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Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation
  
 
scott f
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


I saw this link on Dpreview. What do you think? I can't help but agree, but it's hard to argue with a company that sitting on top of the hill.
http://projectrawcast.com/an-open-letter-beloved-canon-what-happened-to-your-innovation/



Sep 13, 2017 at 04:31 PM
15Bit
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Whilst i'm not going to say i disagree with everything written there, i do seem to have missed the paragraph praising Canon for implementing a long term strategy of updating and improving their lenses.


Sep 13, 2017 at 04:56 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Citation from the article: "But here is where things start to get a bit complicated – since the launch of the Canon 5DMK2 way back in March 2008 it has been extremely hard to be genuinely excited about any new cameras you have released. And here is why – the Canon 5DMK2 is in my opinion the last truly “innovative” camera you have developed and released. "


I could have written this one! Excellent article.

Canon might need to copy the marketing slogan from Leica "Das Wesentliche" which means reduced to the most essential.



Sep 13, 2017 at 04:59 PM
scott f
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


15Bit wrote:
Whilst i'm not going to say i disagree with everything written there, i do seem to have missed the paragraph praising Canon for implementing a long term strategy of updating and improving their lenses.


He does mention at the beginning that he believes Canon lens are the best.



Sep 13, 2017 at 05:33 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Seems like a few million people have been successfully taking great photos for over 50 years with Canon gear, despite Canon's lack of innovation.


Sep 13, 2017 at 05:46 PM
scott f
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Imagemaster wrote:
Seems like a few million people have been successfully taking great photos for over 50 years with Canon gear, despite Canon's lack of innovation.


The first part of your statement is likely highly correlated with the latter portion.



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:11 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


One huge flaw in that article is him complaining about AU prices. Just like we've seen in Canada since 2012 or so the exchange rate has inflated camera prices by 30% or more. When the 5D3 camera out there dollar, like ours was on par with US. But once 5DSR and cameras since then the price in countries other than the US has skyrocketed but not due to Canon raising prices in Japan or US....the exchange rate did that.


Sep 13, 2017 at 06:30 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Do Canon have a policy about forcing people to buy their gear I don't know about?

I think we have a choice. In fact lots of choice now. Don't like Canon, go buy something else

Canon still sell far more than anyone else because they cater to their market, which isn't generally the people who visit places like this. They know what they are doing.

The author of that article is looking at change for change's sake, which Canon just don't do. They don't change their body shape because the one they have works and is familiar, it's rather a pathetic piece of tripe IMHO

Edited on Sep 13, 2017 at 06:40 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:36 PM
dtolios
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


OK, i don't dissagree with the essense of the article (which is down atm), but what I've read and really kicked me in the wrong spot forces me into rant mode - again.


What I still cannot grasp is the fixation with a different mount should Canon opt for a FF MILC...
"oh Canon, I know it would hurt your EF lenses to go MILC" ... no FFS, NO. Either use a pass-through adapter ala EF-M->EF, or SIMPLY DON'T GO THIN BODY...

WHY ? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT?

To adapt old lenses? That is so petty ppl...if the body goes smaller, and you don't need an adapter, you will force the lenses to get bigger - pretty much "building-in" the length of the adapter or "mirror-box" that is removed. This distance between the lens and the sensor is not a redundant thing of the past.

Existing Thin-body MILCs prove that: Sony FE lenses are bigger, resulting in the same or longer combo when the lens is mounted, and so is the case with the Leica "L" mount and the T etc...you get a more "contoured" body, but the overall size is the FRIKKIN SAME. Weight savings are gained back in the lens side, and if you are actually saving on the combined weight is through a compromise in the battery or overall smaller body (grip, tactile controls, buttons etc) which typically leads to worse handling...

If you design a MILC and focus on proper ergonomics, YOU DONT GET A VASTLY SMALLER BODY. See the Olympus EM-1 II, for example, it is not tiny for the sake of it, it is sized as a proper camera, with a proper grip. The Oly, despite having "just" a m43 sensor is bigger than the A7RII which in turn was notably bigger than the A7R. The Oly is the size of a DSLR where it counts...





WHY?

BECAUSE 35mm SLRs were actually sculpted to be used by actual hands. Having a mirror box or not makes no difference in basic ergonomics for eye-level cameras.

It is so frustrating when you have otherwise pretty intelligent people repeating the same BS over and over and over. Wish we could have pocketable MILCs, wish we could have all kinds of FLs sized like the RX1R's lens or smaller, but ATM we CANNOT.

We are limited to large and heavy lenses if we want well-corrected large f/numbers in most FLs, and we need large grips that fill our hands properly to support that weight for proper and prolonged use. End of story.

Making half the body thinner than grip, gets you what? Do you save on the weight of air? or a couple of grams of magnesium or aluminum, only to add the same on the lens' side? So that you can have your romantic client-base adapt vintage lenses on? Really?

/rant



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:38 PM
Mike Tuomey
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


dhphoto wrote:
Canon still sell far more than anyone else because they cater to their market, which isn't generally the people who visit places like this. They know what they are doing.


+1

Some folks, especially enthusiasts, are predisposed to believe their own parochial views mirror the larger public. Common fallacy in understanding markets.




Sep 13, 2017 at 06:52 PM
 

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dhphoto
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Mike Tuomey wrote:
+1

Some folks, especially enthusiasts, are predisposed to believe their own parochial views mirror the larger public. Common fallacy in understanding markets.



