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Archive 2017 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...

  
 
FFaccount
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


Is there any evidence, that the sensor is being produced by TowerJazz, other than Ken's hallucinations?


Sep 13, 2017 at 04:58 PM
JohnK007
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


One more thing I would like to add about "building off existing technology."

ALL camera manufacturers are doing this. I am not sure who built the first camera sensor ever, but Sony sure didn't build the first camera, lens, or sensor.

Nikon is "building on existing technology," like everyone else. Same with Canon, Olympus, Pentax, and Sony.

People always try to take away Nikon superiority (to make themselves feel better, I guess), but the fact is everyone is building on somebody else's technology. Cameras and lenses have been here for decades (centuries). Everyone is constantly developing spin-offs of something else. (Cars, boats, even pre-existing food ... like hamburgers.)

If somebody makes a great, great hamburger ... adding their own special ingredients to make it uncommonly-good ... and you sit down to eat it .... do you credit the "founder of the original hamburger" ... or do you thank THE CHEF that just handed you the best damned hamburger you ever ate, knowing that it tastes that good thanks to the chef's special ingredients

Face it: Nikon may not sell as many hamburgers as McDonald's ... but then again, McDonald's isn't where anyone who's concerned about *taste* goes to eat, if they want the best damned hamburgers either

Take a look at all the sensor ratings, and Nikon builds more of the top 20 sensors than any 3 other companies put together.



Sep 13, 2017 at 05:16 PM
Arka
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


JohnK007 wrote:
One more thing I would like to add about "building off existing technology."

ALL camera manufacturers are doing this. I am not sure who built the first camera sensor ever, but Sony sure didn't build the first camera, lens, or sensor.

Nikon is "building on existing technology," like everyone else. Same with Canon, Olympus, Pentax, and Sony.


Who suggested that a single camera company invented (and claimed in patents) every technology essential to making a sensor?

People always try to take away Nikon superiority (to make themselves feel better, I guess), but the fact is everyone is building on somebody else's technology. Cameras and lenses have been here for decades (centuries). Everyone is constantly developing spin-offs of something else. (Cars, boats, even pre-existing food ... like hamburgers.)

Rather than castigating everyone else for trying to "take away Nikon's superiority," you might want to consider whether you've invested a little too much of your own ego and well-being into this concept of "Nikon superiority?" Most of us here (myself included) use Nikon products to reliably create images that make us and others (including clients) happy. But I for one don't premise my happiness upon whether Nikon's sensors are "top 20," or whether someone else is making fun of Nikon. Nikon is not my mother or my first born child. And criticizing a company (or praising it) doesn't make me feel any better or worse. Using their products for the intended purpose and seeing them excel for that use certainly does make me feel better. Fortunately, Nikon products do just that.

Take a look at all the sensor ratings, and Nikon builds more of the top 20 sensors than any 3 other companies put together.

Rankings may be important in deciding where to get your law degree, MBA, or medical degree, but far less important when thinking about camera sensors (all of which in modern times are incredibly capable if you know what you're doing). Heck, when I moved over to Nikon, they did not have a single sensor with the resolution or high ISO capability of their nearest competitors, and had very few FX cameras in their lineup. At that time, you probably would've castigated me for making the terrible decision to move to the Dark Side! Look at the rankings, you'd say! Yet I made the move because Nikon had other things to offer, like great wide angle lenses. I made some images I'm very proud of (and have done well in other respects) using cameras/sensors that you'd no doubt poo poo as "poorly rated" or whatever.

I'm very pleased that they now (nearly a decade after I switched) have some great cutting-edge options - having cake and eating it too.






Sep 13, 2017 at 06:35 PM
aut0maticdan
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...




JohnK007 wrote:
Back-atcha: it's not exactly how you describe it.

Note the word "often" in your reference citation. Often does not mean 'always,' but sometimes.

This means it can go either way: some sensors are designed entirely of the customer's specs, other's build upon some of Sony's existing specs.

At this point, it is unclear exactly which it is, although Nikon directly said they designed their own sensor for the D850.

And, if indeed TowerJazz fabbed it, then the D850 sensor has nothing to do with Sony.


I believe what you're saying is true for the D810: Nikon extracted more out of the Sony sensor than Sony
...Show more

Curious is right, John. You are projecting quite a bit in your summary. Everyone should read the article. On my first read, I expected that the article would confirm the TowerJazz theory but far from it. If anything it hints at Sony involvement based on overlapping tech with the a7RII and the author outright rejects TowerJazz as the likely fab in the comments based on sensor behavior.

You also incorrectly credit Sony as the source of the quote about the 36MP sensor being improved by nikon for the D810. That came from Rishi.

I agree with curious that they are basically saying some companies contribute to the design of sensors they fab and those improvements are not shared with Sony Imaging. You are over emphasizing the importance of the word “often” considering this is a translation and the often could go either way—often they contribute to the design or often they design on top of our sensors.

I don’t fully get the obsession and personally would rather have my sensors fabbed by Sony than ‘TowerJazz’ considering Sony is the best. In the end all that matters is sensor quality, though.

I’m much more concerned about when my 850 will get here! Whoever is fabbing better get back to it!



