography a camera without an AA filter is a surefire way of ruining a lot of shots!



Sep 19, 2017 at 01:34 AM
Holger
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


charlyw wrote:
What you are seeing is pure aliasing - nothing else.


http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/03/forget-butterflies-wasps-and-flies-have-hidden-rainbows-in-their-wings/



Sep 19, 2017 at 01:59 AM
charlyw
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Holger wrote:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/03/forget-butterflies-wasps-and-flies-have-hidden-rainbows-in-their-wings/



But not as described in the eyes of rather large insects...



Sep 19, 2017 at 02:07 AM
justruss
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


charlyw wrote:
But not as described in the eyes of rather large insects...


But the examples given (in the article and above) specifically mentioned wings, and explained that that not all of the effect seen in various body parts are suspected to be moire.

This is an intriguing example, because if we just reflexively call all of this moire-- we literally blind ourselves to the underlying reality that some of it may be moire and some of it may be an optical phenomenon occurring by design (or, rather, evolution as it were). Moire can be, in a way, in the eyes of the beholder-- perhaps squashing it when it is "supposed" to be seen is a mistake.



Sep 19, 2017 at 03:21 AM
alundeb
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Moire is not the same as aliasing and does not need to be caused by aliasing after sampling. Moire is a large scale pattern that origins from a small scale repeating pattern, and exists in the analog world.



Sep 19, 2017 at 03:26 AM
technic
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


justruss wrote:
But the examples given (in the article and above) specifically mentioned wings, and explained that that not all of the effect seen in various body parts are suspected to be moire.

This is an intriguing example, because if we just reflexively call all of this moire-- we literally blind ourselves to the underlying reality that some of it may be moire and some of it may be an optical phenomenon occurring by design (or, rather, evolution as it were). Moire can be, in a way, in the eyes of the beholder-- perhaps squashing it when it is "supposed" to be
...Show more

Yes, as I said I don't doubt that insect eyes and some body parts cause moire or aliasing because they have highly repetitive patterns and fine detail that could cause this. But in dragonfly wing detail (I'm talking about the hardened usually black 'veins') there is NO repetitive or fine detail that would cause 'aliasing' rainbow effects, at least nothing I can see in the images, the structures are all slightly irregular.

I have noticed the rainbow effect on dragonfly wings too (not on the veins, but on the transparent wing patches) but don't know if it is caused by the same principle as on wasps. You see it primarily when they have just emerged and the wings haven't yet hardened, so I guess this is interference caused by small irregularities on the hardening wing patches. As Dan mentioned, some of the brighter dragonfly body and wing colors are produced with interference and not with pigments (that's why they quickly lose color after dying); this has nothing to do with aliasing from the camera but it is used in several different ways because sight is so important for them. Some dragonflies have 22 different eye pigments, their capabilities for seeing color (sometimes including IR and UV) are far more advanced than ours and those of most other insects.

Also, if you look at sunlight reflections on dragonfly wings you can see all kinds of optical effects that are sometimes difficult to explain. The reflections dance, change color or change shape, they are not fixed (maybe related to vibrations in the transparent wing patches that act like small lenses or mirrors?).








Sep 19, 2017 at 04:07 AM
charlyw
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
I have noticed the rainbow effect on dragonfly wings too (


That's normal iridescence - and not a digital sampling flaw. Don't muddle up the issues!



Sep 19, 2017 at 04:26 AM
technic
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


charlyw wrote:
That's normal iridescence - and not a digital sampling flaw. Don't muddle up the issues!


The first image is probably normal iridescence, the second/third I highly doubt it. And again, I didn't say that these are digital sampling flaws, on the contrary. I wanted to point out that there are effects in macro shots that can look like aliasing but that are not related to digital sampling. Normally one could check if effects are visible in the OVF, but this isn't always the case if details are small and color effects are relatively weak.

I planned to post an example of the rainbow stripe effect on dragonfly wing veins but I don't have very good pictures yet, because you only see it in very specific lighting conditions; something for next year ;-)



Sep 19, 2017 at 05:33 AM
melcat
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
And again, I didn't say that these are digital sampling flaws, on the contrary. I wanted to point out that there are effects in macro shots that can look like aliasing but that are not related to digital sampling. Normally one could check if effects are visible in the OVF, but this isn't always the case if details are small and color effects are relatively weak.


Yes, this is a real problem for me. I don't have a deep knowledge of insects (I usually just photograph them as one of several subjects on an outback trip) and when you're working quickly and the insect is perhaps part of a larger image it isn't at all obvious what the true colours should be.

There are many thousands of insect species in Australia and most likely I'm trying to identify it after the fact, weeks later, at home, and the book doesn't have detailed photos for all of them. Even if it does, how do I know the photographer didn't use a camera without an antialiasing filter? After all, some of my flower identificatiob books have bad colours in the photos, due to old photos taken with Velvia or new ones in sRGB.

The last thing I need for this kind of work is a camera that *might* be introducing moiré effects.

(As far as I know, I've never seen it from my 1Ds Mk III, but I *have* seen it on my Sony RX1, which allegedly has an antialiasing filter.)


Edited on Sep 19, 2017 at 06:46 AM · View previous versions



Sep 19, 2017 at 06:44 AM
charlyw
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


technic wrote:
The first image is probably normal iridescence, the second/third I highly doubt it.


They are totally normal effects, nothing unusual about them and not even remotely linked to the digital capture device. Nice shots btw...



Sep 19, 2017 at 06:44 AM
charlyw
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


melcat wrote:
After all, some of my flower identificatiob books have bad colours in the photos, due to old photos taken with Velvia or new ones in sRGB.


The worst problems as far as I am concerned for identifying via books is the use of flash - either by you or the book.



Sep 19, 2017 at 06:51 AM
technic
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


charlyw wrote:
They are totally normal effects, nothing unusual about them and not even remotely linked to the digital capture device. Nice shots btw...


again: I never said it is related to the digital capture device.

But I'm also sure (some of) the light effects in the last pictures are not normal iridescence, because of the way the colors and shapes fluctuate. Maybe it's a combination of iridescence with some other (natural) optical effect.



Sep 19, 2017 at 10:44 AM
technic
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


melcat wrote:
Yes, this is a real problem for me. I don't have a deep knowledge of insects (I usually just photograph them as one of several subjects on an outback trip) and when you're working quickly and the insect is perhaps part of a larger image it isn't at all obvious what the true colours should be.

There are many thousands of insect species in Australia and most likely I'm trying to identify it after the fact, weeks later, at home, and the book doesn't have detailed photos for all of them. Even if it does, how do I know the photographer
...Show more

I haven't ever seen a case where moire or aliasing would put you on the wrong foot for species identification, but who knows ;-) There can be color problems with subjects in nature because of all kinds of reasons, and sometimes they are impossible to solve because e.g. iridescent colors cannot really be captured and replicated with normal display devices. Often such colors can change with temperature, angle of light and other factors. With some dragonflies I am still not able to produce image with colors that I consider close to real life ... using extended color space can help but it cannot fix the bigger issues.

Images from the analog era and from early digital cameras sometimes had color problems due to IR or UV light contamination, which is hardly an issue nowadays because of strong UV-IR blocking filters in most cameras. Also, if you don't know what light was used for your reference picture, or if you are using unnatural lighting for your own pictures, it can be difficult to judge.



Sep 19, 2017 at 10:54 AM
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