What tends to irritate me is that people like the author of that piece seem to think they have a right to expect Canon to do what they want and produce new models just to suit them. That's not the way business works. Canon produce cameras to sell in their millions (mainly) that's called a success.

There are loads of fantastic camera systems out there, if you feel that strongly then change brands.


Edited on Sep 13, 2017 at 06:57 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:56 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Canon could have put a good sensor into the 6d2. Could have given it 4k video and a decent codec.

That's all canons latest release needed yet it fell short of expectations and the market.

Canon could already have the ff 5d4 sensor in an m5. They already have a lens adapter, but no.

Canon cameras are not bad and as I've said before they add up to very usable devices, more so than the spec list suggests. But innovative they are not. To some extent the gorilla doesn't need to but by not making an effort the gorilla often finds itself a dinosaur.

I for one find my mirrorless Sony a real fun camera to shoot with.

And considering this place started as a Canon centric forum the Sony image thread and forum is far more active. Why? Because they innovated and found a market that worked. Because Sony it was almost by accident true..



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:57 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


Canon does a tremendous amount of innovation, as judged by their prodigious patent portfolio. Canon's problem (at least for users, since it seems to be serving the company itself well) is in their product planning/sales/marketing department - they're the ones deciding what technology makes it into which products.


Sep 13, 2017 at 07:10 PM
howard
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


I only skimmed the article, but I think it's pretty well written. He didn't say Canon isn't good enough, just that it stopped trying to be better.

If one takes the fanboy hat off for a moment, one will see that he has a point.



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:13 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


dtolios wrote:
WHY?

BECAUSE 35mm SLRs were actually sculpted to be used by actual hands. Having a mirror box or not makes no difference in basic ergonomics for eye-level cameras.



Have you forgotten about rangefinder cameras? Very ergonomically made for hands....I have fairly large hands but don't see a benefit in using DSLR-sized cameras. Bigger is not better here at all - but I agree in your earlier point that the A7RII has increased in size compared to the A7R - unfortunately!



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:23 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


My ideal (Landscape) camera is a 3-4" touchscreen , 2 dials and about 3 buttons. Not really ergonomic for much else

The a7r2 has improved a lot over the mk1 I had a very usable camera.



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:26 PM
technic
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


arbitrage wrote:
One huge flaw in that article is him complaining about AU prices. Just like we've seen in Canada since 2012 or so the exchange rate has inflated camera prices by 30% or more. When the 5D3 camera out there dollar, like ours was on par with US. But once 5DSR and cameras since then the price in countries other than the US has skyrocketed but not due to Canon raising prices in Japan or US....the exchange rate did that.


I agreed with most of the article but to me that pricing complaint was also the most obvious flaw, especially coming from Australia. However, there is something fishy with Canon pricing outside the US as price changes in most areas outside the US are MUCH bigger than the exchange rate difference (or VAT changes) warrants.

But I guess it is take-it-or-leave-it Canon policy, probably they figured out that the average US buyer is very price sensitive in the sense that they buy new gear they don't need as long as the price is low enough, and that the EU buyers will complain about rip-off pricing but still keep buying Canon gear, although much less frequently ;-(
I know Canon is not the only 'electronics' company with such a business model ...



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:37 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


We (in NZ) get stuffed on pricing so much more than even Oz. Often its cheaper for us to fly to Oz and buy something there ( you can even claim the tax back when leaving..)

At a time when the NZD is strong, it sucks, its wrong, its why we all buy grey imports.



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:40 PM
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


The word 'innovation' has become a self-replicating meme like 'crippling' - but no-one knows what it really means. Canon are very innovative , it is just they don't try and create a 'Swiss army knife' of cameras whereas Sony have to to stay competitive.

But the artciel is packed with weirdness.
The 5DSR is like all other 5D models - of course it is !! Pros don't want to learn new interfaces and the recurring comments from pros that enthusiasts that I read are 'the 5DIV ius like the 5DIII but better!

He complains about the 5DIV price increase over the 5DIII - the 5DIV is cheaper (inflation corrected) than the 5Diii was on release. Where's the problem?

Similarly he compares the price of the new 6D2 with the price point of the 4-year old 6D. Do Nikon critics do go through the same self-flagellation or is this a peculiarity of Canon owners?

Then he criticises Canon for not having a 12-grand alterative to the Fuji That is a completely different market.

For years now, I have seen Sony and Nikon cameras released that have quirks offsetting their benefits. Yet every release from Canon seems to be panned by armchair critics, but anyone who changes to the new models says 'actually, guys, this is pretty good and I'm glad I changed'.

Canon's shortfalls are firstly that they insist on making their own sensors which actually is no bad thing now they have pretty much caught up in everything but ISO 100, and secondly their aim is to make their cameras easier to use and better imaging tools. For the latter they succeed way beyond Nikon and Sony do and that is why they are successful.

If you want to criticise Canon for their sensor, I have to ask how can Sony spend so much developing technically brilliant products but have such a godawful interface. Surely that is easier to solve than designing new sensor technology?



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:42 PM
technic
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Article posted on Dpreview re: Canons lack of innovation


dhphoto wrote:
Canon still sell far more than anyone else because they cater to their market, which isn't generally the people who visit places like this. They know what they are doing.


The same could be said (in the past) of many huge tech companies of the last 30 years that many people here don't even remember. This market strategy works until it doesn't and many of these companies ARE dinosaurs that go down when the market changes too much. I'm not saying this will happen with Canon, but with the current track IMHO it is a real possibility.



Sep 13, 2017 at 07:43 PM
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