Sep 13, 2017 at 08:13 PM
joefoo
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


This forum sometimes reads like the "What you should be shooting instead of Nikon forum" now sponsored by Sony. I for one welcome our one man volunteer auxiliary Nikon cheering squad. It certainly makes a refreshing change from the mirrorless uber alles crowd.


Sep 13, 2017 at 08:22 PM
Arka
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


I'm wondering if you're imagining this crowd. I've been on these forums for a very long time and I see people like you complaining a lot more about perceived mirrorless fanboys (and misinterpreting what people write so that they fit your preconceived description) than the actual mirrorless fanboys you speak of. Besides, how on earth can that debate trigger so much animosity? Use what you need to get your images created.

joefoo wrote:
This forum sometimes reads like the "What you should be shooting instead of Nikon forum" now sponsored by Sony. I for one welcome our one man volunteer auxiliary Nikon cheering squad. It certainly makes a refreshing change from the mirrorless uber alles crowd.




Sep 13, 2017 at 09:33 PM
Arka
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


aut0maticdan wrote:
I’m much more concerned about when my 850 will get here! Whoever is fabbing better get back to it!


Yeah me too!



Sep 13, 2017 at 10:16 PM
joefoo
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


Dear Arka,

As you have correctly surmised, everything I write is really directed only at you. As you are of such critical importance to me, I feel compelled to ask you to consult a physician before attempting to lift your D850 unaided.

I would beg you to consider not touching the ghastly thing at all, were it not for the desperate lack of information on how Sony cameras compare to Nikons. As you know, Sony users are so reticent it's hard to divine their feelings on the EVF/OVF issue, or Nikon's autofocus in liveview, for example. How do they feel about Nikon's video capabilities? I only read the Nikon forum so I have no idea - THEY JUST WON'T TELL ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Yours with baited breath,

J



Sep 14, 2017 at 12:02 AM
notherenow
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


JohnK007 wrote:
Take a look at all the sensor ratings, and Nikon builds more of the top 20 sensors than any 3 other companies put together.


Ok, where are these lists?

All I can find is DXO

https://www.dxomark.com/best-cameras-under-45200-dollars

and they currently have Nikon with 8 of the top 20, Sony with 9 and Pentax, Canon and Phase one with one each.

And Senscore


They have Nikon at 10 of the top 20 with Sony at 6 and Canon at 4 (but Pentax and Phase One are not rated there I think).
http://www.senscore.org/

They have not tested all the same cameras as DXO and have different criteria it seems.

I would be happy to own ANY of them though with all having different strengths.



Sep 14, 2017 at 12:12 AM
Arka
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


joefoo wrote:
Dear Arka,

As you have correctly surmised, everything I write is really directed only at you. As you are of such critical importance to me, I feel compelled to ask you to consult a physician before attempting to lift your D850 unaided.

I would beg you to consider not touching the ghastly thing at all, were it not for the desperate lack of information on how Sony cameras compare to Nikons. As you know, Sony users are so reticent it's hard to divine their feelings on the EVF/OVF issue, or Nikon's autofocus in liveview, for example. How do they feel about
...Show more

Your incoherent and inflammatory response perfectly proves my earlier point.



Sep 14, 2017 at 01:08 AM
joefoo
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


Happy to oblige!


Sep 14, 2017 at 01:17 AM
brian_sp
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


joefoo wrote:
Happy to oblige!







Sep 14, 2017 at 02:13 AM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


FFaccount wrote:
Is there any evidence, that the sensor is being produced by TowerJazz, other than Ken's hallucinations?


So far, all evidence points to Sony.

- It physically looks like a Sony sensor which is distinct compared to other brands. The packaging, layout, column parallel ADCs, and orientation of electronics look like a Sony EXMOR R.

- It is a dual gain sensor which is the product of a patent share between Sony and Aptina.

- It's BSI and nobody else is making large scale BSI FF sensors except Sony

- Nikon has a long history with using Sony, especially for it's higher MP cameras. By now, Nikon is very familiar with the Sony 'tool box' and they know exactly what they have to work with when designing a sensor. Even though it's Nikon designed, the go-to basics of what works best are likely a constant no matter who is making it.

- It once again has class leading performance, which so far is an area only Sony has been able to continue to dominate, presumably due to the fact that they pour way more R&D into sensors than anyone else. In particular, nobody else has even come close to the low ISO DR Sony gets out of their column ADCs. The chances of someone else being able to in a single try, match or surpass the culmination of Sony's sensor expertise and copy their exclusive technologies is so low, that to me that is perhaps the most likely reason it is Sony.

So if you add up all the evidence, IMO it is extremely likely that it is a Sony sensor, either by Sony directly or on the old Toshiba production line that Sony owns (but I don't think that one does BSI unless they changed it recently). If someone else is making it, they sure did a good job of copying Sony down to the last detail, and to match Sony's typical sensor performance on a first try would also be extremely unlikely.

We'll see when Tech Insights (formerly Chipworks) releases their report, but I will be shocked if it is not a Sony fab.



Sep 14, 2017 at 10:49 AM
JohnK007
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


notherenow wrote:
Ok, where are these lists?

All I can find is DXO

https://www.dxomark.com/best-cameras-under-45200-dollars

and they currently have Nikon with 8 of the top 20, Sony with 9 and Pentax, Canon and Phase one with one each.


You found them

I was a little wrong about DxO: Nikon has 6 out of the Top 10. So yes, that is more than Canon, Pentax, and Sony all have, put together.

I guess, once you expand to the Top 20, DxO gives a slight-edge to Sony ... but Nikon crushes Sony in the Top 10, which of course is the most important.

DxO doesn't give you a way to rate APS-C camera sensors against each other ...



notherenow wrote:
And Senscore

They have Nikon at 10 of the top 20 with Sony at 6 and Canon at 4 (but Pentax and Phase One are not rated there I think).
http://www.senscore.org/

They have not tested all the same cameras as DXO and have different criteria it seems.

I would be happy to own ANY of them though with all having different strengths.



With SenScore, it's the same thing: Nikon has the Top 4 FF sensors in a row of the Top 10, and 6 total out of the Top 10.

When expanded to the Top 20, it looks looks like Nikon has exactly as many Top 20 FF Sensors (10) as Canon and Sony, put together. (Looks like they didn't test the K1, but that would just move a Canon camera sensor down, not a Nikon)

Don't forget to check out SenScore's Top 20 ASP-C sensors

You will find Nikon has the Top 7 out of 10 in a row ... Sony has the Bottom 8/9 out of 10 in a row ... and Pentax with #10/10.

Canon ASP-C sensors don't make it to any part of the Top 10.

Of the Top 20, Nikon has 10 out of 20, Sony has 6/20, Pentax 3/20, and Canon 1/20.

So, yes, to make a slight revision of what I stated, Nikon has more Top 10 sensors than Canon, Pentax, and Sony put together ...



Sep 14, 2017 at 10:54 AM
Oscarsmadness
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


I find it odd how the forums are buzzing with sensor talk, and improvements to processing engines are comparatively non-existent.

I'm of the opinion that improvements to Expeed, Digic, Bionz, and whatnot have as much to do with sensor performance as the sensors themselves. And I highly doubt that any of the imaging giants are sharing info about processor design or the instructions that run on them.



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:15 PM
rw11
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


maybe a brief explanation about processing engines would stimulate more discussion?

then there is the BSI advance on the D850 (which Sony had a few years ago)



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:38 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


Oscarsmadness wrote:
I find it odd how the forums are buzzing with sensor talk, and improvements to processing engines are comparatively non-existent.

I'm of the opinion that improvements to Expeed, Digic, Bionz, and whatnot have as much to do with sensor performance as the sensors themselves. And I highly doubt that any of the imaging giants are sharing info about processor design or the instructions that run on them.


The Expeed processors have more to do with the JPEG engines (which have improved dramatically with Expeed5 since the D5/D500). Using the D850 as an example, it would be impossible to do what they accomplished without the many applications of cutting edge sensor technology. They increased resolution around 30% from the D810 while keeping low ISO DR the same, and improving high ISO and high ISO DR performance. That is no small feat. On top of all that they added an electronic shutter which typically hinders light collection, and they avoided that problem as well with their implementation of BSI technology. They wouldn't be skirting any of those issues with processing power. Both are important, but personally I am more impressed with sensor technology, especially when it's already so optimized that performance gains are that much harder to get.



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:40 PM
notherenow
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


JohnK007 wrote:
You found them

I was a little wrong about DxO: Nikon has 6 out of the Top 10. So yes, that is more than Canon, Pentax, and Sony all have, put together.

I guess, once you expand to the Top 20, DxO gives a slight-edge to Sony ... but Nikon crushes Sony in the Top 10, which of course is the most important.

DxO doesn't give you a way to rate APS-C camera sensors against each other ...



With SenScore, it's the same thing: Nikon has the Top 4 FF sensors in a row of the Top 10, and 6 total out of
...Show more

Interesting!

You sure you don't write the speeches for Kim Jong Un?



So, taking your (revised) logic a step further, most competitons award the top three and since Sony has 66% of the top three on DXO that must mean Sony is crushing everyone (including Nikon), No?

And since the silver medal position is often called first loser, I guess Sony having 100% of the top spot is also crushing Nikon?

Oh and out of Nikon, Sony and Canon, Canon has the LOWEST rated camera (G9) on DXO too just in front of Nikon (P6000).

BTW, I could not actually care less about the lists as I use the camera I want (regardless of who makes it) that suits me, that is not currently Nikon but it has been previously and may well be again at some point. I find DXO to be useful but not gospel.

Thanks for the laugh.



Sep 14, 2017 at 07:58 PM
steve807
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


I feel completely left out since my D7100 has a Toshiba sensor. Or is it a Nikon?


Sep 14, 2017 at 09:03 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · The Truth about Nikon Sensors (finally) ... for All the Sony Fanboys ...


steve807 wrote:
I feel completely left out since my D7100 has a Toshiba sensor. Or is it a Nikon?


Fabricated by Toshiba, made to Nikon's requirements.



Sep 15, 2017 at 09:36 AM
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